A Time for Starks

Sansa and Aria are Playing Littlefinger (Not the Other Way Around)

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23 hours ago, ImNoSer said:

you shouldnt get your hopes up, ive noticed getting my hopes up with this show is what causes me to continue watching, only to be let down by shit writing.

The sad thing is that I had successfully lowered my expectations, and was still enjoying things even into the new season, forgiving the teleporting etc. But it feels like episode 5 and the leaked 6 are just so contrived and lowering the bar again drastically. 

I can only hope they just had to hit certain story beats and had certain fanservice things they wanted to get out of their system and will settle down for the finale and the next season. It will still be weird since even if the series becomes a masterpiece for season 8, that it got there with the weirdness of episode 5 and 6 and that as we're discussing here LF is presumably toast in a somewhat unfortunate manner. 

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On 8/18/2017 at 4:39 PM, sweetsunray said:

Yes it is an issue. Arya isn't like her mother who makes the mistake to believe her sister to be trustworthy just because she's her sister.

At her arrival at WF she knows this:

  • Sansa wanted to be queen of 7K and was in love with Joffrey, so much that she'd rather lie about the Trident incident and throw Arya under the bus
  • Sansa's still engaged to marry Joffrey at Ned's beheading. DId Arya see Sansa's distress and fainting while Yoren prevented her from looking?
  • Then LF visits Harrenhal, and speaks of "after Stannis and Robb Stark are defeated", and that he met with her mother Catelyn regarding a proposal about her daughters. And before that he talks of how Margaery wants to be "queen".
  • Next, much later, she was present at the Red Wedding, outside the Twins, where her mother and Robb were killed.
  • While she's with the Hound she learns Sansa married Tyrion Lannister.
  • She knows Lysa Arryn is dead at the Vale
  • At Braavos she sees a play about the Purple Wedding, where Sansa and Tyrion are portrayed as scheming to poison Joffrey to take the throne themselves.
  • By the time she gets to WF: Jon is absent and Sansa is Lady of WF
  • When asked, Sansa says that yes, Arya has to call her Lady Stark now. (Has Sansa called Jon "Your Grace"?)
  • Sansa did not murder Joffrey after all, but says she wanted to. And Arya warms to her enough to hug her sincerely.
  • She learns LF is at WF via the dagger, but Sansa shows signs of distrusting him and explains quickly he chose to back House Stark.

Some times elapses. We can assume that in that time Arya also learns off-screen that Sansa was Lady Bolton, and married seemingly voluntarily into the family involved in the Red Wedding, was mistreated, conquered WF together with Jon after a battle in which Rickon was killed by Ramsay. But also that she set his dogs on him. 

All would seem right by Arya: even if her sister once wanted to be queen and loved Joffrey she seemed to have gone through a hard journey, and got her family priorities straight again.

Then she notices that even if Sansa goes through the motions of pointing out that Jon is king, it is not heartfelt and she was pleased that at least two lords said they'd back her as Queen in the North. Sansa is ambitious. There's nothing wrong with having ambition, but how far is Sansa willing to go for it is not an unreasonable question for Arya to have. And Sansa is not entirely honest about these feelings and desires to Arya (or herself really), which is a mistake, because it makes it look as if she's trying to hide her true motivations.

Then those 2 lords seem to collude with LF and LF makes it look as if Sansa wants to suppress a letter. That letter turns out to be one of utter disloyalty to the Starks: calling their own father a traitor and asking Robb to bend the knee, praising Joffrey for she is to be his queen. Arya would be stupid to ignore this letter by merely assuming that Sansa was only young and naive at the time by herself. That's what Catelyn did with Lysa. At the very least, with such ambiguous behavior and her marrying into the family of their enemies, and LF's past and present behavior, it's normal that Arya would confront her. And if Sansa were to lie or excuse it, that's gonna look even worse.

Does show-Sansa have the self-awareness and the courage to admit to Arya that she treated Arya horribly, that she was a stupid, silly, conceited girl who was so blindly in love with a monster that she rather beleaved their father to be a traitor and Cersei manipulated her ambition and desires to write such a letter? Or will she defend it as "I did what I needed to do to survive and didn't mean any of that"? The latter would be a lie. She was mistreated and a hostage and abused, but that actually happened after the letter, not during.

In that sense, if LF wants chaos, he's smart to once again use Sansa's inherent ambitions to cause doubt in Arya. But on the other hand it would be just nuts to anger someone trained to be an assassin against the woman he lusts after.

 

Spot on. 

I don't know if there will be a great display of the emotional tides to turn here between the sisters. I believe the "lying game" training Arya received  at the HoB&W will have to be relied upon heavily for this to work out. Remember, D&D are in fast forward mode. Even though this is the longest episode in the series to date (reportedly 71 min), they will still have to zoom through some 10-30 second explanations using cheap exposition (Randyl: "All the gold has made it back safely to KL, my lord"). tangent alert I think D&D should have gone the full 10 for a total of 9 seasons to explain all they wanted to. End tangent alert  

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Sansa and Aria are Playing Littlefinger (Not the Other Way Around)

Hmmm, we can safely say that episode 6 put paid to that theory.  It would have been more clever if they had been plotting to trap Littlefinger but it's just turned out to be genuine petty sibling rivalry.

