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How powerful is the Lordship of Dragonstone?


Nihlus

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7 minutes ago, Belgarad said:

If I was Stannis, I would have tried to convince Robert to keep the Prince of Dragostone as the heriditary seat for the heir to the throne.  That way he can still follow Robert's orders and root out the Targaryen loyalists from Blackwater Bay and then take up his rightful lordship of Storm's End once Robert has a child.  At that point Renly could be made castellan until the heir is old enough to take up his seat.

This requires Robert having half a brain ...

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4 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

This requires Robert having half a brain ...

Not really. From a strategic point of view Robert would have wanted the new Lord of the Stormlands to be  someone who could mend fences with the stormlords who were loyal to Aerys, or the neighbouring realms of the Reach and Dorne. Stannis was simply not the man for such a job. The charismatic young Renly was as we see from his strong relations with the Tyrells, Tarly, Rowan, Florents and Oakhearts. 

Had Stannis been given the Stormlands after the Rebellion there is no chance that Stannis would have achieved the same support from the Reach (and possibly the Stormlands) as Renly did. 

And Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea Islands was perfect for Stannis. They were the hardcore Targ loyalists, they would never have Robert's trust again (especially the Targ looking Velaryons) so Robert would have wanted someone like Stannis ruling them and commanding the Royal Navy. 

It is not hard to look for practical reasons why each brother was given their respective Lordship. Stannis would be no better off had he the Stormlands. 

 

And to answer OP's question it is, or potentially, one of the 10 most powerful seats in Westeros due the Lords Dragonstone rule over. Both the Tarhs and Velaryons were rich even before Targ rule. Maybe the islands were not as wealthy as in generations past but that could be worked on and it seems that the Lord of Dragonstone would likely generate more revenue than the Lord of the Stormlands. 

 

The big difference is military. Dragonstone does not have enough soldiers to conquer Kings Landing (though it is pretty obvious that Robert would never have considered that when giving away this castle) but it does have control of a Navy that is said by GRRM to be comparable to the Redywne and Ironborn fleet. Useless if your heart is set on attacking inland Westeros but powerful and influential to any loyal Lord serving the King of Westeros. 

 

In a War of the Five Kings scenario Storm's End is the slightly better Lordship. But i terms of a united Westeros the Lord of the Narrow Sea Islands is the superior seat

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36 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not really. From a strategic point of view Robert would have wanted the new Lord of the Stormlands to be  someone who could mend fences with the stormlords who were loyal to Aerys, or the neighbouring realms of the Reach and Dorne. Stannis was simply not the man for such a job. The charismatic young Renly was as we see from his strong relations with the Tyrells, Tarly, Rowan, Florents and Oakhearts. 

Had Stannis been given the Stormlands after the Rebellion there is no chance that Stannis would have achieved the same support from the Reach (and possibly the Stormlands) as Renly did.

At the close of the Rebellion Renly was 8? 10? years old. Any fence mending with Stormlands' Lords would have to be done by somebody else for at least six years.

Why should the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands need support from Lordly Houses of the Reach?

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3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

At the close of the Rebellion Renly was 8? 10? years old. Any fence mending with Stormlands' Lords would have to be done by somebody else for at least six years.

Renly would have been around the same age as Edric when he was given the Lordship and we see how Edric was able to charm any of the people he met in similar fashion to both his father and uncle. We also see the respect a young Bran had while serving as Castellan, 

Renly did not have to negotiate peace deals, that was already done, all he had to do was get along with the surrounding Lords and win their loyalty. Something that he clearly did well. 

3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Why should the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands need support from Lordly Houses of the Reach?

The King of Westeros needs that support and the Stormlands is their neighbour. Having a pleasant and nonthreatening Lord rather than someone who is perceived to hold grudges is better to build bridges.  

 

Renly and Stannis were simply better fits for the Lordships they were given. Robert did not want to depend on Renly to protect the Narrow Sea from potential attacks from the Targs and he did not want to depend on Stannis to forge goo relations with the most powerful realm in Westeros. 

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13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Renly and Stannis were simply better fits for the Lordships they were given. Robert did not want to depend on Renly to protect the Narrow Sea from potential attacks from the Targs and he did not want to depend on Stannis to forge goo relations with the most powerful realm in Westeros. 

