A Time for Starks

Sansa and Aria are Playing Littlefinger (Not the Other Way Around)

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I sincerely hope this is the direction the Winterfell plot takes, with Sansa telling Littlefinger "We're all liars here, and every one of us better than you" just before she has him executed.

One thing to add about Ned's death that I always found particularly heartbreaking: In ep. 2 when Cercei orders Illyn Payne to kill Lady, Ned rejects it and says "The wolf is of the North, she deserves better than a butcher." Ned, obviously of the North and and a figurative direwolf instead of a literal one, is eventually killed by that same butcher. And with the ancestral sword of his house to boot. 

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On 8/17/2017 at 8:51 AM, Samwell_Tarly said:

We know Royce doesnt trust LF thats clear, we dont need a scene to show this. Its pretty obvious.........

Agreed. I also think Sansa knows what would happen if she told Royce about LF killing Lysa. Royce is Sansa's ace in the hole regarding Littlefinger. Littlefinger knows it, and that alone would be a reason to stick close to Sansa's side- to try to kill her if she attempts to tell anyone.

 

Oddly, I think LF knows Arya has been trained in the house of black and white too, because he too had little birds everywhere and he would recognize the assassin skills had to come from somewhere very noteworthy. That said, I think that he underestimates her right now, or is just testing the waters, hoping the girls will turn on each other.  But is that his end game? what ladder does this particular chaos cause, except to embed himself more fully with Sansa. Its hard for me to imagine that Sansa is LF's endgame.  

I also think Sansa is smarter than she's "letting on". I would prefer the show runners stop with the mean girl sibling rivalry thing between them, but the early books make such a big deal of it. Still it would be pretty cliche to aggressively pit Sansa and Arya against each other to either's harm. Its more likely that Arya does know LF planted it, and especially that he was watching. Nevertheless, the question of the scroll's legitimacy is an issue for Arya, because she's trying to figure out if Sansa is the same old Sansa who would let her Lady be murdered because she places trust in the wrong people. 

What I really hope is that the writers will be careful and judicious with how this scroll plot line plays out. Given the truncated style of this season, its possible that they gloss over this tension they are building between the girls when the Jon-Arya reunion comes, then the girls find themselves needing to band together against LF and all is "forgotten". 

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

 

LF is lusting after Sansa and Sansa knows it and he knows it and she is using it and he is aware of that too but he believes he can have her in the end.  They are both using each other for their own purposes and both of them are totally aware of it too.  Basically, Sansa is protecting LF for her own reasons.  Those reasons are about to end though.

I think this is true, but one thought keeps coming back to me: That LF loves power and the game more than he ever loved Cat, and that his "love" for Sansa is just sloppy second infatuation, so the motivation for being in the North HAS to be something mroe than this. It possible this whole arya-sansa scroll bit is a preface to a confrontation with LF where he threatens to pack up his toys (knights of the Vale) and go home, Sansa lays down some harsh truths to Royce, effectively leaving LF no choice but to run. And then he runs back to Kings Landing where he now has a BOATLOAD of intel to recon to Cersei.  That keeps him alive at least mid way through season 8. 

Edited by Katleesi
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42 minutes ago, Katleesi said:

I think this is true, but one thought keeps coming back to me: That LF loves power and the game more than he ever loved Cat, and that his "love" for Sansa is just sloppy second infatuation, so the motivation for being in the North HAS to be something mroe than this. It possible this whole arya-sansa scroll bit is a preface to a confrontation with LF where he threatens to pack up his toys (knights of the Vale) and go home, Sansa lays down some harsh truths to Royce, effectively leaving LF no choice but to run. And then he runs back to Kings Landing where he now has a BOATLOAD of intel to recon to Cersei.  That keeps him alive at least mid way through season 8. 

I still can't reconcile how stupid the story with sansa and arya is, and I suspect LF is gonna be dead next ep, but I could tolerate some version of that at least.

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3 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

I sincerely hope this is the direction the Winterfell plot takes, with Sansa telling Littlefinger "We're all liars here, and every one of us better than you" just before she has him executed.

That would be so amazing!

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20 minutes ago, Katleesi said:

Nevertheless, the question of the scroll's legitimacy is an issue for Arya, because she's trying to figure out if Sansa is the same old Sansa who would let her Lady be murdered because she places trust in the wrong people. 

Yes it is an issue. Arya isn't like her mother who makes the mistake to believe her sister to be trustworthy just because she's her sister.

At her arrival at WF she knows this:

  • Sansa wanted to be queen of 7K and was in love with Joffrey, so much that she'd rather lie about the Trident incident and throw Arya under the bus
  • Sansa's still engaged to marry Joffrey at Ned's beheading. DId Arya see Sansa's distress and fainting while Yoren prevented her from looking?
  • Then LF visits Harrenhal, and speaks of "after Stannis and Robb Stark are defeated", and that he met with her mother Catelyn regarding a proposal about her daughters. And before that he talks of how Margaery wants to be "queen".
  • Next, much later, she was present at the Red Wedding, outside the Twins, where her mother and Robb were killed.
  • While she's with the Hound she learns Sansa married Tyrion Lannister.
  • She knows Lysa Arryn is dead at the Vale
  • At Braavos she sees a play about the Purple Wedding, where Sansa and Tyrion are portrayed as scheming to poison Joffrey to take the throne themselves.
  • By the time she gets to WF: Jon is absent and Sansa is Lady of WF
  • When asked, Sansa says that yes, Arya has to call her Lady Stark now. (Has Sansa called Jon "Your Grace"?)
  • Sansa did not murder Joffrey after all, but says she wanted to. And Arya warms to her enough to hug her sincerely.
  • She learns LF is at WF via the dagger, but Sansa shows signs of distrusting him and explains quickly he chose to back House Stark.

Some times elapses. We can assume that in that time Arya also learns off-screen that Sansa was Lady Bolton, and married seemingly voluntarily into the family involved in the Red Wedding, was mistreated, conquered WF together with Jon after a battle in which Rickon was killed by Ramsay. But also that she set his dogs on him. 

All would seem right by Arya: even if her sister once wanted to be queen and loved Joffrey she seemed to have gone through a hard journey, and got her family priorities straight again.

Then she notices that even if Sansa goes through the motions of pointing out that Jon is king, it is not heartfelt and she was pleased that at least two lords said they'd back her as Queen in the North. Sansa is ambitious. There's nothing wrong with having ambition, but how far is Sansa willing to go for it is not an unreasonable question for Arya to have. And Sansa is not entirely honest about these feelings and desires to Arya (or herself really), which is a mistake, because it makes it look as if she's trying to hide her true motivations.

Then those 2 lords seem to collude with LF and LF makes it look as if Sansa wants to suppress a letter. That letter turns out to be one of utter disloyalty to the Starks: calling their own father a traitor and asking Robb to bend the knee, praising Joffrey for she is to be his queen. Arya would be stupid to ignore this letter by merely assuming that Sansa was only young and naive at the time by herself. That's what Catelyn did with Lysa. At the very least, with such ambiguous behavior and her marrying into the family of their enemies, and LF's past and present behavior, it's normal that Arya would confront her. And if Sansa were to lie or excuse it, that's gonna look even worse.

