Did Tywin give up on Jaime?

[mr.archanfel]

In the chapter where Tyrion was named the hand of the king, he thought Tywin had gave up on Jaime and he became the only son. However, after the battle of blackwater bay, Tywin started to mistreat Tyrion again despite Jaime still in enemy hand. Does that mean Tyrion was wrong and Tywin never gave up on Jaime? 

Also, what's Tywin's plan regarding his heir? Did he still hold hope that Jaime would quit the King's guard? 

[Jordan La Cabra]

When Jaime returns to King's Landing in ASoS, Tywin informs him that he plans to bribe the High Septon to release him from his Kingsguard Vows in order to find a wife for him along with a new husband for Cersei. Jaime refuses it point blank, as he doesn't want another woman other than Cersei, nor does he want to be sent back to be Lord of Casterly Rock. After his time spent with Brienne, he no longer wants to be an oathbreaker, hence his choice of the name for the sword Tywin gave him that he passed onto Brienne 'Oathkeeper'. Tywin reacts to Jaime's refusal by telling Jaime he is not his son.

I don't believe Tywin ever gave up on Jaime.

[Castellan]

59 minutes ago, mr.archanfel said:

In the chapter where Tyrion was named the hand of the king, he thought Tywin had gave up on Jaime and he became the only son. However, after the battle of blackwater bay, Tywin started to mistreat Tyrion again despite Jaime still in enemy hand. Does that mean Tyrion was wrong and Tywin never gave up on Jaime? 

Also, what's Tywin's plan regarding his heir? Did he still hold hope that Jaime would quit the King's guard? 

I think Tyrion suddenly leaping to the idea that since Jaime wasn't there Tywin had given up on him and was paying attention to Tyrion at last, was a complete fantasy based on his own neediness. Tywin was impressed by Tyrion turning up alive with a band of supporters. He decides to make use of him despite his reservations about Tyrion. But his entire focus at that time is in retrieving Jaime and having revenge on those who dared to capture him, because Tywin can't tolerate the Starks' holding Jaime hostage, any more than he could stand Aerys doing so.

When Tywin later says 'you are not my son' he is paraphrasing Jaime, and is deeply hurt (see below). He has to abandon his immediate plan to set his family to rights but I don't think he ever gives up on Jaime eventually somehow inheriting the Rock. 

"She can die a maiden as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son—" 

"I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that's all I mean to be!"

Firelight gleamed golden in the stiff whiskers that framed Lord Tywin's face. A vein pulsed in his neck, but he did not speak. And did not speak. And did not speak.

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. "Father . . ." he began.

"You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty."

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Tywin cleaned up after Jaime and Cersei their entire lives. He won their wars, killed their enemies and even made Cersei Queen. Neither of them show him much appreciation though.

The fact that Jaime even wanted to become a Kingsguard after the age of 8 is as ridiculous to me as it was to Tywin. He is heir to Casterly Rock and gave that up to guard Aerys' door while he raped his sister-wife.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, mr.archanfel said:

In the chapter where Tyrion was named the hand of the king, he thought Tywin had gave up on Jaime and he became the only son. However, after the battle of blackwater bay, Tywin started to mistreat Tyrion again despite Jaime still in enemy hand. Does that mean Tyrion was wrong and Tywin never gave up on Jaime? 

Also, what's Tywin's plan regarding his heir? Did he still hold hope that Jaime would quit the King's guard? 

I suspect Tywin continued to harbor hope, right up until that last attempt to s#!^ gold, that Jaime would succeed him as the Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, perhaps even Hand of the King. 

[Dofs]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The fact that Jaime even wanted to become a Kingsguard after the age of 8 is as ridiculous to me as it was to Tywin. He is heir to Casterly Rock and gave that up to guard Aerys' door while he raped his sister-wife.

Jaime didn't want to become a KG. Cersei was 'convincing' him whole night to become one until Jaime finally gave in. Before that Jaime was fully prepared to become a Lord of Casterly Rock.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Jaime didn't want to become a KG. Cersei was 'convincing' him whole night to become one until Jaime finally gave in. Before that Jaime was fully prepared to become a Lord of Casterly Rock.

Still, it was his choice and he made it. He didn't have to listen to Cersei. He could still sleep with his sister as heir to Casterly Rock.

