Why Dany and Khal Drogo’s Wedding Night Is So Bitterly Disappointing.

[bilplat]

I think that you're too strongly/misguidedly characterizing Dany as fearful of Drogo. Prior to Dany riding her new philly, all the fear of Drogo is instilled by Viserys. Viserys is the real abuser of Dany. Viserys is the one who makes Dany believe that she will be treated as property by Drogo; Viserys is the one who makes her believe she is a child, while she does not think of herself as a child in Drogo's presence ("Drogo stepped forward and put his hands on her waist. He lifted her up as easily as if she were a child and set her on the thin Dothraki saddle..." then later, after Viserys threatens Dany to please Drogo, "The fear came back to her then, with her brother’s words. She felt like a child once more, only thirteen and all alone, not ready for what was about to happen to her.")

I see the sex scene and Dany's willingness in it as more of a reflection of Dany and Visery's relationship. In the very drawn out foreplay ("It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts."), the blindfold is being taken off Dany. She realizes that it is her brother's delusions that she has been blindfolded with. When the blindfold is gone, she simply sees her new husband on her wedding night. She has already been introduced and acclimated to the idea that a marriage needs to be consummated, so she willingly takes part.

In summary, Dany is a frightened and abused child, yes. But she is frightened of her brother's iluusion of Drogo, not Drogo himself. When the illusion is destroyed, she sees Drogo for what he is in that moment: a tender husband on their wedding night. She accepts her situation, which is to consummate the marriage. Had Drogo fulfilled Visery's illusions and acted like a brute and rapist from the beginning of their first sexual encounter, I think that Dany would've treated the experience as rape.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 hour ago, bilplat said:

I think that you're too strongly/misguidedly characterizing Dany as fearful of Drogo. Prior to Dany riding her new philly, all the fear of Drogo is instilled by Viserys. Viserys is the real abuser of Dany. Viserys is the one who makes Dany believe that she will be treated as property by Drogo; Viserys is the one who makes her believe she is a child, while she does not think of herself as a child in Drogo's presence ("Drogo stepped forward and put his hands on her waist. He lifted her up as easily as if she were a child and set her on the thin Dothraki saddle..." then later, after Viserys threatens Dany to please Drogo, "The fear came back to her then, with her brother’s words. She felt like a child once more, only thirteen and all alone, not ready for what was about to happen to her.")

I see the sex scene and Dany's willingness in it as more of a reflection of Dany and Visery's relationship. In the very drawn out foreplay ("It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts."), the blindfold is being taken off Dany. She realizes that it is her brother's delusions that she has been blindfolded with. When the blindfold is gone, she simply sees her new husband on her wedding night. She has already been introduced and acclimated to the idea that a marriage needs to be consummated, so she willingly takes part.

In summary, Dany is a frightened and abused child, yes. But she is frightened of her brother's iluusion of Drogo, not Drogo himself. When the illusion is destroyed, she sees Drogo for what he is in that moment: a tender husband on their wedding night. She accepts her situation, which is to consummate the marriage. Had Drogo fulfilled Visery's illusions and acted like a brute and rapist from the beginning of their first sexual encounter, I think that Dany would've treated the experience as rape.

I would be more accepting of your explanation if the next page didn’t have Dany describing Drogo forcefully riding her from behind while she screamed and sobbed into her pillow and wished that she could die. Any hope or symbolism established during the wedding night, was rendered useless.

 

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.“Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night.

 

This violent description of their following sexual encounters contradicts any set up from the wedding night of Drogo being 1) a tender husband, 2) caring about Dany’s feelings, 3)The removal of her blindfold being the start of a change in Dany’s relationship with Khal Drogo.

It was actually Doreah’s advice that was the catalyst in changing their relationship, not Khal Drogo’s uncharacteristic ‘tenderness' on the wedding night.

So it just ends up seeming like the wedding night was a weird passage written JUST SO Daenerys wouldn’t get raped, even if it was out of character and inconsistent.

I understand George RR Martin being unwilling to have Dany/Khal Drogo’s first encounter be a violent one, but the way he achieved it wasn’t believable or earned.

[Swagwell]

Khal Drogo was just breaking her in gently, I guess? 