Does show-Sansa have the self-awareness and the courage to admit to Arya that she treated Arya horribly, that she was a stupid, silly, conceited girl who was so blindly in love with a monster that she rather beleaved their father to be a traitor and Cersei manipulated her ambition and desires to write such a letter? Or will she defend it as "I did what I needed to do to survive and didn't mean any of that"? The latter would be a lie. She was mistreated and a hostage and abused, but that actually happened after the letter, not during.

In that sense, if LF wants chaos, he's smart to once again use Sansa's inherent ambitions to cause doubt in Arya. But on the other hand it would be just nuts to anger someone trained to be an assassin against the woman he lusts after.

 

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I really hope you're right, but I've stopped getting my hopes up with this show. More often than not the simplest explanation really is the only explanation on this show. The writers believe it makes "good tv" by creating drama, not realizing that audiences enjoy well written/ well thought out drama which is unfortunately not something they are very capable of doing.

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If Sansa still as naive as in the beginning of the series, it would be a disappointment. Think Sansa and Arya will outplay LF, even if they need some help from Bran

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14 hours ago, Katleesi said:

Agreed. I also think Sansa knows what would happen if she told Royce about LF killing Lysa. Royce is Sansa's ace in the hole regarding Littlefinger. Littlefinger knows it, and that alone would be a reason to stick close to Sansa's side- to try to kill her if she attempts to tell anyone.

I think you forget what Sansa saw and did for LF, this isnt something she could use against LF without doing massive damage to herself or even for that matter the Northern Lords not believing her. She lied to save LF and now after all these years wants to tell, wont bode well for her.

14 hours ago, Katleesi said:

 

Oddly, I think LF knows Arya has been trained in the house of black and white too, because he too had little birds everywhere and he would recognize the assassin skills had to come from somewhere very noteworthy. That said, I think that he underestimates her right now, or is just testing the waters, hoping the girls will turn on each other.  But is that his end game? what ladder does this particular chaos cause, except to embed himself more fully with Sansa. Its hard for me to imagine that Sansa is LF's endgame.

The Chaos he aims to create, is one where Arya attacks Sansa, and also he stirring Jon leaving the North to the Northern Lords pushing them more in favour of Sansa. LF fingers end goal is the Iron Throne with Sansa by his side. It was made pretty clear in season 6 and it was a big reveal.  But none of this matters because LF is killed by Arya after Bran lets them know whats going on.

14 hours ago, Katleesi said:

I also think Sansa is smarter than she's "letting on". I would prefer the show runners stop with the mean girl sibling rivalry thing between them, but the early books make such a big deal of it. Still it would be pretty cliche to aggressively pit Sansa and Arya against each other to either's harm. Its more likely that Arya does know LF planted it, and especially that he was watching. Nevertheless, the question of the scroll's legitimacy is an issue for Arya, because she's trying to figure out if Sansa is the same old Sansa who would let her Lady be murdered because she places trust in the wrong people.

Aryas immaturity and childish behaviour against Sansa is something I dont like. Its like they are back in season 1. Arya is in abit of a crisis and LF is playing on that to push even more doubt that Sansa is going to betray her family well Jon.

14 hours ago, Katleesi said:

What I really hope is that the writers will be careful and judicious with how this scroll plot line plays out. Given the truncated style of this season, its possible that they gloss over this tension they are building between the girls when the Jon-Arya reunion comes, then the girls find themselves needing to band together against LF and all is "forgotten". 

The whole Arya/Sansa/LF will be resolved before the Arya/Jon reunion.

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Oh you sweet innocent fools. Have you learned nothing of the Game of Thrones?

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Posted (edited)

On 8/17/2017 at 8:04 PM, sweetsunray said:

I didn't buy in the "there's more to it" theories for seasons. I've always taken stuff at face value.

But here the face value is that

  • Sansa doesn't trust LF at all. She even snipes at him she can imagine what type of last word comment he can make without her caring for it.
  • Arya doesn't trust LF at all. Show botched her S6 arc by not showing what she learned. Instead they had her survive huge mistakes that should have gotten her killed, like Jaime should have drowned in the Mariana Trench. However, that siad, in the S6 finale and S7 cold open she has been established to be this perfect assasin, carrying faces (male or female), without being caught whatsoever. So, despite them not showing us learning it, they have shown us the results. So, yes, I am perfectly willing to accept she can read lies better than the Waif, she can snoop around her own home without anyone noticing and knowing it, and able to wear faces without needing to kill someone in the castle (assume she still has at least the servant's face she used at the Twins). She's not getting caught at snooping without wanting it.
  • Bran doesn't trust LF, and knows all. And when Bran said "it doesn't matter", he was only dismissing the catspaw attempt on his life. Which indeed does not matter. LF was not the man who hired the catspaw.

I'm deliberately ignoring some "POV info from the leaked preliminary scripts" here, because it seems to me there were alterations to it (such as Bran saying "it doesn't matter").

What do we have as scenes once Arya arrives:

  • crypt scene: Sansa hugs her, but Arya is less warm. She asks whether Sansa indeed killed Joffrey. She says she didn't, though she wished she had. They hug again, and Arya's hug is notable warmer now. => Arya knows that Sansa came to hate Joffrey to want him dead.
  • godswood scene: There's the exchange of the dagger (including Sansa warning Bran that LF wouldn't give such a thing without wanting something), the catspaw story, Bran's dismissal of the plot about who tried to kill him. Bran reveals he knows Arya was on her way to kill Cersei. Sansa asks who else is on her list, with Arya saying that most of them are dead already. The scene is cut.
  • Three Stark children: after the cut we see them all three together in the yard, seemingly close and a unity, despite the fact that Bran's different now. The sisters don't bother Bran anymore in the godwood. => Is there a scene missing, a continuation after the godwood scene was cut? Did Bran reveal what does matter?
  • Brienne-Arya fight: done in full display of everyone. Sansa stops to watch, LF by her side. Arya establishes that Brienne is supposed to be the guard of both girls, that she actually doesn't need Brienne's protection, that she has the dagger and ends up holding it at Brienne's throat with a sligth of hand and misdirection. => the scene is set up in a way to think that Sansa is disturbed and envious over Brienne being friendly with Arya at face value. Besides Arya teaching Brienne a fan-service lession just look nakedly at the scene for LF's benefit. What does LF see?
    • He can see that Bran gave Arya the dagger, Bran who used the "chaos is a ladder" line to throw it in his face. LF would logically be worried what Bran "has seen" and "has told" Arya.
    • He can see that she's deadly and might know what "no one" implies about Arya. => Arya wants LF to see her as a threat.
    • She uses the water dancing style of Braavos, using Needle which is more of a Braavos style fencing sword => She's letting LF know she's been to Braavos for a long while.
    • Arya wins the duel by misdirecting Brienne to block Arya's "hand", who then ends up holding the dagger to Brienne's throat. LF held that dagger to Ned's throat in the throne room. So, Arya already knows this imo, and she can only know it from Bran. So, yes Bran and Arya talked imo. I would say Sansa was included in the revelation and that it happened in the godswood. But it might have been just a Bran-Arya convo, without Sansa. Not sure if LF was that perceptive of it, but he migth have.
    • Arya establishes that Brienne swore to protect both of Catelyn's daughters. Who else claims that all he's doing is protecting Cat's children? O, that's right: LF (he repeated the whole nonsense of wanting to protect Cat's children to Bran). Arya holding a dagger to Brienne's throat after establishing this is Arya using Brienne as a stand-in to threaten LF's life without words.  
    • Sansa stops to watch from the start from the gallery. LF follows Sansa, only looking at her. He only looks into the training yard, when Sansa keeps staring and stops speaking mid-sentence. Sansa is the one who makes LF pay attention. The music becomes exciting with the choreography and Sansa is watching it entranced (not negatively). But when Brienne looks up at her, smiling. Yes, Sansa's face falters, but not before having looked sideways at LF. She actually rolls her eyes at him in disgust and walks away, while LF is staring, smiling smugly and thinking.
    • Brienne's instructions to Pod: don't lunge, don't follow where the enemy leads you, and Arya finishes it with "don't fight someone like her in the first place". => Arya knows that following LF around would only be following where the enemy leads her. So, if she's following LF to where he leads her, she already knows she's following him to a trap he set up for her. Instead, Arya manages to make Brienne follow her, but switches the dagger to the other hand.
    • So, IMO the whole Brienne-Arya fighting scene can be analysed to contain plenty of clues of Arya wanting LF to regard Arya as a threat, and thus prompt him into trying a ploy to get rid of her. And I find more evidence of Sansa's dislike and distrust of LF than her being put out with Brienne. Still, I don't think they're doing this fully coordinated behind the screens. Arya took initiative here, and Sansa followed suit.
  • Then Glover and Royce suggest they ought to make her Queen in the North and not support Jon anymore. Arya walks in accidentally and watches Sansa's response to it. Her words repeat that Jon is king and he's doing what he believes is in the interest of his people, but no more than that. Given that she has publically has shown to disagree with a lot of Jon's decisions (that Arya didn't witness), Sansa is indeed leaving room for Glover and Royce to believe that she wishes they had elected her queen. She's not actually displaying Stark unity. This is what Arya notices and picks up on. Sansa confides in her how Jon isn't making it easy on her, and Arya confronts her calmly. It's not something that comes across as envy or anger, but holding up a mirror to Sansa, and to not lie to her. The camera lingers on Sansa, after Arya has left, to ponder things (I guess to fight every battle everywhere always in her mind). But they do show Sansa pondering and trying to figure out what's going on.
  • Then Arya watches LF pay a servant girl as obvious as can be.
  • She watches him again in an obvious spying manner talk with Glover and Royce (the two men who complained about Jon's absence and voiced to support Sansa as queen. The spying take almost cartoonish forms. Look at me, standing behind this post, with my head peeking out. We don't actually overhear the conversation and Glover and Royce glower more at LF than anything else. So, yes, obviously LF wanted Arya to see him talk as if conspiring with these 2.
  • Next she spies on maester Wolkan giving the letter that Sansa once wrote to Robb, with LF explicitly asking whether it's the only copy and saying, "Lady Sansa asks you for your service". Obviously LF here is setting up the trap to try and make Arya believe that Sansa wants to get rid of a letter that may harm her reputation, and that LF is working in Sansa's interest and how much he is in the confidence of Sansa. Arya steals into his room without waiting long after he leaves it, picking the lock, searches it and find the letter, reads it, leaves, closes the lock and LF the creep smiles satisfied.

Arya looks like a cartoonish amateur in epi 5, following the enemy where he leads her. But epi 4 Brienne-Arya duel scene gave us clues that Arya is the one leading LF, provoking him into taking actions. She wanted him to take notice of her, and thus watch her. Sansa too leads LF to watching Arya.

I don't think Sansa and Arya communicate freely in some secret spot to discuss each other's moves. But she is trying to figure out what Arya is giving as clue directions on how to play it.

I think this time the idea that they are conning LF might be valid. D&D show awareness of memes and what viewers think (see 'still rowing'). And the whole speculation about Arya's arc in S6 being more than what it was at face value even hit mainstream media, including the fact it turned out to be exactly what we saw. I do consider the whole prolonged LF-life WF plot for S7 absurd and a bad idea. But when they put their mind to it, they can execute filler arc minutely and in detail.

 

On 8/18/2017 at 1:46 AM, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

I would really love it if the theory you propose came true. I found the whole thing a mess, because it doesn't make sense for Stark kids to turn on each other, not when they spent 6 seasons waiting to come home and family. Then again I don't expect much, given how many plot lines the show has butchered.

 

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

 

 

Of course, they do have a knack at strange erratic confusing character development, and especially strange ways of exaggeration for faux cliffhanger drama. One moment Jaime is dropping in the Mariana Trench, and the next he's somehow hundred yards further along, floating, in his armor. One moment Arya is completely careless and just strolling in Braavos to admire the coloss, only to be taken by surprise with multiple stabs in the gut, drops into a canal that's practically a sewer, but all she needs is a bit of milk of the poppy and some stitches by an actress, to then do parcours being chased by a mean terminator waif, and masterfully kill her off-screen in the dark, claiming to go home and be a Stark, to then pop up at the Twins and bake Frey Pies, and have all the men die from poison, not missing a beat. Sandra doesn't trust LF, knows what he wants, refuses Brienne's service of protection, gets in a panic when she learns LF means to marry her to Ramsay Bolton, but agrees because "marrying your enemy is a good plan to avenge your dead family from within, as good as catching a wight for Cersei" (that'll show them).

One moment they can do magical stuff to utter perfection to impress us, the next they bumble along for dramatic effect and are stupid, but don't worry too much and just hand wave at it for it'll all be alright, because off-screen they become super-intelligent again, but yeah, they were really stupid in the mid-section, because creepy LF is by definition a "smart man". It's just that we can't manage to make him smart without dumbing everybody else down.

So, there's a very good chance that Bran didn't say anything, that Arya just bested Brienne and was showing off and those choreographed parallels are in there because it's cool, and Arya's a cartoonish spy who only managed to kill all male Freys because the Freys are stupider, but LF is a perceptive man. There's a very good chance that while Sansa doesn't trust LF at all she still runs to him for advice the moment she needs him, to then not take that advice and plot how to get rid of her sister by herself for her own survival, but just in the nick of time, she'll finally for once will realize she'd rather be rid of LF, and finally will use all the ammunition that she has. Sansa also says the right things in Jon's absence, but indeed is the least Stark and in her heart of hearts is pissed that she wasn't chosen to be QitN. Especially because she'd be better at it since she knows how to make armor, and marrying your enemy makes you an expert in the enemy and how to destroy them, after you first (almost) throw a Stark under the bus, because there's no saving them anyway. And while Arya is not good enough a spy to fool LF, she's an expert in detecting lies, especially because she knows her sister has a weakness for nice things and titles.