[punzerknacker]

It has always bugged me how unrealistic it is that Tywin wouldn't remarry and attempt to make more heirs. And if his intention was to get Jaime out of the kingsguard why wait until now and not do it earlier? Jaime became kingsguard as a teenager, Tywin had more than enough time to produce another heir, at least for the case that something happened to Jaime (as he didn't want Tyrion to inherit the Rock).

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Still, it was his choice and he made it. He didn't have to listen to Cersei. He could still sleep with his sister as heir to Casterly Rock.

Jaime at that point was easily influenced so it kinda was his choice and kinda wasn't.

[Castellan]

4 hours ago, punzerknacker said:

It has always bugged me how unrealistic it is that Tywin wouldn't remarry and attempt to make more heirs. And if his intention was to get Jaime out of the kingsguard why wait until now and not do it earlier? Jaime became kingsguard as a teenager, Tywin had more than enough time to produce another heir, at least for the case that something happened to Jaime (as he didn't want Tyrion to inherit the Rock).

Tywin's a combination of a hard Lord's head and emotional drives. I can picture the experience of loathing the woman his Father brought into the house would put him off remarriage and giving his children a stepmother. And he loved Jaime. I don't think that's so bad. 

 

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Tywin cleaned up after Jaime and Cersei their entire lives. He won their wars, killed their enemies and even made Cersei Queen. Neither of them show him much appreciation though.

The fact that Jaime even wanted to become a Kingsguard after the age of 8 is as ridiculous to me as it was to Tywin. He is heir to Casterly Rock and gave that up to guard Aerys' door while he raped his sister-wife.

 

Its good to see it from Tywin's point of view but Tywin's driving neurosis also drove his children mad so they never could pick up the conventional burdens. And some people have a romantic outlook not suited to it. The glamour of the KG with Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar around combined with Cersei's manipulation were enough to make him join the KG. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, punzerknacker said:

It has always bugged me how unrealistic it is that Tywin wouldn't remarry and attempt to make more heirs. And if his intention was to get Jaime out of the kingsguard why wait until now and not do it earlier? Jaime became kingsguard as a teenager, Tywin had more than enough time to produce another heir, at least for the case that something happened to Jaime (as he didn't want Tyrion to inherit the Rock).

He had Tommen. And might have looked with favor upon on of his nephews. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

24 minutes ago, Castellan said:

The glamour of the KG with Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar around combined with Cersei's manipulation were enough to make him join the KG. 

Sure. However the heir to Casterly Rock or say Highgarden giving up their inheritance to become a member of the KG doesn't seem like a common occurrence in Westeros. 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I pretty much entirely agree with everything @Castellan has already said.  I will add though that it isn't like Jaime had a choice in the KG matter.  What was he going to do, say no to Aerys?  It isn't confirmed that Cersei had any direct contact with Aerys (because why would she) to even put the idea in his head - Aerys probably independently realized that he could hurt Tywin's pride and take a hostage from him by naming Jaime to the KG, knowing Tywin couldn't refuse such an honor.  If Tywin couldn't refuse it on Jaime's behalf then Jaime certainly couldn't refuse it.  It is in fact what caused Tywin to resign as Hand.  I am sure Tywin thought this whole time that once Aerys was gone Jaime would resume being his heir.  Then once Jaime was pardoned by Robert and served a few years he would be his heir again.  Tywin never gave up hope.

 

The only reason Tywin named Tyrion acting hand is because Tywin knew, especially after Ned's beheading, that Joffrey had to be controlled and Tyrion was a much better option than Cersei.  Even if he didn't like to give Tyrion any credit for anything, he did know that Tyrion was the best Lannister for the task given that Tywin and Kevan had more important things to do (like win the war and rescue Jaime).  It had nothing to do with him acknowledging Tyrion as a potential heir.

[Castellan]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Sure. However the heir to Casterly Rock or say Highgarden giving up their inheritance to become a member of the KG doesn't seem like a common occurrence in Westeros. 

No, it was more or less a bizarre hostage taking by Aerys, well timed to stop Tywin joining in any Northern conspiracy, if there was one. The other KG thought he was too young and Rhaegar knew he was his Aerys' 'crutch'. I imagine normally the king would check with the father whether he was prepared to give up his 15 year old heir before naming him. I wonder if it was Varys who Cersei had a word to, or if in fact he put the idea in Cersei's mind first?

