iprayiam

Why is it assumed that the White Walkers will make it past the Wall?

52 posts in this topic

I can't remember this being spelled out in the show, although maybe it has been. But why does Jon assume that the White Walkers *will* make it past the wall? He is preparing for a war on Westerosi soil, but shouldn't he at this time mostly be interested in manning the wall?

At this point, it just seems like a given to Jon that the Walkers will make it through, and I'm trying to remember if there's justification for that, if I'm misreading it altogether, or if Jon Snow has just been reading ahead in the script.

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Anyone? Maybe a better way of stating the question is: 

Has anything happened in show to give characters or viewers evidence that the White Walkers have the means to get past/through the wall? If not, why is Jon persuading the North / Dany /Cersei to battle them?

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Posted (edited)

If they don't make it past the wall, there is no point to the entire series.

But anyhoo, I don't believe they've done a good job of conveying the threat in the show series.  I'm not a reader, but I've read enough posts from readers to see that there is a mechanism by which the NK would be able to destroy the magic woven into the wall.

Edited by Illiterati

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Posted (edited)

Spoiler

Horn of the Winter, I believe Sam found it along with the obsidian arrows and spear points in first season. Where it is now though, I have no idea.

But probably gonna be something lame, completely negating the 'magical part of the Wall' because there is no screen time available to focus on such marginal things. Better to focus more on Danny and Missandei having a girl talk about how cute Jon ass is.

#breaktheinternet #cute #girlsjustwannahavefun

Edited by plastic throne

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

If they don't make it past the wall, there is no point to the entire series.

But anyhoo, I don't believe they've done a good job of conveying the threat in the show series.  I'm not a reader, but I've read enough posts from readers to see that there is a mechanism by which the NK would be able to destroy the magic woven into the wall.

7 minutes ago, plastic throne said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Horn of the Winter, I believe Sam found it along with the obsidian arrows and spear points in first season. Where it is now though, I have no idea.

But probably gonna be something lame, completely negating the 'magical part of the Wall' because there is no screen time available to focus on such marginal things. Better to focus more on Danny and Missandei having a girl talk about how cute Jon ass is.

#breaktheinternet #cute #girlsjustwannahavefun

I think you both misunderstand my question.  Obviously Rule of Drama, it is going to happen. But for those living in Westeros, unless they are Deadpool, they don't know things will play out as a dramatic narrative. Is there any evidence in universe for Jon et al. to expect the Wall will fall?

 

Because, I understand being prepared for the worst case, but it seems like he's taking it as a given.  Like the existence of the wall isn't even metioned, which would otherwise require a very different strategy for defense.

 

 

Edited by iprayiam

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Posted (edited)

Good point. But I imagine Jon thinks because most of the castles at the wall are in ruins there's no time to convince the houses to send their people to train, repair the castles, supply them with food and man them. So he probably assumes the wall will be overrun at some point anyways. So better train and prepare in the comfort of their own homes I suppose? I'm not sure he knows about the magic, since he hasn't talked to Bran yet. I'm curious too.

Edited by Eddard Scissorhands

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Posted (edited)

I think Jon simply assumes the enemy knows what he's doing.

He saw how mighty AoD is and knows it's marching towards the Wall, so it's natural of him to expect that WW think they should be able to make it past the wall. And if enemies that strong think they will make it, humans should prepare for the fact that they may likely be correct in this regard and make it.

It does not mean Jon is preparing solely for in-Westeros fight, I don't recall anything in the dialogue to state that*. Pretty sure if at the point of 7x5 discussion Dany has left him at 'I am going to fight with the men I have', this fighting with the men he has would mean fight on the Wall. But due to the reasoning in the 1st paragraph, it's reasonable to prepare also for the 2nd scenario and, even more importantly, in all the discussions with Dany (which are the major part of based on what we judge 'what he is preparing for') it makes sense to only talk about the 2nd scenario as 'so probable that almost given' as this is the scenario in which Dany is affected if she doesn't help.

* (Sansa is the one who kinda-states that, I think we can infer she assumes the main fight will take place at Winterfell - and from the storytelling perspective she's probably right. But it's perfectly fine of her to assume that: it's not her authority to prepare fight on the Wall but it is her authority to prepare Winterfell. If the fight ends at the Wall then her actions are not very relevant, so it's reasonable of her to make actions which make sense under the assumption they will be relevant.)