:dunno:

 

22 hours ago, kevinbgwrites said:

No matter how this plays out Im gonna be disappointed I suspect. Unless the reason for an elaborate ploy is very good, its going to come across as totally needless and nonsensical(especially at this point if you've seen the leaked episode). 

Because they've done a pretty bad job of conveying Arya as competent, aside from dealing with the freys, it will be unsatisfying if she set a contrived plot and its LF's undoing.

It will also be unsatisfying in a sense if LF played them successfully(which based off the trailer line of sansas, and that bran/arya clearly can't die yet is immensely unlikely) because it would make Aryas embarrassingly poor attitude and spy skills unexplainable. I'd view it as an outright plot hole in the sense that she has faces.

lastly if its not a ploy, but they unite against LF after Bran talks to them or they bond etc. etc. its the worst of both worlds. LF is crushed nearly at random, Aryas a failure and weirdo and the whole WF arc will be pointless.

Its near certain LF is done for, which is just a shame, especially since he wasn't even doing anything villainous this season especially compared to what he's done in the past- He's supporting Sansa and his plot is only a response to Arya and the sister drama in the first place. This would have made more sense if he A. Had more power or B. Had some immensely malicious plot in the works this season. Him dying now in this fashion is a real disservice to his character. I wanted him to die with some insane plot afoot, or blindsided by something completely unforeseeable- Which could have been the supernatural elements of the Starks if done right, but the execution has been sloppy at best. 

 

12 hours ago, Heathen Librarian said:

I really hope you're right, but I've stopped getting my hopes up with this show. More often than not the simplest explanation really is the only explanation on this show. The writers believe it makes "good tv" by creating drama, not realizing that audiences enjoy well written/ well thought out drama which is unfortunately not something they are very capable of doing.

SOOOO much good stuff here, however:

The problem is most watchers/readers that attend this forum put more thought into the continuity of this story than the writers do. The writers just create the scenes as needed without regard to prior plot lines, motivations or existing conditions to get the end result they need. Case in point: the Marianna Trench scene and ultimate escape to safety after a leisurely waterside conversation near a battlefield literally crawling with Dothraki. 

We can all put as much thought as we want into why characters behave a certain way or do certain things but in the end it doesn't matter one whit. They will do whatever the plot requires for the end result no matter how convoluted...

Edited by Green Knight

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Posted (edited)

Faceless men are not politicians. They are extremely skilled assasins and they can act as if they are someone else for a moment. That's it. Arya can't manipulate and lead people around him with that skill. She can kill them, she can deceive if she is someone else but that's all.

 

People underestimating Littlefinger too much. He was dealing with the people like Varys, Tywin, Tyrion and Pycelle with ease. Cercei is nothing in comparison with him. If not for him, Tyrell-Lannister alliance would never happen thus Stannis and Robb wouldn't lose to Lannisters, Ned Stark would never lost his head. Aryn's would help Robb in the war of the five kings, or they wouldn't help Jon in the battle of bastards. He changed the course of War of the Five Kings, Kings Landing and Winterfell's fate many times before. Littlefinger already playing the big game from the start and Sansa is just a newbie in this game. As for Arya, as I said, Faceless men are not politicians they are assasins.

 

At best, Arya could kill Littlefinger, that's all she can do. She can't outwit him.

Edited by Erkan12

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46 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Faceless men are not politicians. They are extremely skilled assasins and they can act as if they are someone else for a moment. That's it. Arya can't manipulate and lead people around him with that skill. She can kill them, she can deceive if she is someone else but that's all.

 

People underestimating Littlefinger too much. He was dealing with the people like Varys, Tywin, Tyrion and Pycelle with ease. Cercei is nothing in comparison with him. If not for him, Tyrell-Lannister alliance would never happen thus Stannis and Robb wouldn't lose to Lannisters, Ned Stark would never lost his head. Aryn's would help Robb in the war of the five kings, or they wouldn't help Jon in the battle of bastards. He changed the course of War of the Five Kings, Kings Landing and Winterfell's fate many times before. Littlefinger already playing the big game from the start and Sansa is just a newbie in this game. As for Arya, as I said, Faceless men are not politicians they are assasins.

 

At best, Arya could kill Littlefinger, that's all she can do. She can't outwit him.

Don't forget that he came from an insignificant house that owned an insignificant island in the Fingers, and through sheer cunning and ambition, has positioned himself as the acting ruler of the Vale of Arryn, and has a fairly promising chance of getting married to Sansa Stark.

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Posted (edited)

What a great discussion! I especially appreciate the care with which the originator, and several of the posters, have constructed and supported their arguments.

I posted a similar theory/hope in the discussion thread on Sansa/Arya's interaction, with nowhere near the skill or thought shown by you guys. Sadly, that other thread devolved into a cat fight between lovers and haters of the two sisters, respectively.

I agree that Sansa will demonstrate that she has learned from not just LF, but from Cersei, Ramsay, and maybe even Tyrion, how to play the game, beyond just the diplomacy she is already practicing. I also agree that Arya, hothead though she may be, is too skilled to have been so clumsy in dealing with LF. I LOVE your whole "ironic deaths" theory. Some of your examples do, indeed show irony, like Tywyn; I would say others are more parallelism. But overall, there is a poetic justice vibe.

On 2017-08-17 at 9:33 AM, A Time for Starks said:

...Arya trained with a group of assassins for a reason... I don't think that she would get caught so easily, or at least I would hope not.

... I can picture that when Littlefinger is finally revealed for his scheming, Sansa additionally reveals to Yohn Royce that it was Littlefinger that pushed Lysa out the moon door.

There is evidence both ways with Arya. Her fanatical drive for revenge has made her pretty erratic, and therefore vulnerable to manipulation. And it isn't uncommon to revert back to childhood roles when returning to a childhood home and interacting with family; just seeing Sansa in their parents' bedroom triggered some pretty strong resentments. And Arya's training has been almost the diametric opposite of Sansa's - it didn't include much interpersonal communications skill. But she has been taught not to take things at face (pun semi-intended) value, so I don't think she'd fall that hard for LF's bullshit.

On 2017-08-17 at 11:27 AM, Cas Stark said:

Well, that's another plot hole in the show.  LF threatened to have him killed and yet here he is scheming with him as if he's his friend.  Royce in a realistic world, if not having already arranged an accident for him a long time ago, would certainly not be seen as trusting him and comspiring wtih him...

I didn't see any evidence of Royce plotting with LF. He is speaking with LF quite openly in the courtyard. LF may be putting on a show for Arya, but there is nothing in Royce's body language that suggests anything nefarious on his part. Frankly, I'm not sure he's clever enough, anyway.

On 2017-08-17 at 11:54 AM, Cas Stark said:

I beg to differ, Sansa tells Brienne that she need LF in order to keep the lords of the Vale, if Royce in the show didn't trust LF that would not be true.  At one point, in the past, he didn't trust LF, then he did, then he didn't, and now apparently he does again.  Otherwise, Sansa would just tell Lord Royce that it was a lie that she was kidnapped by the Boltons....and LF would have been dead many episodes ago.

 

On 2017-08-17 at 0:02 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

Royce is not stupid he knows whats going on and what LF  is capable of.Royce has to do as Robyn says and LF is calling the shots through Robyn. Royce has to be careful and do the right thing not because he trusts LF but he doesnt want to end up dead which he could have done in season 6.