[Shmedricko]

19 hours ago, mr.archanfel said:

Also, what's Tywin's plan regarding his heir? Did he still hold hope that Jaime would quit the King's guard? 

Ran: If the Kingsguard forswear wives or inheritances, how can Jaime Lannister be heir to Casterly Rock?

George_RR_Martin: Simple answer: Lord Tywin is in denial. If he admitted that Jaime wasn't heir, he'd have to admit that Tyrion was. And that he has a hard time swallowing.

-Event Horizon Chat

[Castellan]

27 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

Ran: If the Kingsguard forswear wives or inheritances, how can Jaime Lannister be heir to Casterly Rock?

George_RR_Martin: Simple answer: Lord Tywin is in denial. If he admitted that Jaime wasn't heir, he'd have to admit that Tyrion was. And that he has a hard time swallowing.

-Event Horizon Chat

Interesting. But he did come up with a way out for Jaime. Maybe realising Jaime wouldn't take it made him more inclined to let Tyrion die for Joffrey's death.

[The Sleeper]

It is possible that at the time Tywin believed that he might never see Jaime again. Not only did they not have an equivalent hostage, but pretty much the whole realm expected Robb to execute Jaime.

That said, I believe that Tyrion missed the point. Tywin was buttering him up.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

It is possible that at the time Tywin believed that he might never see Jaime again. Not only did they not have an equivalent hostage, but pretty much the whole realm expected Robb to execute Jaime.

That said, I believe that Tyrion missed the point. Tywin was buttering him up.

Agreed Tywin calculates what he would do and odds are he is going to loose his son, as time gos on odds are Robb won't kill him, after all he did not kill him to avenge Ned.

There is also truth in Tywin seeing Tyrion as capable

[The Sleeper]

4 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Agreed Tywin calculates what he would do and odds are he is going to loose his son, as time gos on odds are Robb won't kill him, after all he did not kill him to avenge Ned.

There is also truth in Tywin seeing Tyrion as capable

Slightly irrelevant in this case. He has known Tyrion is smart all along. That is part of the problem for Tywin. On some level he knows that Tyrion understands him and that is what he can't abide. Tyrion and Tywin are twisted mirror images of eachother.

He has not given him any duties whatsoever before. He considers him a stain on house Lannister. He wasn't above having him hold the left, during the battle and I think sending him in his stead in King's Landing is not that different. And see how it turned out. Tyrion did a lot of the dirty work and Tywin came and sat his ass down claiming all the credit.

Tyrion is not entirely wrong though. Tywin could not have gotten Jaime without major concessions and that is simply not an option for Tywin.

[Humble Maester]

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Slightly irrelevant in this case. He has known Tyrion is smart all along. That is part of the problem for Tywin. On some level he knows that Tyrion understands him and that is what he can't abide. Tyrion and Tywin are twisted mirror images of eachother.

He has not given him any duties whatsoever before. He considers him a stain on house Lannister. He wasn't above having him hold the left, during the battle and I think sending him in his stead in King's Landing is not that different. And see how it turned out. Tyrion did a lot of the dirty work and Tywin came and sat his ass down claiming all the credit.

Tyrion is not entirely wrong though. Tywin could not have gotten Jaime without major concessions and that is simply not an option for Tywin.

To be fair, Tyrion does do his utmost to screw up every opportunity he gets to show Tywin his ability. I am not even going to get into his childhood marriage and the tragic and horrific end that came to but even in King's Landing he did exactly what Tywin had told him not to do, to not take his prostitute surrogate-lover to court which ended up with Tyrion making threats against his own family to protect the prostitute. Any good will Tyrion might had gained with Tywin for his apt handling of the situation in King's Landing went mostly down the drain with that. Also Tyrion would had lost the city and his life if it was not for his father and the Tyrells arriving to kick Stannis' ass.

Although Tywin did award Tyrion with one of the most important positions in the realm and a wife of great prestige even after that, so who knows. Tywin probably does recognize than even after all of Tyrion's screw ups Tyrion is still a Lannister that Tywin can have use for. Well at least until the alleged regicide but that's something only Jaime could get away with.