 

[WSmith84]

I have to agree. If GRRM wanted to show Drogo's tender side and (over the course of the book) show Dany's increasing bravery and so on, he could have had Drogo simply sit with Daenerys that night and have their first night of sex together in a later date with Daenerys initiating it. It's also very strange that Drogo then proceeds to clearly rape Dany the next few weeks. It makes the romance rather hard to swallow.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 minutes ago, Swagwell said:

Khal Drogo was just breaking her in gently, I guess? 

 

Well he is a horselord and they do treat their women like horses, the ones they like anyway. Oddly enough yours might actually be the best explanation the more I think about it.

[bilplat]

26 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

I would be more accepting of your explanation if the next page didn’t have Dany describing Drogo forcefully riding her from behind while she screamed and sobbed into her pillow and wished that she could die. Any hope or symbolism established during the wedding night, was rendered useless.

 

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.“Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night.

 

This violent description of their following sexual encounters contradicts any set up from the wedding night of Drogo being 1) a tender husband, 2) caring about Dany’s feelings, 3)The removal of her blindfold being the start of a change in Dany’s relationship with Khal Drogo.

It was actually Doreah’s advice that was the catalyst in changing their relationship, not Khal Drogo’s uncharacteristic ‘tenderness' on the wedding night.

So it just ends up seeming like the wedding night was a weird passage written JUST SO Daenerys wouldn’t get raped, even if it was out of character and inconsistent.

I understand George RR Martin being unwilling to have Dany/Khal Drogo’s first encounter be a violent one, but the way he achieved it wasn’t believable or earned.

Dany deciding to kill herself is not only the product of the physical sex. Your quote doesn't show the paragraph separation between "...hurting too much for sleep" and "Day followed day...". I see her brief desire for death as the culmination of physical pain, not only coming from her nighttime experiences with Drogo, but also from riding with the khalasar: "The khalasar had broken camp the morning after her wedding, moving east toward Vaes Dothrak, and by the third day Dany thought she was going to die. Saddle sores opened on her bottom, hideous and bloody. Her thighs were chafed raw, her hands blistered from the reins, the muscles of her legs and back so wracked with pain that she could scarcely sit. By the time dusk fell, her handmaids would need to help her down from her mount."

I disagree with "It was actually Doreah’s advice that was the catalyst in changing their relationship". I think it was her getting over the pain that accompanies riding a horse all day for weeks on end. She (arguably) has a dragon dream, and from then on, "From that hour onward, each day was easier than the one before it. Her legs grew stronger; her blisters burst and her hands grew callused; her soft thighs toughened, supple as leather." After her "dragon dream" she "began to find pleasure even in her nights, and if she still cried out when Drogo took her, it was not always in pain."  Also after this, she even stands up to Viserys, resulting in him walking at the end of the khalasar.

I see the wedding night as the catalyst for Dany realizing just what a toxic influence Viserys is. After her wedding night, she adopts the Dothraki way. Yes, it is painful, but she persists and goes through major character development.

[bilplat]

20 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I have to agree. If GRRM wanted to show Drogo's tender side and (over the course of the book) show Dany's increasing bravery and so on, he could have had Drogo simply sit with Daenerys that night and have their first night of sex together in a later date with Daenerys initiating it. It's also very strange that Drogo then proceeds to clearly rape Dany the next few weeks. It makes the romance rather hard to swallow.

I know this is hugely controversial, but how is it "clearly rape"? Where is Dany's lack of consent? Where does it say she is unwilling? Just because it is violent does not mean it is rape.

[myth-taken]

4 hours ago, bilplat said:

I know this is hugely controversial, but how is it "clearly rape"? Where is Dany's lack of consent? Where does it say she is unwilling? Just because it is violent does not mean it is rape.

Was Dany asked? Did Drogo make sure she wanted to have sex or did he just forge ahead without bothering to ask, because in his culture, it didn't matter if women wanted to or not?

Just because Dany didn't say no, doesn't mean it was consensual. 

[bilplat]

51 minutes ago, myth-taken said:

Was Dany asked? Did Drogo make sure she wanted to have sex or did he just forge ahead without bothering to ask, because in his culture, it didn't matter if women wanted to or not?

Just because Dany didn't say no, doesn't mean it was consensual. 