Edited by kirt

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Seems like the possibility exists in ancient lore, which the people of Westeros have dismissed as myth ("Grumpkins and Snarks").  The Night's Watch has seen them, and once you see that NK, WW and wights exist, it lends credence to the idea that the rest of the myth, that the NK will bring battle to Westeros.  Again, I don't think the showrunners have done a good job of conveying the mythological history of the story.  Only Bran, through visions and possibly his connection with NK, could be fully aware that they are coming, and I don't think he's shared that with anyone until he sent a raven to Jon that they are moving on Eastwatch.

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Posted (edited)

49 minutes ago, kirt said:

I think Jon simply assumes the enemy knows what he's doing.

He saw how mighty AoD is and knows it's marching towards the Wall, so it's natural of him to expect that WW think they should be able to make it past the wall. And if enemies that strong think they will make it, humans should prepare for the fact that they may likely be correct in this regard and make it.

It does not mean Jon is preparing solely for in-Westeros fight, I don't recall anything in the dialogue to state that*. Pretty sure if at the point of 7x5 discussion Dany has left him at 'I am going to fight with the men I have', this fighting with the men he has would mean fight on the Wall. But due to the reasoning in the 1st paragraph, it's reasonable to prepare also for the 2nd scenario and, even more importantly, in all the discussions with Dany (which are the major part of based on what we judge 'what he is preparing for') it makes sense to only talk about the 2nd scenario as 'so probable that almost given' as this is the scenario in which Dany is affected if she doesn't help.

 

33 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Seems like the possibility exists in ancient lore, which the people of Westeros have dismissed as myth ("Grumpkins and Snarks").  The Night's Watch has seen them, and once you see that NK, WW and wights exist, it lends credence to the idea that the rest of the myth, that the NK will bring battle to Westeros.  Again, I don't think the showrunners have done a good job of conveying the mythological history of the story.  Only Bran, through visions and possibly his connection with NK, could be fully aware that they are coming, and I don't think he's shared that with anyone until he sent a raven to Jon that they are moving on Eastwatch.

I think both of these responses make sense. I would have liked a few lines that acknowledged this more. Things feel very rushed or assumed at the current pace and conversations often feel whittled to the bare minimum. So I'm not always sure what is assumed to be known or spoken off-screen, what might have been conveyed in previous episodes, or what is just altogether skipped.

Jon's discussion of the "Army of the Dead" to Dany is a good example. Onscreen he barely said more than a sentence or two about their existence, without giving any details. Of course a tedious recap of everything he knows so far would be bad, but I believe there's middle ground. There's some laziness in assuming X character knows or doesn't know what is necessary to get them through their scene.

I would have appreciated even a small exchange like this:

Jon: The Army of the Dead Marches on Westeros as we speak!

Tyrion: Well then it's a good thing, a giant wall of ice stands between us.

Jon: And how long with that hold against an army that does not eat, sleep sleep or die? If there's even a chance they will get through, we must be ready.

(Tyrion: Speaking of the Wall-ephant in the room, aren't you sworn to be there defending it, "King"?)

 

Edited by iprayiam

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well in the show magic is absent so jon might think that the wall is just a wall and has no magic in it or something. But it's also about "well it's the worst thing that can happen so it will probably happen with our luck". Plus it never hurts to be ready for it.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

 

I think both of these responses make sense. I would have liked a few lines that acknowledged this more. Things feel very rushed or assumed at the current pace and conversations often feel whittled to the bare minimum. So I'm not always sure what is assumed to be known or spoken off-screen, what might have been conveyed in previous episodes, or what is just altogether skipped.

Yes, I'm all with you on this. Yet now in the realm of scenes and plots which can't be given any reasonable explanation to save from a status of a plot hole, the scenes which have good explanation but only inferred rather than stated, we must count as good enough :D

 

Quote

Jon's discussion of the "Army of the Dead" to Dany is a good example. Onscreen he barely said more than a sentence or two about their existence, without giving any details. Of course a tedious recap of everything he knows so far would be bad, but I believe there's middle ground. There's some laziness in assuming X character knows or doesn't know what is necessary to get them through their scene.

I would have appreciated even a small exchange like this:

Jon: The Army of the Dead Marches on Westeros as we speak!

Tyrion: Well then it's a good thing, a giant wall of ice stands between us.

Jon: And how long with that hold against an army that does not eat, sleep sleep or die? If there's even a chance they will get through, we must be ready.

(Tyrion: Speaking of the Wall-ephant in the room, aren't you sworn to be there defending it, "King"?)

 

It was not that very far from it.

Jon: Bran saw the Night King and his army marching towards Eastwatch. If they make it past the Wall...

Tyrion: The Wall has kept them out for thousands of years, presumably.