Exactly. I don't remember any indication that Royce trusted LF. I do remember him being taught that his life would be in grave danger if LF gave Robyn the word. Royce mistrusts, fears and hates LF, all with good reason.

On 2017-08-17 at 7:22 PM, ShadowKitteh said:

In order to retain the Army of the Vale, the truth about Lysa's death needs to come out, so everyone knows what a snake Littlefinger is. I'd love if the truth about Jon Arryn's murder were to come out as well... but I'll settle for everyone learning Petyr pushed his own wife out of the Moon Door.

And yes, OP, I totally agree they'll end up playing him, because they're not the idiots he thinks they are.

Littlefinger has to die, that's the point. And why wouldn't it work?

Sansa no longer needs Littlefinger's "help."

His goal has never been for Sansa's wellbeing. I don't even think Sansa ever believed that. 

 

The story of Lysa's death implicates Sansa as well. I don't know Westerosi law, but in our world, she's an accessory after the fact. It could make her look like she conspired with LF to take over the Vale, or at least to rule in proxy by manipulating Robyn. And even in the Lords of the Vale accepted her excuse that she was afraid for her own safety, Robyn would not likely be so understanding about the loss of his beloved mother and literal meal ticket. At the very least, the story would undermine any trust Sansa has establish with the Vale.

On 2017-08-17 at 10:04 PM, sweetsunray said:

 

  • Sansa doesn't trust LF at all. She even snipes at him she can imagine what type of last word comment he can make without her caring for it.
  • Arya doesn't trust LF at all... she can snoop around her own home without anyone noticing and knowing it, and able to wear faces without needing to kill someone in the castle (assume she still has at least the servant's face she used at the Twins). She's not getting caught at snooping without wanting it.
  • Bran doesn't trust LF, and knows all...
  • ...
  • Brienne-Arya fight: done in full display of everyone... the scene is set up in a way to think that Sansa is disturbed and envious over Brienne being friendly with Arya... just look nakedly at the scene for LF's benefit. What does LF see?
    • He can see that Bran gave Arya the dagger, Bran who used the "chaos is a ladder" line to throw it in his face. LF would logically be worried what Bran "has seen" and "has told" Arya.
    • He can see that she's deadly and might know what "no one" implies about Arya. => Arya wants LF to see her as a threat.
    • She uses the water dancing style of Braavos, using Needle which is more of a Braavos style fencing sword => She's letting LF know she's been to Braavos for a long while.
    • Arya wins the duel by misdirecting Brienne to block Arya's "hand", who then ends up holding the dagger to Brienne's throat. LF held that dagger to Ned's throat in the throne room. So, Arya already knows this imo, and she can only know it from Bran. So, yes Bran and Arya talked imo. I would say Sansa was included in the revelation and that it happened in the godswood. But it might have been just a Bran-Arya convo, without Sansa. Not sure if LF was that perceptive of it, but he migth have.
    • Arya establishes that Brienne swore to protect both of Catelyn's daughters. Who else claims that all he's doing is protecting Cat's children? O, that's right: LF (he repeated the whole nonsense of wanting to protect Cat's children to Bran). Arya holding a dagger to Brienne's throat after establishing this is Arya using Brienne as a stand-in to threaten LF's life without words.  
    • Sansa stops to watch from the start from the gallery. LF follows Sansa, only looking at her. He only looks into the training yard, when Sansa keeps staring and stops speaking mid-sentence. Sansa is the one who makes LF pay attention. The music becomes exciting with the choreography and Sansa is watching it entranced (not negatively). But when Brienne looks up at her, smiling. Yes, Sansa's face falters, but not before having looked sideways at LF. She actually rolls her eyes at him in disgust and walks away, while LF is staring, smiling smugly and thinking.
    • Brienne's instructions to Pod: don't lunge, don't follow where the enemy leads you, and Arya finishes it with "don't fight someone like her in the first place". => Arya knows that following LF around would only be following where the enemy leads her. So, if she's following LF to where he leads her, she already knows she's following him to a trap he set up for her. Instead, Arya manages to make Brienne follow her, but switches the dagger to the other hand.
    • So, IMO the whole Brienne-Arya fighting scene can be analysed to contain plenty of clues of Arya wanting LF to regard Arya as a threat, and thus prompt him into trying a ploy to get rid of her. And I find more evidence of Sansa's dislike and distrust of LF than her being put out with Brienne. Still, I don't think they're doing this fully coordinated behind the screens. Arya took initiative here, and Sansa followed suit...

Arya looks like a cartoonish amateur in epi 5, following the enemy where he leads her. But epi 4 Brienne-Arya duel scene gave us clues that Arya is the one leading LF, provoking him into taking actions. She wanted him to take notice of her, and thus watch her. Sansa too leads LF to watching Arya.

I don't think Sansa and Arya communicate freely in some secret spot to discuss each other's moves. But she is trying to figure out what Arya is giving as clue directions on how to play it.

I think this time the idea that they are conning LF might be valid. D&D show awareness of memes and what viewers think (see 'still rowing'). And the whole speculation about Arya's arc in S6 being more than what it was at face value even hit mainstream media, including the fact it turned out to be exactly what we saw. I do consider the whole prolonged LF-life WF plot for S7 absurd and a bad idea. But when they put their mind to it, they can execute filler arc minutely and in detail.

Very interesting and thoughtful analysis. I don't agree with all of it, but I think a lot has merit. The writers have definitely hit us over the head with Sansa not trusting LF. Arya has good reason to think he is a snake, given the conversation she witnesses between him and Tywyn. Bran, of course knows everything, and hinted at his knowledge to LF with the "Chaos Is a ladder" comment, but I think he is much too wrapped up with the NK and the WW right now to be a co-conspirator with his sisters. He will likely play a role, but not until it is absolutely necessary.

Your theory about the training scene with Brienne is very intriguing, and it finally gives the scene a purpose. I particularly like the comment on the "don't go where your enemy leads you" line, although Arya says "And don't fight someone like her in the first place." One could take that to mean that she shouldn't be taking LF on at his own game, but maybe it means that her fight isn't with the knights and the soldiers, but with the schemers and plotters? (OK, I'm over-thinking, but it's fun!)  

I'm willing to buy all of it except your take on Sansa's and LF's reactions. I think Sansa looks alarmed throughout the scene. She might have initially been worried about Arya's safety, but I think her concern changes to worry about what Arya has become. The training hammers home that Arya's list was no joke.

You are dead on about how cartoonish the episode makes Arya look, which is why I think she, at least is playing LF. I'm not sure Sansa is in on it yet, but she will be. Mind you, it is possible that her reactions to the training are also for LF's benefit. Not sure...

On 2017-08-18 at 4:30 AM, DirePenguin said:

When Arya keyed LF's room when she left, don't you think she overdid it to make sure she got noticed? That would be stupidly clumsy otherwise, especially coming from a faceless assassin...

 

Robyn really liked Sansa tho. I'm sure she'll have no problem controlling him with or without LF.