You're absolutely right. Had this been completely ethical and moral, Drogo would have made sure that Dany was a willing partner in their encounters. Unfortunately, the (fictitious) culture of the Dothraki, and most of Planetos, dictates that after a marriage, the husband can claim his right. Fortunately, in our society, we know that acts such as "claiming a man's right" constitute rape.

Here's the passage from aGoT:

"At first it had not come easy. The khalasar had broken camp the morning after her wedding, moving east toward Vaes Dothrak, and by the third day Dany thought she was going to die. Saddle sores opened on her bottom, hideous and bloody. Her thighs were chafed raw, her hands blistered from the reins, the muscles of her legs and back so wracked with pain that she could scarcely sit. By the time dusk fell, her handmaids would need to help her down from her mount.

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night . . .

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again."

Here's my take:

She's just in pain all over from the Dothraki lifestyle. She could "scarcely sit" because of riding. Yes, Dany experiences pain when they have sex. What 13-year old would not experience pain during sex with a person who most likely has a large member? Especially in the just 3 nights following their marriage night during which she lost her virginity. I can only hope I am not wrong, but I think Dany would've put up - and therefore describe it in her POV - a fight if she was unwilling.

Fortunately, she has a dragon dream, in which she is engulfed in the fire from a black dragon, ending up feeling "strong and new and fierce." She adapts to the Dothraki lifestyle and comes to enjoy it, even the nights. She even shortly comes to take control of her relationship with Viserys, shoving him and securing his place walking behind the khalasar.

I like to look at her first few chapters as a huge development for her. Before her marriage, she's a pawn in her own life, subject to Viserys terror. She is freed of this by immersing herself in the Dothraki lifestyle, in part because of her character development in the dragon dreams, and also because of the support of the Drogo and his men. She even comes to think of Drogo as her "sun and stars."

[bilplat]

1 hour ago, myth-taken said:

Was Dany asked? Did Drogo make sure she wanted to have sex or did he just forge ahead without bothering to ask, because in his culture, it didn't matter if women wanted to or not?

Just because Dany didn't say no, doesn't mean it was consensual. 

I am very glad you created an account to post this. It is very easy to forget that Planetos is hugely immoral, even where marriages are concerned. It is very easy to forget just how many Westerosi people are unwillingly forced into marriages and brutally raped. 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

6 hours ago, bilplat said:

Dany deciding to kill herself is not only the product of the physical sex. Your quote doesn't show the paragraph separation between "...hurting too much for sleep" and "Day followed day...". I see her brief desire for death as the culmination of physical pain, not only coming from her nighttime experiences with Drogo, but also from riding with the khalasar: "The khalasar had broken camp the morning after her wedding, moving east toward Vaes Dothrak, and by the third day Dany thought she was going to die. Saddle sores opened on her bottom, hideous and bloody. Her thighs were chafed raw, her hands blistered from the reins, the muscles of her legs and back so wracked with pain that she could scarcely sit. By the time dusk fell, her handmaids would need to help her down from her mount."

I disagree with "It was actually Doreah’s advice that was the catalyst in changing their relationship". I think it was her getting over the pain that accompanies riding a horse all day for weeks on end. She (arguably) has a dragon dream, and from then on, "From that hour onward, each day was easier than the one before it. Her legs grew stronger; her blisters burst and her hands grew callused; her soft thighs toughened, supple as leather." After her "dragon dream" she "began to find pleasure even in her nights, and if she still cried out when Drogo took her, it was not always in pain."  Also after this, she even stands up to Viserys, resulting in him walking at the end of the khalasar.

I see the wedding night as the catalyst for Dany realizing just what a toxic influence Viserys is. After her wedding night, she adopts the Dothraki way. Yes, it is painful, but she persists and goes through major character development.

• I don’t deny that Dany repeatedly reminding herself “I am the blood of the dragon,”; having dragon eggs gifted to her, and having magic dreams about dragons that somehow healed her pain, awoke in her an inner strength and willpower to survive by adapting to the Dothraki way, but my original point still stands. The wedding night was grossly inconsistent and out of character for both Dany and Drogo. It wasn’t a natural or flowing moment that was earned between these two characters who didn’t know each other, didn’t understand each other, didn’t care for each other, or trust each other.