Marrying Stannis to Mace's sister in 284AC would had greatly appeased the Reach?

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41 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Marrying Stannis to Mace's sister in 284AC would had greatly appeased the Reach?

The Reach? Of course it would. Do you think if he married a Glover it would piss off the North? The Reach would have been more than OK with the heir of the realm marrying a Florent noble. Men like Lord Hightower and Lord Tarly, who both have Florent wives, would have seen the potential benefits. 

 

They Tyrells obviously would have seen it as a defensive move should they chose to rebel, but the Reach on the whole would have been more pleased than angry with the match. 

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also think of how robet's mind works. he likes trophies. its part of that love affair he has with hunting. trophies prove your exploits. that why he kept the dragon skulls. even if he hi them away. they were the proofs to himself that he did conquer the dragon house. that why he gave dragonstone to stannis. it was stannis's trophy, his proof of taking the island. and with it being so historically and symbolically important, it was roberts way of honoring and rewarding his brother. but i dont think he explained that to stannis, so stannis saw it as an insult.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've put some more thought in:

If the Lord of Dragonstone has 100 knights sworn to him (he probably has more, since Stannis only listed those who'd rather read than fight) that implies two or three times that number for total "knight equivalents." Well trained and well equipped heavy cavalry; men-at-arms and such. For example, House Lannister mustered 3,500 men to put down the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion (the house itself, not it and all its vassals); only 500 of these were knights, even though we know that the average heavy cavalry percentage for the Westerlands army is 30% (of the 35,000 men Tywin fields at the beginning of the WOTK5, 10,500 are heavy cavalry) and Lannister, being a wealthy house, should be above that average. This is buttressed by the Field of Fire, where 9% of the Reach/Westerlands soldiers were knights, even though we know cavalry averages 25-30% of their forces from later events (Renly's mostly Reach army at Bitterbridge was more than 25% heavy cavalry). 

That would imply the Lord of Dragonstone has sworn to him ~300 heavy cavalrymen and 2,700 foot soldiers, plus 10 fully crewed war galleys with ~200 marines and archers (~1,100 oarsmen and sailors at about 130 men per ship, at least 1/10 of whom are marines per Victarion) and whatever sellswords he could hire with his likely considerable incomes (Dragonstone being a major port). Mercenaries are part and parcel of Westerosi armies (and real medieval armies), and we see them in both Robb and Tywin's hosts. Count those and the Lord of Dragonstone has apparently 5,000 soldiers (though only 400 mounted) and 10 fully crewed war galleys.

Another question: since the bulk of medieval trade is maritime, the relatively puny volume of land trade crossing the Twins made the Freys rich, and the Lord of Dragonstone has started least one busy port under his control, shouldn't he be personally wealthy? I mean obviously it's not like a prince would do much with it, but a lord with his own house would have different priorities.

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On ‎17‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 9:18 AM, Nihlus said:

I've put some more thought in:

If the Lord of Dragonstone has 100 knights sworn to him (he probably has more, since Stannis only listed those who'd rather read than fight) that implies two or three times that number for total "knight equivalents." Well trained and well equipped heavy cavalry; men-at-arms and such. For example, House Lannister mustered 3,500 men to put down the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion (the house itself, not it and all its vassals); only 500 of these were knights, even though we know that the average heavy cavalry percentage for the Westerlands army is 30% (of the 35,000 men Tywin fields at the beginning of the WOTK5, 10,500 are heavy cavalry) and Lannister, being a wealthy house, should be above that average. This is buttressed by the Field of Fire, where 9% of the Reach/Westerlands soldiers were knights, even though we know cavalry averages 25-30% of their forces from later events (Renly's mostly Reach army at Bitterbridge was more than 25% heavy cavalry). 