IDK what you mean about "keying" his room, but as someone suggested above, she could have used a face and posed as a servant. I think she wanted him to see her, just as he wanted her to see him.

Not sure how much Robyn likes Sansa. Remember that whole "you kicked in my sand castle!" scene? And he definitely won't appreciate the role she played in Lysa's death. But he does love "Uncle Peter."

20 hours ago, Katleesi said:

Agreed. I also think Sansa knows what would happen if she told Royce about LF killing Lysa. Royce is Sansa's ace in the hole regarding Littlefinger. Littlefinger knows it, and that alone would be a reason to stick close to Sansa's side- to try to kill her if she attempts to tell anyone.

 

Oddly, I think LF knows Arya has been trained in the house of black and white too, because he too had little birds everywhere and he would recognize the assassin skills had to come from somewhere very noteworthy. That said, I think that he underestimates her right now, or is just testing the waters, hoping the girls will turn on each other.  But is that his end game? what ladder does this particular chaos cause, except to embed himself more fully with Sansa. Its hard for me to imagine that Sansa is LF's endgame.  

I also think Sansa is smarter than she's "letting on". I would prefer the show runners stop with the mean girl sibling rivalry thing between them, but the early books make such a big deal of it. Still it would be pretty cliche to aggressively pit Sansa and Arya against each other to either's harm. Its more likely that Arya does know LF planted it, and especially that he was watching. Nevertheless, the question of the scroll's legitimacy is an issue for Arya, because she's trying to figure out if Sansa is the same old Sansa who would let her Lady be murdered because she places trust in the wrong people. 

What I really hope is that the writers will be careful and judicious with how this scroll plot line plays out. Given the truncated style of this season, its possible that they gloss over this tension they are building between the girls when the Jon-Arya reunion comes, then the girls find themselves needing to band together against LF and all is "forgotten". 

LF has no claim on anything beyond his relationship with Robyn. If Robyn ever turns on him, he is a dead man. He married into power once before, and he wants todo it a second time, with Sansa. She isn't his end game - beyond lust and that icky "you remind me of your mother" stuff, Sansa is merely his best chance at what he really wants - the Iron Throne. For such a clever man, he has overplayed his hand and made a lot of enemies. But I suspect he still has a few tricks up his sleeve.

i agree that I wish they would drop the bitchy sisters routine, but it isn't unreasonable as I mentioned above, for the girls to revert back to old patterns when they go home. There's a great nonfiction book called Dance of Anger that explains the tendency.

20 hours ago, Katleesi said:

I think this is true, but one thought keeps coming back to me: That LF loves power and the game more than he ever loved Cat, and that his "love" for Sansa is just sloppy second infatuation, so the motivation for being in the North HAS to be something mroe than this. It possible this whole arya-sansa scroll bit is a preface to a confrontation with LF where he threatens to pack up his toys (knights of the Vale) and go home, Sansa lays down some harsh truths to Royce, effectively leaving LF no choice but to run. And then he runs back to Kings Landing where he now has a BOATLOAD of intel to recon to Cersei.  That keeps him alive at least mid way through season 8. 

See above for my take on his interest in Sansa, but I hadn't considered the implications of him going back to KL. Mind you, would he dare show his face back there, even with all this juicy intel? Surely he'd know that they'd kill him after they got what they wanted from him, And not quickly, either.

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes it is an issue. Arya isn't like her mother who makes the mistake to believe her sister to be trustworthy just because she's her sister.

At her arrival at WF she knows this:

  • Sansa wanted to be queen of 7K and was in love with Joffrey, so much that she'd rather lie about the Trident incident and throw Arya under the bus
  • Sansa's still engaged to marry Joffrey at Ned's beheading. DId Arya see Sansa's distress and fainting while Yoren prevented her from looking?
  • Then LF visits Harrenhal, and speaks of "after Stannis and Robb Stark are defeated", and that he met with her mother Catelyn regarding a proposal about her daughters. And before that he talks of how Margaery wants to be "queen".
  • Next, much later, she was present at the Red Wedding, outside the Twins, where her mother and Robb were killed.
  • While she's with the Hound she learns Sansa married Tyrion Lannister.
  • She knows Lysa Arryn is dead at the Vale
  • At Braavos she sees a play about the Purple Wedding, where Sansa and Tyrion are portrayed as scheming to poison Joffrey to take the throne themselves.
  • By the time she gets to WF: Jon is absent and Sansa is Lady of WF
  • When asked, Sansa says that yes, Arya has to call her Lady Stark now. (Has Sansa called Jon "Your Grace"?)
  • Sansa did not murder Joffrey after all, but says she wanted to. And Arya warms to her enough to hug her sincerely.
  • She learns LF is at WF via the dagger, but Sansa shows signs of distrusting him and explains quickly he chose to back House Stark.

Some times elapses. We can assume that in that time Arya also learns off-screen that Sansa was Lady Bolton, and married seemingly voluntarily into the family involved in the Red Wedding, was mistreated, conquered WF together with Jon after a battle in which Rickon was killed by Ramsay. But also that she set his dogs on him. 

All would seem right by Arya: even if her sister once wanted to be queen and loved Joffrey she seemed to have gone through a hard journey, and got her family priorities straight again.

Then she notices that even if Sansa goes through the motions of pointing out that Jon is king, it is not heartfelt and she was pleased that at least two lords said they'd back her as Queen in the North. Sansa is ambitious. There's nothing wrong with having ambition, but how far is Sansa willing to go for it is not an unreasonable question for Arya to have. And Sansa is not entirely honest about these feelings and desires to Arya (or herself really), which is a mistake, because it makes it look as if she's trying to hide her true motivations.

Then those 2 lords seem to collude with LF and LF makes it look as if Sansa wants to suppress a letter. That letter turns out to be one of utter disloyalty to the Starks: calling their own father a traitor and asking Robb to bend the knee, praising Joffrey for she is to be his queen. Arya would be stupid to ignore this letter by merely assuming that Sansa was only young and naive at the time by herself. That's what Catelyn did with Lysa. At the very least, with such ambiguous behavior and her marrying into the family of their enemies, and LF's past and present behavior, it's normal that Arya would confront her. And if Sansa were to lie or excuse it, that's gonna look even worse.

Does show-Sansa have the self-awareness and the courage to admit to Arya that she treated Arya horribly, that she was a stupid, silly, conceited girl who was so blindly in love with a monster that she rather beleaved their father to be a traitor and Cersei manipulated her ambition and desires to write such a letter? Or will she defend it as "I did what I needed to do to survive and didn't mean any of that"? The latter would be a lie. She was mistreated and a hostage and abused, but that actually happened after the letter, not during.

In that sense, if LF wants chaos, he's smart to once again use Sansa's inherent ambitions to cause doubt in Arya. But on the other hand it would be just nuts to anger someone trained to be an assassin against the woman he lusts after.

 

All great points. My one quibble is your last sentence. He wants to anger Arya enough to fan the friction he has already seen between the two sisters, He needs to keep Sansa isolated, so that she continues to confide in, or turn to him. He doesn't have many allies - or even people in power who are neutral to him - left.