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5 hours ago, storm.131 said:

Sansa and Aria are Playing Littlefinger (Not the Other Way Around)

Hmmm, we can safely say that episode 6 put paid to that theory.  It would have been more clever if they had been plotting to trap Littlefinger but it's just turned out to be genuine petty sibling rivalry.

I disagree that episode 6 debunks the theory.  I think we have yet to see how this all plays out.

I'll add this: In the Sansa - Littlefinger scene, Sansa is looking for ideas from Littlefinger on what do to about her sister.  Littlefinger suggests keeping Brienne around for protection.  The very next Sansa scene, Sansa sends Brienne away.  If she is genuinely concerned about her sister, and Littlefinger's advice carries any weight, why would Sansa do this?

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On 8/18/2017 at 3:55 PM, fire&blood said:

That would be so amazing!

I've been saying that would happen for about 2 seasons now and am always wrong, so don't get your hopes up. I know less than Jon Snow.

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1 hour ago, A Time for Starks said:

I disagree that episode 6 debunks the theory.  I think we have yet to see how this all plays out.

I'll add this: In the Sansa - Littlefinger scene, Sansa is looking for ideas from Littlefinger on what do to about her sister.  Littlefinger suggests keeping Brienne around for protection.  The very next Sansa scene, Sansa sends Brienne away.  If she is genuinely concerned about her sister, and Littlefinger's advice carries any weight, why would Sansa do this?

I hope you are right because it would improve the story, however the interaction between them when they were alone suggests to me there is no plot to trap Littlefinger.

One reason Brienne has been sent away could be so she can't interfere if Littlefinger and Sansa take action against Arya.

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16 hours ago, storm.131 said:

I hope you are right because it would improve the story, however the interaction between them when they were alone suggests to me there is no plot to trap Littlefinger.

One reason Brienne has been sent away could be so she can't interfere if Littlefinger and Sansa take action against Arya.

Brienne was sent away to give LF confidence in pulling the trigger on his scheme.  Their private conversation was meant to give LF confidence that his wedge is working.

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20 hours ago, Illiterati said:

Brienne was sent away to give LF confidence in pulling the trigger on his scheme.  Their private conversation was meant to give LF confidence that his wedge is working.

I doubt it, but we'll see soon enough.

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6 minutes ago, storm.131 said:

I doubt it, but we'll see soon enough.

Yep, makes more sense that Sansa would collude with LF to murder Arya.  That totally makes more sense, murdering her sister is an obvious point in Sansa's character arc.:blink:

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Posted (edited)

On 23/08/2017 at 10:47 AM, Illiterati said:

Yep, makes more sense that Sansa would collude with LF to murder Arya.  That totally makes more sense, murdering her sister is an obvious point in Sansa's character arc.:blink:

Yup, because everything else in the show has made perfect sense LOL

Seriously, though, I think you are giving the writers too much credit.

This whole season has been full of ridiculous storylines.

 

Edited by storm.131
Addition

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Posted (edited)

PS I didn't say anything about murder.  It wouldn't be the first or last time that siblings have plotted against one another in the show (or even the real world for that matter), so I don't know why you find it so unbelievable that Sansa and Arya would go down that road.  Given that the girls have always clashed, it makes sense that they aren't best friends now that they are older.

My theory is that Arya is trying to trap Littlefinger on her own and whether Sansa falls along with him, or joins forces with her, doesn't bother Arya too much.  This is the only thing that would make sense to me (but then I haven't read any spoilers, so it's just my opinion based on what I've seen on the show).

Edited by storm.131

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But we're talking about Mary Sue #1 and Mary Sue #2 here.  None of what they are doing makes any sense to what D&D have built of their characters, except that it is all a ruse.  LF would be the obvious target of the ruse.

 

And a smart conman would realize LF develops spies everywhere, and play their con in private where LF would get word of it but not suspect that it was targeted at him.

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Wow. I should know.

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Well that played out in an interesting way.

Based on the conversation Arya and Sansa had after Littlefinger was dispatched, it seems to me that the writers didn't want us to believe the girls were setting up Littlefinger from the start and the squabbles were genuine initially but they came to their senses in time, which was ok I guess.

What wasn't ok was that Littlefinger was so inept at defending himself.  The tears and begging were really too much.

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I saw the Bran article.  Yea, I’m disappointed that’s the direction the writers went. 

Because I still want to believe that both Arya and Sansa are better than petty squabbling and clumsy spying, I’ll choose to believe my own version of events even if it’s not what the writers intended, since it was never shown on the show either way.

They had the scene where Bran revealed the Littlefinger plot to Sansa, but then chose to cut it.  I feel like maybe they chose to cut it afterwards to leave the plot open to interpretation as to when the girls started scheming together.  There was no mention of a Sansa – Arya interaction after Bran informing Sansa of Littlefinger's intention.  The reason that’s important is because of Arya’s reaction during Sansa’s reveal.  She clearly knows it's not herself that is the one in danger.  So Arya and Sansa had to conspire at some point, and I’m going with that it’s just open to interpretation as to when that actually occurred.

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