That would imply the Lord of Dragonstone has sworn to him ~300 heavy cavalrymen and 2,700 foot soldiers, plus 10 fully crewed war galleys with ~200 marines and archers (~1,100 oarsmen and sailors at about 130 men per ship, at least 1/10 of whom are marines per Victarion) and whatever sellswords he could hire with his likely considerable incomes (Dragonstone being a major port). Mercenaries are part and parcel of Westerosi armies (and real medieval armies), and we see them in both Robb and Tywin's hosts. Count those and the Lord of Dragonstone has apparently 5,000 soldiers (though only 400 mounted) and 10 fully crewed war galleys.

Another question: since the bulk of medieval trade is maritime, the relatively puny volume of land trade crossing the Twins made the Freys rich, and the Lord of Dragonstone has started least one busy port under his control, shouldn't he be personally wealthy? I mean obviously it's not like a prince would do much with it, but a lord with his own house would have different priorities.

Stannis has 100 knights that can read but either all his knights can read or he doesn't have that many who can't read; Stannis has fewer than 400 horse and Renly describes them as freeriders in boiled leather, so while Stannis has his knights, most of his cavalry is these free riders, not many, if any, knights apart from the 100. From history, Dragonstone itself has 30 knights as garrison (princess and queen) I doubt Stannis has many landed knights in Dragonstone (he'd have a few, Targaryens gave lands to dragonseeds or their mothers so they had some land) so 70 knights total for the few sworn houses would be a good figure . Velaryons had land enough for two port towns and at least two castles so They probably have around 30 as well, perhaps some more. The other houses are much smaller.

5000 men is Renly being "generous", He had 3000 men camped below the castle, his garrison (historically 430; 100 crossbowmen 300 men-at-arms, 30 knights) may or may not have been included to the count but mercenaries definitely were. World book says Targaryens had somewhere between a few hundred and three thousand when they first landed, this count includes Masseys, the house we don't know whether if sworn to KL or DS but I'll go for DS as their neighbours and also Aegon landing allies Bar Emmons are sworn to DS so makes sense for Masseys to be sworn there too. We get a clearer picture by Selyse after Battle of Blackwater, Stannis, with his 1300 men in DS and 300 in SE, has more men than Aegon did; meaning Dragonstone with all their vassals have 1500 men at best, only 100 of them knights. This is not counting the fleet of course.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis has 100 knights that can read but either all his knights can read or he doesn't have that many who can't read; Stannis has fewer than 400 horse and Renly describes them as freeriders in boiled leather, so while Stannis has his knights, most of his cavalry is these free riders, not many, if any, knights apart from the 100.

Renly can simply be hyperbolic. It would defy all precedents and logic if he only had 100+ anointed knights and no other heavy cavalry whatsoever. There should be men-at-arms, squires. 100+ knights is less than the 300+ he should have with the number of total troops he has, because his lands are coastal, but it's impossible for them to be the majority of his heavy cavalry period.

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From history, Dragonstone itself has 30 knights as garrison (princess and queen) I doubt Stannis has many landed knights in Dragonstone (he'd have a few, Targaryens gave lands to dragonseeds or their mothers so they had some land) so 70 knights total for the few sworn houses would be a good figure . Velaryons had land enough for two port towns and at least two castles so They probably have around 30 as well, perhaps some more. The other houses are much smaller.

5000 men is Renly being "generous", He had 3000 men camped below the castle, his garrison (historically 430; 100 crossbowmen 300 men-at-arms, 30 knights) may or may not have been included to the count but mercenaries definitely were.

5,000 is what he has at a later point from when he said he had 3,000. There's no indication Renly was incorrect, and a difference of x2 is not that hard to pick out with the number of scouts Renly has. Those 3,000 are probably his muster, and the other 2,000 either mercenaries or random Stormlanders.

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World book says Targaryens had somewhere between a few hundred and three thousand when they first landed, this count includes Masseys, the house we don't know whether if sworn to KL or DS but I'll go for DS as their neighbours and also Aegon landing allies Bar Emmons are sworn to DS so makes sense for Masseys to be sworn there too. We get a clearer picture by Selyse after Battle of Blackwater, Stannis, with his 1300 men in DS and 300 in SE, has more men than Aegon did; meaning Dragonstone with all their vassals have 1500 men at best, only 100 of them knights.