 

If I ignore the fact that the behavior of the characters didn’t make sense and Khal Drogo, (a hard and unsentimental Dothraki warlord who came from a culture where the females are subjected to the sexual advances of any warrior whether they will it or not) for some weird reason went out of his way to comfort a crying girl and be “tender” with her only to revert back to the hard, cold, brutal Dothraki warrior who continuously ignores her and doesn’t spare a thought for her feelings when he brutally rides her, I still would think the wedding night scene was pointless.

 

• Furthermore, it wasn’t the wedding night that was the catalyst for Dany realizing how toxic and worthless Viserys was, it was 1) her title and position as Khaleesi. 2) Being able to issue commands and have them followed. 3) The ‘Silver’ which granted her a freedom that she had never experienced before, and a feeling of fearlessness as she rode her horse over dangerous and risky slopes.

 

• But the true catalyst was after Viserys attacked her, delusional and ranting, unwilling to accept her position as Khaleesi. ---->

 

Viserys came upon her as sudden as a summer storm, his horse rearing beneath him as he reined up too hard. “You dare!” he screamed at her. “You give commands to me? To me?” He vaulted off the horse, stumbling as he landed. His face was flushed as he struggled back to his feet. He grabbed her, shook her. “Have you forgotten who you are? Look at you. Look at you!”

 

Dany did not need to look. She was barefoot, with oiled hair, wearing Dothraki riding leathers and a painted vest given her as a bride gift. She looked as though she belonged here. Viserys was soiled and stained in city silks and ringmail.

 

He was still screaming. “You do not command the dragon. Do you understand? I am the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, I will not hear orders from some horselord’s slut, do you hear me?” His hand went under her vest, his fingers digging painfully into her breast. “Do you hear me?”

 

Dany shoved him away, hard. Viserys stared at her, his lilac eyes incredulous. She had never defied him. Never fought back. Rage twisted his features. He would hurt her now, and badly, she knew that.

 

Crack. The whip made a sound like thunder. The coil took Viserys around the throat and yanked him backward. He went sprawling in the grass, stunned and choking. The Dothraki riders hooted at him as he struggled to free himself. The one with the whip, young Jhogo, rasped a question. Dany did not understand his words, but by then Irri was there, and Ser Jorah, and the rest of her khas.

 

****..

He lay on the ground, sucking in air noisily, red-faced and sobbing. He was a pitiful thing. He had always been a pitiful thing. Why had she never seen that before? There was a hollow place inside her where her fear had been. “Take his horse,” Dany commanded Ser Jorah. Viserys gaped at her. He could not believe what he was hearing; nor could Dany quite believe what she was saying. Yet the words came. “Let my brother walk behind us back to the khalasar.”

 

• All of the previous times Viserys had hurt her, she never had the power to fight back. No one was ever there to protect her, she was under his control. But now Dany had the khas protecting her, their Khaleesi, and as she watched Viserys sobbing on the floor, she realized, truly, how pathetic he was.

 

Also, Ser Jorah’s words were also a major catalyst for Dany realizing how toxic, weak and pathetic Viserys was –-→

 

“I hit him,” she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. “Ser Jorah, do you think... he’ll be so angry when he gets back. She shivered. “I woke the dragon, didn’t I?”

Ser Jorah snorted. “Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake.”

His blunt words startled her. It seemed as though all the things she had always believed were suddenly called into question.

 

 

Dany rode close beside him. “Still,” she said, “the common people are waiting for him. Magister Illyrio says they are sewing dragon banners and praying for Viserys to return from across the narrow sea to free them.”

“The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,” Ser Jorah told her. “It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.” He gave a shrug. “They never are.”

Dany rode along quietly for a time, working his words like a puzzle box. It went against everything that Viserys had ever told her to think that the people could care so little whether a true king or a usurper reigned over them. Yet the more she thought on Jorah’s words, the more they rang of truth.

 

•The way the wedding night played out didn’t have any affect on her eventual realization. The wedding scene could have been written in a more realistic way that was true to the two characters and Dany would still have had to deal with Viserys’ abuse, leading to the events that played out (khals attacking Viserys), ending with her conversation with Jorah, and finally Dany’s revelation about Viserys.