6 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I think you forget what Sansa saw and did for LF, this isnt something she could use against LF without doing massive damage to herself or even for that matter the Northern Lords not believing her. She lied to save LF and now after all these years wants to tell, wont bode well for her.

The Chaos he aims to create, is one where Arya attacks Sansa, and also he stirring Jon leaving the North to the Northern Lords pushing them more in favour of Sansa. LF fingers end goal is the Iron Throne with Sansa by his side. It was made pretty clear in season 6 and it was a big reveal.  But none of this matters because LF is killed by Arya after Bran lets them know whats going on.

Aryas immaturity and childish behaviour against Sansa is something I dont like. Its like they are back in season 1. Arya is in abit of a crisis and LF is playing on that to push even more doubt that Sansa is going to betray her family well Jon.

The whole Arya/Sansa/LF will be resolved before the Arya/Jon reunion.

Completely agree.

Edited by I prefer summer

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Keying - I meant when she locked the door after she found the message. The *click* sound was very loud and, to me, deliberate.

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On 8/17/2017 at 10:04 PM, sweetsunray said:

I didn't buy in the "there's more to it" theories for seasons. I've always taken stuff at face value.

But here the face value is that

  • Sansa doesn't trust LF at all. She even snipes at him she can imagine what type of last word comment he can make without her caring for it.
  • Arya doesn't trust LF at all. Show botched her S6 arc by not showing what she learned. Instead they had her survive huge mistakes that should have gotten her killed, like Jaime should have drowned in the Mariana Trench. However, that siad, in the S6 finale and S7 cold open she has been established to be this perfect assasin, carrying faces (male or female), without being caught whatsoever. So, despite them not showing us learning it, they have shown us the results. So, yes, I am perfectly willing to accept she can read lies better than the Waif, she can snoop around her own home without anyone noticing and knowing it, and able to wear faces without needing to kill someone in the castle (assume she still has at least the servant's face she used at the Twins). She's not getting caught at snooping without wanting it.
  • Bran doesn't trust LF, and knows all. And when Bran said "it doesn't matter", he was only dismissing the catspaw attempt on his life. Which indeed does not matter. LF was not the man who hired the catspaw.

I'm deliberately ignoring some "POV info from the leaked preliminary scripts" here, because it seems to me there were alterations to it (such as Bran saying "it doesn't matter").

What do we have as scenes once Arya arrives:

  • crypt scene: Sansa hugs her, but Arya is less warm. She asks whether Sansa indeed killed Joffrey. She says she didn't, though she wished she had. They hug again, and Arya's hug is notable warmer now. => Arya knows that Sansa came to hate Joffrey to want him dead.
  • godswood scene: There's the exchange of the dagger (including Sansa warning Bran that LF wouldn't give such a thing without wanting something), the catspaw story, Bran's dismissal of the plot about who tried to kill him. Bran reveals he knows Arya was on her way to kill Cersei. Sansa asks who else is on her list, with Arya saying that most of them are dead already. The scene is cut.
  • Three Stark children: after the cut we see them all three together in the yard, seemingly close and a unity, despite the fact that Bran's different now. The sisters don't bother Bran anymore in the godwood. => Is there a scene missing, a continuation after the godwood scene was cut? Did Bran reveal what does matter?
  • Brienne-Arya fight: done in full display of everyone. Sansa stops to watch, LF by her side. Arya establishes that Brienne is supposed to be the guard of both girls, that she actually doesn't need Brienne's protection, that she has the dagger and ends up holding it at Brienne's throat with a sligth of hand and misdirection. => the scene is set up in a way to think that Sansa is disturbed and envious over Brienne being friendly with Arya at face value. Besides Arya teaching Brienne a fan-service lession just look nakedly at the scene for LF's benefit. What does LF see?
    • He can see that Bran gave Arya the dagger, Bran who used the "chaos is a ladder" line to throw it in his face. LF would logically be worried what Bran "has seen" and "has told" Arya.
    • He can see that she's deadly and might know what "no one" implies about Arya. => Arya wants LF to see her as a threat.
    • She uses the water dancing style of Braavos, using Needle which is more of a Braavos style fencing sword => She's letting LF know she's been to Braavos for a long while.
    • Arya wins the duel by misdirecting Brienne to block Arya's "hand", who then ends up holding the dagger to Brienne's throat. LF held that dagger to Ned's throat in the throne room. So, Arya already knows this imo, and she can only know it from Bran. So, yes Bran and Arya talked imo. I would say Sansa was included in the revelation and that it happened in the godswood. But it might have been just a Bran-Arya convo, without Sansa. Not sure if LF was that perceptive of it, but he migth have.
    • Arya establishes that Brienne swore to protect both of Catelyn's daughters. Who else claims that all he's doing is protecting Cat's children? O, that's right: LF (he repeated the whole nonsense of wanting to protect Cat's children to Bran). Arya holding a dagger to Brienne's throat after establishing this is Arya using Brienne as a stand-in to threaten LF's life without words.  
    • Sansa stops to watch from the start from the gallery. LF follows Sansa, only looking at her. He only looks into the training yard, when Sansa keeps staring and stops speaking mid-sentence. Sansa is the one who makes LF pay attention. The music becomes exciting with the choreography and Sansa is watching it entranced (not negatively). But when Brienne looks up at her, smiling. Yes, Sansa's face falters, but not before having looked sideways at LF. She actually rolls her eyes at him in disgust and walks away, while LF is staring, smiling smugly and thinking.
    • Brienne's instructions to Pod: don't lunge, don't follow where the enemy leads you, and Arya finishes it with "don't fight someone like her in the first place". => Arya knows that following LF around would only be following where the enemy leads her. So, if she's following LF to where he leads her, she already knows she's following him to a trap he set up for her. Instead, Arya manages to make Brienne follow her, but switches the dagger to the other hand.
    • So, IMO the whole Brienne-Arya fighting scene can be analysed to contain plenty of clues of Arya wanting LF to regard Arya as a threat, and thus prompt him into trying a ploy to get rid of her. And I find more evidence of Sansa's dislike and distrust of LF than her being put out with Brienne. Still, I don't think they're doing this fully coordinated behind the screens. Arya took initiative here, and Sansa followed suit.
  • Then Glover and Royce suggest they ought to make her Queen in the North and not support Jon anymore. Arya walks in accidentally and watches Sansa's response to it. Her words repeat that Jon is king and he's doing what he believes is in the interest of his people, but no more than that. Given that she has publically has shown to disagree with a lot of Jon's decisions (that Arya didn't witness), Sansa is indeed leaving room for Glover and Royce to believe that she wishes they had elected her queen. She's not actually displaying Stark unity. This is what Arya notices and picks up on. Sansa confides in her how Jon isn't making it easy on her, and Arya confronts her calmly. It's not something that comes across as envy or anger, but holding up a mirror to Sansa, and to not lie to her. The camera lingers on Sansa, after Arya has left, to ponder things (I guess to fight every battle everywhere always in her mind). But they do show Sansa pondering and trying to figure out what's going on.
  • Then Arya watches LF pay a servant girl as obvious as can be.
  • She watches him again in an obvious spying manner talk with Glover and Royce (the two men who complained about Jon's absence and voiced to support Sansa as queen. The spying take almost cartoonish forms. Look at me, standing behind this post, with my head peeking out. We don't actually overhear the conversation and Glover and Royce glower more at LF than anything else. So, yes, obviously LF wanted Arya to see him talk as if conspiring with these 2.
  • Next she spies on maester Wolkan giving the letter that Sansa once wrote to Robb, with LF explicitly asking whether it's the only copy and saying, "Lady Sansa asks you for your service". Obviously LF here is setting up the trap to try and make Arya believe that Sansa wants to get rid of a letter that may harm her reputation, and that LF is working in Sansa's interest and how much he is in the confidence of Sansa. Arya steals into his room without waiting long after he leaves it, picking the lock, searches it and find the letter, reads it, leaves, closes the lock and LF the creep smiles satisfied.