That was 300 years ago, Westeros's population was likely smaller than it is now (see also the Field of Fire, where the largest army the Reach had ever fielded was far less than 55,000, while in the series we see them gather close to 80,000 no problem). Additionally there's no indication Aegon's lands perfectly corresponded to the modern lordship of Dragonstone. Present evidence is all that matters beyond setting a minimum.

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17 hours ago, Nihlus said:

5,000 is what he has at a later point from when he said he had 3,000. There's no indication Renly was incorrect, and a difference of x2 is not that hard to pick out with the number of scouts Renly has. Those 3,000 are probably his muster, and the other 2,000 either mercenaries or random Stormlanders

 

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Shuffling along the gallery, they passed before a row of tall arched windows with commanding views of the outer bailey, the curtain wall, and the fishing village beyond. In the yard, archers were firing at practice butts to the call of "Notch, draw, loose." Their arrows made a sound like a flock of birds taking wing. Guardsmen strode the wallwalks, peering between the gargoyles on the host camped without. The morning air was hazy with the smoke of cookfires, as three thousand men sat down to break their fasts beneath the banners of their lords. Past the sprawl of the camp, the anchorage was crowded with ships. No craft that had come within sight of Dragonstone this past half year had been allowed to leave again. Lord Stannis's Fury, a triple-decked war galley of three hundred oars, looked almost small beside some of the big-bellied carracks and cogs that surrounded her.

...

It was an old grievance, deeply felt, and never more so than now. Here was the heart of his lord's weakness; for Dragonstone, old and strong though it was, commanded the allegiance of only a handful of lesser lords, whose stony island holdings were too thinly peopled to yield up the men that Stannis needed. Even with the sellswords he had brought across the narrow sea from the Free Cities of Myr and Lys, the host camped outside his walls was far too small to bring down the power of House Lannister.

Over the clatter of knife and plate and the low mutter of table talk, he heard Patchface singing, ". . . dance, my lord, dance my lord," to the accompaniment of jangling cowbells. The same dreadful song he'd sung this morning. "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." The lower tables were crowded with knights, archers, and sellsword captains, tearing apart loaves of black bread to soak in their fish stew. Here there was no loud laughter, no raucous shouting such as marred the dignity of other men's feasts; Lord Stannis did not permit such.

All from ACOK Prologue / Cressen.

Three thousand men. Only sellsword captains are mentioned in the table so their men would be out among the 3000 men. The rest of the men at the table are most likely Stannis' garrison so they are probably not included in the 3000 count.

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"Do you think a few bolts of cloth will make you king?"
"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king. All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I'll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me—freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won't survive the first charge of my vanguard."

 

5k is Rennly overestimating. I haven't found any reference of any new Stormlords or mercenaries joining Stannis. Masseys may or may not have joined him after his landing. I think it was before and Masseys are sworn to Stannis.

 

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Your Grace should go to Braavos with the banker."

"Is that your counsel? That I should flee?" The king's face darkened. "That was your counsel on the Blackwater as well, as I recall. When the battle turned against us, I let you and Horpe chivvy me back to Dragonstone like a whipped cur."
"The day was lost, Your Grace."

This is from TWOW sample in ADWD. Between Stannis and Massey. Can't find anything else on him to narrow down when he joined.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/19/2017 at 8:59 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

All from ACOK Prologue / Cressen.

Three thousand men. Only sellsword captains are mentioned in the table so their men would be out among the 3000 men. The rest of the men at the table are most likely Stannis' garrison so they are probably not included in the 3000 count.

 

5k is Rennly overestimating. I haven't found any reference of any new Stormlords or mercenaries joining Stannis. Masseys may or may not have joined him after his landing. I think it was before and Masseys are sworn to Stannis.

 

This is from TWOW sample in ADWD. Between Stannis and Massey. Can't find anything else on him to narrow down when he joined.

Those sellsword captains are likely the ones who own those Myrish war galleys Davos sees coming in. You'd need several thousand men to man those. 

I actually double-checked the 2005 RPG which had its numbers reviewed by Martin, and no, you're wrong here:

"The isle of Dragonstone can bring forth a small force of perhaps 3,000 men-at-arms and knights — 400 of which would be mounted. Dragonstone’s true power is in the fleet, which supports the bulk of the royal fleet. Dragonstone floats 160 ships, 80 of which are full galleys that dip 100 or more oars."