[Davjos]

Just to respond to the ongoing discussion. It's probably impossible to rape your wife in the legal sense in Planetos (just as it was emberassingly long in the US). 

Btw OP really looking forward to your response on the points I preciously stated:

- unreliable narrator. 

- she knew she was expected to consumate the marriage

- wetness does not equal arousal

 

 

[bilplat]

21 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

• I don’t deny that Dany repeatedly reminding herself “I am the blood of the dragon,”; having dragon eggs gifted to her, and having magic dreams about dragons that somehow healed her pain, awoke in her an inner strength and willpower to survive by adapting to the Dothraki way, but my original point still stands. The wedding night was grossly inconsistent and out of character for both Dany and Drogo. It wasn’t a natural or flowing moment that was earned between these two characters who didn’t know each other, didn’t understand each other, didn’t care for each other, or trust each other.

 

If I ignore the fact that the behavior of the characters didn’t make sense and Khal Drogo, (a hard and unsentimental Dothraki warlord who came from a culture where the females are subjected to the sexual advances of any warrior whether they will it or not) for some weird reason went out of his way to comfort a crying girl and be “tender” with her only to revert back to the hard, cold, brutal Dothraki warrior who continuously ignores her and doesn’t spare a thought for her feelings when he brutally rides her, I still would think the wedding night scene was pointless.

 

• Furthermore, it wasn’t the wedding night that was the catalyst for Dany realizing how toxic and worthless Viserys was, it was 1) her title and position as Khaleesi. 2) Being able to issue commands and have them followed. 3) The ‘Silver’ which granted her a freedom that she had never experienced before, and a feeling of fearlessness as she rode her horse over dangerous and risky slopes.

 

• But the true catalyst was after Viserys attacked her, delusional and ranting, unwilling to accept her position as Khaleesi. ---->

 

Viserys came upon her as sudden as a summer storm, his horse rearing beneath him as he reined up too hard. “You dare!” he screamed at her. “You give commands to me? To me?” He vaulted off the horse, stumbling as he landed. His face was flushed as he struggled back to his feet. He grabbed her, shook her. “Have you forgotten who you are? Look at you. Look at you!”

 

Dany did not need to look. She was barefoot, with oiled hair, wearing Dothraki riding leathers and a painted vest given her as a bride gift. She looked as though she belonged here. Viserys was soiled and stained in city silks and ringmail.

 

He was still screaming. “You do not command the dragon. Do you understand? I am the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, I will not hear orders from some horselord’s slut, do you hear me?” His hand went under her vest, his fingers digging painfully into her breast. “Do you hear me?”

 

Dany shoved him away, hard. Viserys stared at her, his lilac eyes incredulous. She had never defied him. Never fought back. Rage twisted his features. He would hurt her now, and badly, she knew that.

 

Crack. The whip made a sound like thunder. The coil took Viserys around the throat and yanked him backward. He went sprawling in the grass, stunned and choking. The Dothraki riders hooted at him as he struggled to free himself. The one with the whip, young Jhogo, rasped a question. Dany did not understand his words, but by then Irri was there, and Ser Jorah, and the rest of her khas.

 

****..

He lay on the ground, sucking in air noisily, red-faced and sobbing. He was a pitiful thing. He had always been a pitiful thing. Why had she never seen that before? There was a hollow place inside her where her fear had been. “Take his horse,” Dany commanded Ser Jorah. Viserys gaped at her. He could not believe what he was hearing; nor could Dany quite believe what she was saying. Yet the words came. “Let my brother walk behind us back to the khalasar.”

 

• All of the previous times Viserys had hurt her, she never had the power to fight back. No one was ever there to protect her, she was under his control. But now Dany had the khas protecting her, their Khaleesi, and as she watched Viserys sobbing on the floor, she realized, truly, how pathetic he was.

 

Also, Ser Jorah’s words were also a major catalyst for Dany realizing how toxic, weak and pathetic Viserys was –-→

 

“I hit him,” she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. “Ser Jorah, do you think... he’ll be so angry when he gets back. She shivered. “I woke the dragon, didn’t I?”

Ser Jorah snorted. “Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake.”

His blunt words startled her. It seemed as though all the things she had always believed were suddenly called into question.