Arya looks like a cartoonish amateur in epi 5, following the enemy where he leads her. But epi 4 Brienne-Arya duel scene gave us clues that Arya is the one leading LF, provoking him into taking actions. She wanted him to take notice of her, and thus watch her. Sansa too leads LF to watching Arya.

I don't think Sansa and Arya communicate freely in some secret spot to discuss each other's moves. But she is trying to figure out what Arya is giving as clue directions on how to play it.

I think this time the idea that they are conning LF might be valid. D&D show awareness of memes and what viewers think (see 'still rowing'). And the whole speculation about Arya's arc in S6 being more than what it was at face value even hit mainstream media, including the fact it turned out to be exactly what we saw. I do consider the whole prolonged LF-life WF plot for S7 absurd and a bad idea. But when they put their mind to it, they can execute filler arc minutely and in detail.

Fantastic post.

Wow, I hope this is accurate! Arya is possibly my favorite character in GoT. I love Jon, and Dany, and Tyrion, and Davos, and Tormound and the hound but Arya is just ahead of them.  The training for 3 seasons, and character she has played to this point (being 4 people even prior to her training at the house of black and white) is just awesome, and should pay off here unless...#D&D The way they have formed the plot line of the white hunt #oceans11/12/13 was idiotic. I'm usually a huge supporter of their on screen adaptation, but this one is garbage. Then, we have Jamie and Bron escaping Drogon and Dany via #supercurrent...garbage. The necessary meeting between Jamie and Tyrion could have happened in a cell at Dragonstone or at Blackwater Rush with a parlay then a step toward the armistice by offering Jamie back to Cersei. That would have been MUCH more believable. 

I would love to see a plot where LF is bamboozled by the Starks after all the "chaos" he created through their family. 

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On 8/17/2017 at 0:12 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

Yeah plot doesnt make sense I know.

I really dont know, as far as I am aware she doesnt know. 

But if she did Id Imagine the convo would go.

Sansa - Thanks for saving us Lord Royce

Royce - No problem, when we heard you had been kidnapped by the boltons we rushed to your aid to save you

Sansa - Wait what?!? I wasnt kidnapped, LF arranged the whole thing.....

Royce - Wait til I get hold of that Scheming mother fucker.

LF is executed.

HAHAHA! Thank you. I needed that. 

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On 8/16/2017 at 10:35 PM, A Time for Starks said:

I’ve thought long and hard about this, and the Arya, Sansa and Littlefinger plotline is clear: Arya and Sansa are the ones playing Littlefinger (not the other way around).  The supposed rift developing between the sisters is an act, and they’re the ones playing Littlefinger at his own game.

Two Main Reasons:

  1. Sansa’s time with Littlefinger has led to two things: 1. Through his tutelage, she has now learned how to be a smart political player of this game, and 2. She has learned that Littlefinger is only in it for himself and will do whatever it takes to accumulate all the power, including destroying others that Sansa cares about.  On the first point, think of the dialogue clues from earlier in the season.  Sansa says to Jon “we have to be smarter than Robb and father.”  Tyrion and Jon conversation, about Sansa being smarter than letting on, and Jon responding with “she’s starting to let on.”  These lines of dialogue are in there for a reason.  She’s not dumb.  She knows what Littlefinger is up to.  She knows he wants all of the power.  She’s no longer the person to just sit back and be the one being played.  She will now do the playing.

  2. Aria’s training with the faceless men and her interest in the theater company has led her to be a convincing actress.  I believe she is just playing a part of the angry sister in the scene with Sansa and playing the part of the clumsy spy in the scenes with Littlefinger. 

Two Supporting Reasons:

  1. Deaths in this series are often ironic in some fashion (not sure if ironic is the right word here but that’s all I could think of).  One of Ned’s first scenes is him beheading a deserter of the night’s watch, then he is beheaded.  Tywin is the most respected man in Westeros, and he is killed on the toilet.  Stannis is a great military commander and he is killed by being taken by surprise militarily.  Ramsey kills others with dogs, and he gets killed by his own dogs.  Olenna poisons Joffrey at his wedding, then she drinks poison to kill herself while confessing to Joffrey’s murder.  I am sure there are more, but you get the point.  What would be more fitting to this series than Littlefinger, the one who plays everyone in his quest for power, gets played himself and it leads to his death.

  2. I believe Bran also plays a role here.  Think of Bran’s scene with Littlefinger, “Chaos is a Ladder” is meant to basically say that Bran knows what Littlefinger is up to and how big of a scumbag he is (because even though Sansa knows the type of person Littlefinger is, she doesn’t know the extent of all he’s done).  And behind the scenes, Bran could be informing Sansa and Aria about all of this.

     

So I believe behind the scenes the Stark kids are working together.  And the scenes we are seeing are just an act since they know Littlefinger will have spies or some other way to overhear their conversations and track their whereabouts (think of the young lady that is getting paid by Littlefinger in this most recent episode, probably a Littlefinger spy).  If true, this would be in some ways a culmination of the three Stark kids greatest gifts coming together to bring down Littlefinger.  Bran can see what Littlefinger has done and is doing/will do and he conveys that to the Stark sisters.  Sansa is now a powerful political player in this game that will no longer be the pawn in someone else’s game.  And Aria is a sneaky assassin with the ability to convincingly lie and act.  When working together and using all of these abilities together they beat Littlefinger at his own game.

What do you think?

Great break down. 

1. I do love how the fight seen had multiple levels of depth to it. Physically, Arya displayed the fighting style of each of her mentors, psychologically, she played out traps she learned how to set through her various mentors as well!  

2. I believe you in that all 3 Stark children are involved in the downfall of LF.  They have to be. There is no way Arya is being clumsy with this after #huoseofblackandwhitetrials 

1.This seems to be a plot line throughout the entire story for all character arcs. You nailed this one.

2. Agreed.

LF wouldn't be a supervillian if any one character could take him down. With all the remaining Starks working together, I believe it has been played correctly for all character arcs.

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21 hours ago, ImNoSer said:

you shouldnt get your hopes up, ive noticed getting my hopes up with this show is what causes me to continue watching, only to be let down by shit writing.

Same here :(. The only reason I still watch at all is because I just love the characters so much that even watching them as badly written fan fiction is better than nothing.

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