It's flat-out stated that the lord of Dragonstone can field 3,000 soldiers, including 400 mounted men. So A. all of the cavalry came from Dragonstone, and B. the foot soldiers (at this point at least) did not include a significant number of mercenaries. Also, an unrelated fun fact: the same booklet also confirms that the ships of the Iron Fleet do indeed dip 100 oars or more, putting them at similar size to the war galleys of the royal fleet.

 

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25 minutes ago, Nihlus said:

Those sellsword captains are likely the ones who own those Myrish war galleys Davos sees coming in. You'd need several thousand men to man those. 

I actually double-checked the 2005 RPG which had its numbers reviewed by Martin, and no, you're wrong here:

"The isle of Dragonstone can bring forth a small force of perhaps 3,000 men-at-arms and knights — 400 of which would be mounted. Dragonstone’s true power is in the fleet, which supports the bulk of the royal fleet. Dragonstone floats 160 ships, 80 of which are full galleys that dip 100 or more oars."

It's flat-out stated that the lord of Dragonstone can field 3,000 soldiers, including 400 mounted men. So A. all of the cavalry came from Dragonstone, and B. the foot soldiers (at this point at least) did not include a significant number of mercenaries. Also, an unrelated fun fact: the same booklet also confirms that the ships of the Iron Fleet do indeed dip 100 oars or more, putting them at similar size to the war galleys of the royal fleet.

 

I know that RPG and it has many nonsensical numbers. like Westerlands getting 50k, Vale, North and Riverlands getting 45k

I also doubt that sellsword captain would mean mercenary ship captain.

His 3000 is from his lands and sellswords. He has 100 knights who can read and perhaps some more who can't but his entire cavalry is 400 men and described as freeriders in boiled leathers so while Stannis has some 100+ knights, they are still outnumbered by fewer than 300 freeriders.

Selyse also states that Stannis has more men than Aegon had with ~1500 men. Aegon had Celtigars, Velaryons, Bar Emmons and Masseys with perhaps some other smaller, unmentioned houses. Stannis has more or less the same, with Masseys not being mentioned at the start but another house, Sunglasses stated, so it would be more or less the same.

Velaryons and Celtigars are both stated to have hundreds of men at some point or another with Dragonstone historically having a garrison of 430 without no talk of a levy (which wouldn't be much because of small population). I can see Stannis having some 2000 men with a population increase over 300 years and with the information we are given on the vassals but not much more than that because he already has 3000(3400) men to begin with, a good number of them being clearly mercenaries.

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I know that RPG and it has many nonsensical numbers. like Westerlands getting 50k, Vale, North and Riverlands getting 45kI also doubt that sellsword captain would mean mercenary ship captain.

There's nothing nonsensical about any of those numbers. In fact the numbers given for latter three are basically just repeating what Martin said about them each being able to raise around 50,000 (back when Dorne could raise that much). I also don't think it makes sense for them NOT to be mercenary ship captains, because those dozens of ships require thousands of men to crew and they would be fully within their rights to consider themselves among Stannis's most important sub-commanders.

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His 3000 is from his lands and sellswords. He has 100 knights who can read and perhaps some more who can't but his entire cavalry is 400 men and described as freeriders in boiled leathers so while Stannis has some 100+ knights, they are still outnumbered by fewer than 300 freeriders.

We never get a detailed breakdown on his cavalry, other than that there are at least 100 anointed knights among them (which given other figures implies 200-300 heavy cavalry overall). And it has already been confirmed that there was no significant number of mercenaries included in the 3,000, the Lord of Dragonstone can raise that much from his own lands.

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Selyse also states that Stannis has more men than Aegon had with ~1500 men. Aegon had Celtigars, Velaryons, Bar Emmons and Masseys with perhaps some other smaller, unmentioned houses. Stannis has more or less the same, with Masseys not being mentioned at the start but another house, Sunglasses stated, so it would be more or less the same.