 

 

Dany rode close beside him. “Still,” she said, “the common people are waiting for him. Magister Illyrio says they are sewing dragon banners and praying for Viserys to return from across the narrow sea to free them.”

“The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,” Ser Jorah told her. “It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.” He gave a shrug. “They never are.”

Dany rode along quietly for a time, working his words like a puzzle box. It went against everything that Viserys had ever told her to think that the people could care so little whether a true king or a usurper reigned over them. Yet the more she thought on Jorah’s words, the more they rang of truth.

 

•The way the wedding night played out didn’t have any affect on her eventual realization. The wedding scene could have been written in a more realistic way that was true to the two characters and Dany would still have had to deal with Viserys’ abuse, leading to the events that played out (khals attacking Viserys), ending with her conversation with Jorah, and finally Dany’s revelation about Viserys.

Your whole point is that they acted out of character on their wedding night. Drogo, as far as I know, has never been married. It might have made sense in the past for him to take every woman he wanted and have his way, but can you not accept the idea that he might be smart enough, or it might be imbued in the Dothraki lifestyle, to respect the woman who will go on to, as far as he's thinking, to become a part of the Dosh Khaleen? Do you realize how revered the Dosh Khaleen are to the Dothraki? The wedding officially made Dany a Khaleesi, so don't think that her newfound power over Viserys is anything but a result of her marriage. Sure, she had dragon dreams, but without the bloodriders that became her protectors on her wedding night, Viserys would've twisted her nipples like so many times before.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

3 hours ago, bilplat said:

Your whole point is that they acted out of character on their wedding night. Drogo, as far as I know, has never been married. It might have made sense in the past for him to take every woman he wanted and have his way, but can you not accept the idea that he might be smart enough, or it might be imbued in the Dothraki lifestyle, to respect the woman who will go on to, as far as he's thinking, to become a part of the Dosh Khaleen? Do you realize how revered the Dosh Khaleen are to the Dothraki? The wedding officially made Dany a Khaleesi, so don't think that her newfound power over Viserys is anything but a result of her marriage. Sure, she had dragon dreams, but without the bloodriders that became her protectors on her wedding night, Viserys would've twisted her nipples like so many times before.

' but can you not accept the idea that he might be smart enough, or it might be imbued in the Dothraki lifestyle, to respect the woman who will go on to, as far as he's thinking, to become a part of the Dosh Khaleen?'

• But he didn't respect her. He acted out of character and then reverted.

That's another reason why the wedding night didn't make sense. Because both characters REVERTED to their original characterization.

Khal Drogo went back to not caring about Daenerys, her presence, her wishes, or her comfort.

Daenerys went back to being brutalized (only now sexually) as she sobbed and cry. 

Which begs the question: WHY have them behave so out of character if it changes NOTHING?

 

•To keep it simple, Dany and her relationship with Khal Drogo is not  believable to me. It was unrealistic from the start (wedding night). It happened too fast. It was romanticized rather than realistic (sold child bride). Their progress/story line was sped up and thrown at us rather than taking the time to develop the relationship and walk us through the ups and downs. 

By the third or fourth chapter she was calling him her moon and stars. Within four chapters of book one they were somehow madly in love.

 It just seems like a very poorly written love story that I cannot even take halfway seriously. And that's me keeping it simple. Not even bringing up Dany's past abuse and her situation as a child bride. Or her being willing to ride Khal Drogo outside and in front of everyone within three or four chapters of her being introduced to us.

It takes other major POV characters two or three books to undergo the development that Dany undergoes in two or three chapters.

•Her story line is all about symbolism with very little realism. My major problem is that she is not believable. Other characters I can find realism in and that allows me to relate to them, relate to their human struggles, and care for them. 

Daenerys' most human struggles as an abused child who was sold off was quickly rushed through.

Her situation as a child bride was romanticized and her fear and terror glossed over.

Symbolic dreams of dragons gave her strength to conquer and adapt quickly to a barbaric and harsh lifestyle.

Everything that made her story real was sped through. 

  

[Houseofthedirewolves]

2 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

Just to respond to the ongoing discussion. It's probably impossible to rape your wife in the legal sense in Planetos (just as it was emberassingly long in the US). 

Btw OP really looking forward to your response on the points I preciously stated:

- unreliable narrator. 