1. We don't know who else he has, or if their lands have stayed the same. Certainly it seems likely that Aegon would have expanded the lands of people loyal to him at the expense of his enemies; it seems equally likely that the Crownlands would have a population and economic boom in the last 300 years (more so than the rest of the continent) on part of going from a backwoods province of the Stormlands to the trading and urban hub of the entire continent.

2. Why exactly are we assuming that the population, wealth, and social structure of a region has stayed completely static for over 300 years? 

 

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15 hours ago, Nihlus said:

There's nothing nonsensical about any of those numbers. In fact the numbers given for latter three are basically just repeating what Martin said about them each being able to raise around 50,000 (back when Dorne could raise that much). I also don't think it makes sense for them NOT to be mercenary ship captains, because those dozens of ships require thousands of men to crew and they would be fully within their rights to consider themselves among Stannis's most important sub-commanders.

We never get a detailed breakdown on his cavalry, other than that there are at least 100 anointed knights among them (which given other figures implies 200-300 heavy cavalry overall). And it has already been confirmed that there was no significant number of mercenaries included in the 3,000, the Lord of Dragonstone can raise that much from his own lands.

1. We don't know who else he has, or if their lands have stayed the same. Certainly it seems likely that Aegon would have expanded the lands of people loyal to him at the expense of his enemies; it seems equally likely that the Crownlands would have a population and economic boom in the last 300 years (more so than the rest of the continent) on part of going from a backwoods province of the Stormlands to the trading and urban hub of the entire continent.

2. Why exactly are we assuming that the population, wealth, and social structure of a region has stayed completely static for over 300 years? 

 

Doing a search on search of ice and fire with the words "sellsword ship", "sellsword captain" "sellsword ship captain" yields nothing for sellsword captains being ship captains while doing a search for "sellsail "yields 5 results, of which two are related to Cersei and the Reach and three are related to Stannis.

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In truth, Renly Baratheon did not frighten Tyrion half so much as his brother Stannis did. Renly was beloved of the commons, but he had never before led men in war. Stannis was otherwise: hard, cold, inexorable. If only they had some way of knowing what was happening on Dragonstone . . . but not one of the fisherfolk he had paid to spy out the island had ever returned, and even the informers the eunuch claimed to have placed in Stannis's household had been ominously silent. The striped hulls of Lysene war galleys had been seen offshore, though, and Varys had reports from Myr of sellsail captains taking service with Dragonstone. If Stannis attacks by sea while his brother Renly storms the gates, they'll soon be mounting Joffrey's head on a spike. Worse, mine will be beside him. A depressing thought. He ought to make plans to get Shae safely out of the city, should the worst seem likely

 

"On that we agree." Tyrion smiled. "And for Ser Cortnay's death, well, we know Stannis hired sellsails from the Free Cities. Perhaps he bought himself a skilled assassin as well."

 
If he does return. Jon feared for Sam and Maester Aemon. Cotter Pyke had written from Eastwatch to report that the Storm Crow had sighted the wreckage of a galley along the coast of Skagos. Whether the broken ship was Blackbird, one of Stannis Baratheon's sellsails, or some passing trader, the crew of the Storm Crow had not been able to discern. I meant to send Gilly and the babe to safety. Did I send them to their graves instead?

 

We never get an in detail breakdown, whether his knights are in full plate or plate and mail or if their horses are armored or not. We get some numbers however and one of them comes with a description. Stannis has 3000 men camped, he has archers and knights (obviously his garrison) eating, along with some sellsword captains. He also has 100 knights who can read. Renly later says calling Stannis' host five thousand would be generous and gives reports from his outriders, Stannis has less than 400 horse and we are given a description of these; freeriders in boiled leather. Obviously not all are freeriders since Stannis has his knights which would be properly armed and armored so freeriders, while not being the entirety of the cavalry force, clearly outnumber the knights.

 

How do you suggest they have gained some lands? Perhaps Bar Emmons who live on the further most point of Massey's Hook gained land from Masseys? Or maybe children of the forest worked their magic and made the Claw Isle bigger? No? Then perhaps Velaryons, who have lost one town sometime after the conquest and never resetted it gained more lands on their isle, again through children magic? Only mainland houses that are known to support Stannis are Masseys and Bar Emmons with Crackclaw men also seeming to be in his support (they are good dragon men like Stannis' supporters and appear to have been on the losing side through Brienne chapters with Dick Crabb). As said earlier, Stannis has more men than Aegon had after his defeat at Blackwater with seemingly same supporters at start except for Crackclaw men, whose lands also aren't very hospitable.

I have already said he could perhaps have 2000 men due to an increase in population over 300 years put his population increase wouldn't be as high as of a lord's from the mainland because his lands are just a few small, rocky islands.

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On 8/17/2017 at 7:49 AM, Nyrhex said:

Stannis had 3,000 men on Dragonstone. This should include the marines from both the ships of the Narrow Sea lords, and from the Royal Navy. Given that the ships are usually of 100 oars, 1 man per oar, and given the use of the ram, the closest historical examples give a crew of ~120 including deck crew and marines. So Dragonstone and its lords can raise ~2,500 men without the marines of the Royal Navy. Most of those would be infantry, due to being mostly islands. The 400 cavalry figure comes from Renly rounding up Stannis' mounted force at Storm's End, which he described as "freeriders in boiled leather", not the equal to knights in plate. Stannis say he has 100 knights on Dragonstone who would sooner read than fight, and I think that's a fair figure for the knights of Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea lords. The other 300 are likely part of the 2,000 men who join Stannis' ranks at Storm's End. Either sellswords or local Stormlanders who joined the older Baratheon near the ancestral seat. We know of the presence of Myrish crossbowmen, but it is unclear when they showed up.

Overall, Stannis managed to punch well above his weight class. This was due to his position as Master of Ships and the fact that he starts with half the Royal Navy with him, but also to his ability to treat and deal with mercenaries and sellsails and pirates, paying mostly with his iron word and promises. He doubled his force on land, and vastly expanded his naval power. There isn't a speck of gold left on Dragonstone with which to hire new sellswords, or pay the existing ones, within the year. The local manpower (before we start rounding up teens and old men that is) is tapped out, which requires hiring mercenaries.

If we compare Dragonstone to the Freys or Boltons, they have a large, strong land force. Stannis has an army that is larger (thanks to marines and sellswords) but overall lacks armored lances to match. He also has an expensive fleet. Had he not had to worry about a fleet, I'd say Stannis' Dragonstone could have matched the Freys and Boltons on land. Without Stannis and a position on the Small Council? Dragonstone's levy is weaker.

Well it may be worth it to distinguish oarsmen from actual fighters.  Stannis can raise relatively few fighters, but he can crew a bunch of ships, which makes sense.

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9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Doing a search on search of ice and fire with the words "sellsword ship", "sellsword captain" "sellsword ship captain" yields nothing for sellsword captains being ship captains while doing a search for "sellsail "yields 5 results, of which two are related to Cersei and the Reach and three are related to Stannis.

So? A sellsword is a mercenary, per Martin. Those ships captains are mercenaries. And they command thousands of men.

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We never get an in detail breakdown, whether his knights are in full plate or plate and mail or if their horses are armored or not. We get some numbers however and one of them comes with a description. Stannis has 3000 men camped, he has archers and knights (obviously his garrison) eating, along with some sellsword captains. He also has 100 knights who can read. Renly later says calling Stannis' host five thousand would be generous and gives reports from his outriders, Stannis has less than 400 horse and we are given a description of these; freeriders in boiled leather. Obviously not all are freeriders since Stannis has his knights which would be properly armed and armored so freeriders, while not being the entirety of the cavalry force, clearly outnumber the knights.

Never confirmed actually, it's not like Renly has a way to tell.

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How do you suggest they have gained some lands? Perhaps Bar Emmons who live on the further most point of Massey's Hook gained land from Masseys? Or maybe children of the forest worked their magic and made the Claw Isle bigger? No? Then perhaps Velaryons, who have lost one town sometime after the conquest and never resetted it gained more lands on their isle, again through children magic? Only mainland houses that are known to support Stannis are Masseys and Bar Emmons with Crackclaw men also seeming to be in his support (they are good dragon men like Stannis' supporters and appear to have been on the losing side through Brienne chapters with Dick Crabb). As said earlier, Stannis has more men than Aegon had after his defeat at Blackwater with seemingly same supporters at start except for Crackclaw men, whose lands also aren't very hospitable.