- she knew she was expected to consumate the marriage

- wetness does not equal arousal

 

 

I'm putting together a response. It will probably be up tomorrow.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, bilplat said:

accept the idea that he might be smart enough, or it might be imbued in the Dothraki lifestyle, to respect the woman who will go on to, as far as he's thinking, to become a part of the Dosh Khaleen?

But the days after the wedding night he didn't treat her with any real respect. He ignored her during the days then proceeded to savagely take her from behind while she cried in pain into her pillow at night.

I think that's one of the OP main points. Why treat her gently on her wedding night only to brutalize her in the weeks that followed? 

Drogo treating Dany like a horse might be the best explanation. Dothraki care for their horses as much if not more then they do for their women. Drogo may have thought to break her in gently the first night then after her body was used to him he would take her any way he wanted when he wanted after that. It's barbaric and horrifying, but then so are the Dothraki. If Daenerys ever gives birth to a girl I highly doubt she'd want her to grow up and marry a horselord.

[The Sleeper]

18 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Even more unrealistic was the barbarian Drogo's sudden tenderness in this situation.

This is the guy that happily kills men, rapes their wives and enslaves their children by the thousands. In whose culture a wife is worth less than a horse. His sudden empathy with his frightened child bride is totally unrealistic, in my view.

Not really, Drogo was seen to dismiss the healers to address the other wounded first and his relationships with his bloodriders seem genuine. He is a savage, barbarian raider, but a savage, barbarian raider who takes care of his own.

Other than that your horse analogy is not far off. The way he acted toward Dany in the wedding night, could be seen as breaking in a nervous new horse (I would imagine, having only seen a horse in actual life at a distance). Taking his time, allowing Dany to get used to his presence and her nerves to wear off. And after breaking her to saddle riding whenever he felt like it.

[ravenous reader]

17 hours ago, bilplat said:

I know this is hugely controversial, but how is it "clearly rape"? Where is Dany's lack of consent? Where does it say she is unwilling? Just because it is violent does not mean it is rape.

Submission is not equivalent to giving consent.  I'd say a person who is in so much pain and distress from 'being ridden' by another that she thinks of 'killing herself rather than going on' is not properly giving consent!  See quote below.  By analogy, Hodor is also not really giving consent to be 'ridden' by Bran (skinchanging as rape trope), although he is undeniably submitting to Bran's will from a position of abject helplessness, cowering in his corner at Bran's intrusion, instead of fighting him off the way Thistle the spearwife defended her body and mind to the death against Varamyr. 

But lest you feel too sorry for Dany, spare a thought for Drogo also!  Let's consider the inversion which takes place in terms of sexual and political power from a symbolic perspective:  First, Dany said 'No No No', Drogo was on top, he was the rider, Dany the ridden; and she was the one who smothered her cries into a pillow, wishing for death.  Then, she discovered the magical 'woman-on-top' position in which dragons are conceived!  From that day onwards, Dany was on top, she was the rider, Drogo the ridden; and ultimately, she smothered him to death with a pillow!  By the way, I find it very interesting that the last word Drogo ever uttered, before Mirri acting on Dany's behalf stripped that away from him too and reduced him to a lobotomised, castrated horse staring wordlessly at the sun, was 'No.'  Read that passage again -- it's clear to me that Drogo did not give his consent to the sorcerous blood ritual that Dany via Mirri foisted upon him, despite being coerced into submitting after putting up a feeble yet tangible resistance.  The upshot was Dany usurped his power in order to spawn shadows (the dragons), just like Melisandre draining Stannis of his life energies in order to birth the murderous 'shadow baby,' with the important difference that Drogo unlike Stannis did not give his consent to his part in the ritual.  Were Drogo's rights violated?  Sexual activity is not the only arena in which the ethical question of consent arises.  People should also have a right to choose how they die (as far as can be accommodated) and what 'medical procedures' they wish to suffer.  The way Dany and Mirri chose for him was wrong.

In a macabre twist, Dany also engages in 'foreplay' with what's left of Drogo -- echoing the 'breaking in' of the wedding night -- before she kills him:

Quote

AGOT - Daenerys IX

 

The memory of their first ride was with her when she led him out into the darkness, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man's life must be done beneath the open sky. She told herself that there were powers stronger than hatred, and spells older and truer than any the maegi had learned in Asshai. The night was black and moonless, but overhead a million stars burned bright. She took that for an omen.