We know there are lords on the mainland sworn to Dragonstone, these would have likely gained some lands. 

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I have already said he could perhaps have 2000 men due to an increase in population over 300 years put his population increase wouldn't be as high as of a lord's from the mainland because his lands are just a few small, rocky islands.

it includes mainland holdings as well. And if anything the population increase in that region should have been much higher than just about anywhere else in Westeros. Dragonstone is now a major stop on a trade route (hence why Stannis was able to impress so many large merchant ships) when formerly it and the lands and islands around it had nothing. There's no real reason to doubt the ~3,000 number.

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One interesting question is whether Dragonstone has any special privileges beyond just being a normal lordship with vassals.

The Earldom of Chester is a similar dynastic title* in England, which had special privileges even beyond Palatinate level** due to its unique position and usefulness*** both before and after becoming a dynastic title. Despite not being that big, and not having any vassals beyond the local barons within in Chester (and sometimes neighboring Flint), it was always important.

I think Dragonstone could be similar, even though we don't get many political details for the internal politics in mid-level domains in general. It was the base for breeding and keeping most of the royal dragons, and, as the gateway to the Blackwater, a natural point from which to control trade and piracy and any possible foreign naval incursions, so it might make sense for it to have more power and autonomy than the other big but sub-Paramount lordships.

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* This means it's not inheritable, and is traditionally given to the heir to another title—in this case, England. Practically, it's always given only to heirs apparent, not just presumptive, and whenever a king is deposed, the title is abolished and recreated later for the next heir, so England has never ended up with a Stannis situation, but technically, it's not impossible.

** For example, it had its own Parliament and treaty obligations until Henry VIII, and some privileges extended all the way to 1830.

*** Chester was the only county in the Welsh Marches that could defend itself, and often its neighbors, so it was better to leave them to do so than to try to coordinate from London. And later, during the conquest of Wales, Edward was able to use the Chester rather than national exchequer to manage the conquest.

 

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10 hours ago, Nihlus said:

So? A sellsword is a mercenary, per Martin. Those ships captains are mercenaries. And they command thousands of men.

Never confirmed actually, it's not like Renly has a way to tell.

We know there are lords on the mainland sworn to Dragonstone, these would have likely gained some lands. 

it includes mainland holdings as well. And if anything the population increase in that region should have been much higher than just about anywhere else in Westeros. Dragonstone is now a major stop on a trade route (hence why Stannis was able to impress so many large merchant ships) when formerly it and the lands and islands around it had nothing. There's no real reason to doubt the ~3,000 number.

Sellsword =/= sellsail. If you can find any mention of a sellsword directly relating to a ship mercenary, I'll gladly agree with you. Other than that there are specific mentions of sellsails, which I have quoted by the way, and yet you are persistent on denying that sellsword =/= sellsail and insisting on sellsword = sellsail. Just to deny you the oppurtunity of bending and twisting the words and not have to bother myself again with explaining, I am asking for sellsword = sellsail, not mercenary = sellsail.

Never confirmed? No way to tell? Must I quote every single thing from the books? I am not sure if it's worth it since you are denying even what the quotes say but here it goes anyway.

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Give me knights to do the reading," Davos said. "That will carry more weight than anything I might say.

"Stannis seemed well satisfied with that. "I can give you such men, yes. I have a hundred knights who would sooner read than fight

 

You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell mefreeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won't survive the first charge of my vanguard."

I have bolded it and underlined it and it's also in italic so it will hopefully stand apart from the rest of the quote so you may actually notice it and not deny it. This is the way Renly has to tell.

 

Which lords have mainland holdings, please enlighten me. Bar Emmons are the only confirmed mainlanders and they live on sharp point the edge of Massey's Hook, which gets it's name from Masseys. Masseys own these lands as you'll hopefully agree. Masseys and Crackclaw men are also suggested to be Stannis' vassals but neither has much suitable land around them to be given. I seriously hope I won't have to search Brienne chapters to quote them here for Crackclaw terrain and you could give a quote or two that proves me wrong for a change.

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