No soft blanket of grass welcomed them here, only the hard dusty ground, bare and strewn with stones. No trees stirred in the wind, and there was no stream to soothe her fears with the gentle music of water. Dany told herself that the stars would be enough. "Remember, Drogo," she whispered. "Remember our first ride together, the day we wed. Remember the night we made Rhaego, with the khalasar all around us and your eyes on my face. Remember how cool and clean the water was in the Womb of the World. Remember, my sun-and-stars. Remember, and come back to me."

The birth had left her too raw and torn to take him inside of her, as she would have wanted, but Doreah had taught her other ways. Dany used her hands, her mouth, her breasts. She raked him with her nails and covered him with kisses and whispered and prayed and told him stories, and by the end she had bathed him with her tears. Yet Drogo did not feel, or speak, or rise.

And when the bleak dawn broke over an empty horizon, Dany knew that he was truly lost to her. "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," she said sadly. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When my womb quickens again, and I bear a living child. Then you will return, my sun-and-stars, and not before."

Never, the darkness cried, never never never.

Inside the tent Dany found a cushion, soft silk stuffed with feathers. She clutched it to her breasts as she walked back out to Drogo, to her sun-and-stars. If I look back I am lost. It hurt even to walk, and she wanted to sleep, to sleep and not to dream.

She knelt, kissed Drogo on the lips, and pressed the cushion down across his face.

 

In the end, it's difficult to say who was really led down to 'a darkling stream'... and who was 'broken'...

(Addendum:  Perhaps I'm only imagining it, but don't the names 'Drogo' and 'Hodor', Dany's and Bran's 'mounts,' respectively, sound similar?!  Is it just coincidence that both of these 'mounts' are reduced by the rider to saying only one word?  Or that the 'riding' or 'breaking in to the saddle' involves a death of sorts?  Could be one of GRRM's wordplays, you never know!)

Relevant quotes/posts to which I referred above:

17 hours ago, bilplat said:

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.“Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night.

 

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Other than that your horse analogy is not far off. The way he acted toward Dany in the wedding night, could be seen as breaking in a nervous new horse

 

18 hours ago, Swagwell said:

Khal Drogo was just breaking her in gently, I guess? 

 

 

[Dex the Dog]

 I would like to mention that what happens after their wedding night, Drogo and the rest of the dothraki probably don't consider it a rape. To them, a rape that "counts is a rape" is probably a humiliating and violent act that's done in a malicious or just unconcerned intent. I suppose they "rape-rape" their enemies, prisoners and women of defeated enemies, the family members of people they hold a grudge against etc. What happens after their wedding night is very likely, from Drogo's perspective, "normal sex". It isn't part of their culture to ask consent, he doesn't "actually harm" Dany (I bet they don't think bruises count)  they see enduring pain as a honorary, hardening experience and the two are married - so from Drogo's perspective, it "can't" be a rape. He probably thinks that he gave her a pretty decent introduction to sex and that it's just a part of learning the dothraki culture and ways to suffer at first, just like Dany suffers with horseback riding as well. 

From the perspective of modern western people, a ton of things from ASOIAF are absolutely fucked up. The characters value pretty fucked-up things, support pretty fucked-up customs and commit absolutely nasty deeds - but they are not modern western people. They have absolutely never heard of the declaration of human rights, they haven't even considered the opportunity of forming labor unions or LGBTQ+ activism groups, they don't know about the science behind genetics, they don't have modern law enforcement... They are medieval people struggling with issues like drought, famine, diseases, extreme poverty, civil wars and nasty supernatural fucking monsters. None of them has had the time or the interest to dwell in the rhetorics of rape in marriage.

[Joy Hill]

In the original draft, Dany was supposed to kill Drogo to avenge Viserys. Then, I suppose GRRM decided to tell the story a different way. But maybe some elements of the original draft remained and got mixed with the new ones, which might be one of the reasons why Drogo goes from gentle savage to brutal, inconsiderate lover. In any case, that infamous scene is icky (just like the whole Dany/Drogo relationship).