Jon: I need to go home.
 

Though I feel the sentence like your last one might've been missing here (the sentence about Jon's vows as well, presumably on earlier stage of negotiations ;)). On the other hand, it's not that stupid of Jon to act 'This is 100% fatal news, I need to go, bye, bye. Oh, almost forgot: will you help after all??' rather than discussing 'If there's even a chance they will get through, we must be ready.' It's not exactly in best interest of his agenda to steer the discussion into where he can hear Dany asking 'Well, so how big in your judgement this 'a chance' is? That's wise of you to be prepared for this 'chance' but maybe you have enough men for the time being after all?'

Edited by kirt

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BenJen has described the magic in the wall to Bran.  We don't know if Jon is aware of the magic.  Can't come to terms with how Mormont's wight survived on the other side of the wall, though.

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 11:14 AM, iprayiam said:

I can't remember this being spelled out in the show, although maybe it has been. But why does Jon assume that the White Walkers *will* make it past the wall? He is preparing for a war on Westerosi soil, but shouldn't he at this time mostly be interested in manning the wall?

At this point, it just seems like a given to Jon that the Walkers will make it through, and I'm trying to remember if there's justification for that, if I'm misreading it altogether, or if Jon Snow has just been reading ahead in the script.

Short answer....

The books/show would be very anti-climatic if the AoD doesn't make it past the wall.

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42 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

BenJen has described the magic in the wall to Bran.  We don't know if Jon is aware of the magic.  Can't come to terms with how Mormont's wight survived on the other side of the wall, though.

Yes, that is a big inconsistency. We saw a wight south of the wall , that shouldn't have been possible given the information we are given. 

The magic is not absent from the show, not only we had Benjen saying to Bran "The Wall is not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundations. Strong magic, to protect men from what lies beyond; and while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass", but we also know that the wildings wanted to go south of the Wall because they would be safe there. Why would Mance Ryder think they would be safe from the WW and wights, if the wall was only a physical obstacle  that he and his people could overcome? If they themselves could climb the wall and take the forts, why could not the Others and wights do the same? So I think that between the freefolk was common knowledge that the wall is not just "ice and stone". 

But the WW have magic too, and we saw that when the Night's King "magically" touches Bran in his greenseeing, he could block the magic that protected the cave. So now that Bran is south of the wall, maybe that is the reason the NK would be able to block the magic in the wall too. 

But Jon does not know any of this (at least that I can recall), so I just think that  nobody who has been at Hardhome,  would expect that the Wall could stop the WW if they are determined to pass.

 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, kirt said:

 

It was not that very far from it.

Jon: Bran saw the Night King and his army marching towards Eastwatch. If they make it past the Wall...

Tyrion: The Wall has kept them out for thousands of years, presumably.

Jon: I need to go home.

Ah! I missed that line. That's what I was looking for. I was wondering whether there was explicit reference to the wall or whether it was assumed useless at this point. Thanks everyone!

Edited by iprayiam

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3 hours ago, plastic throne said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Horn of the Winter, I believe Sam found it along with the obsidian arrows and spear points in first season. Where it is now though, I have no idea.

But probably gonna be something lame, completely negating the 'magical part of the Wall' because there is no screen time available to focus on such marginal things. Better to focus more on Danny and Missandei having a girl talk about how cute Jon ass is.

#breaktheinternet #cute #girlsjustwannahavefun

I thought they tied up the magic of the wall" with the fact that Bran- after being touched by the Night King- was let pass through the wall, and so the Night King can use that "connection" to defeat the wall

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6 minutes ago, Katleesi said:

I thought they tied up the magic of the wall" with the fact that Bran- after being touched by the Night King- was let pass through the wall, and so the Night King can use that "connection" to defeat the wall

If that's the case, Bran's role is in making sure the conflict happens.....Thought we don't know whether he's processed this before crossing the wall.  If it wasn't intentional, then that would be his third huge mistake (Allowing NK to touch him, ruining "Hodor," crossing the Wall).

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, Katleesi said:

I thought they tied up the magic of the wall" with the fact that Bran- after being touched by the Night King- was let pass through the wall, and so the Night King can use that "connection" to defeat the wall

God I hope that is not the case. If so, the Starks are probably the worst what happened to the world od Westeros.

 

4 hours ago, iprayiam said:

I think you both misunderstand my question.  Obviously Rule of Drama, it is going to happen. But for those living in Westeros, unless they are Deadpool, they don't know things will play out as a dramatic narrative. Is there any evidence in universe for Jon et al. to expect the Wall will fall?

Because, I understand being prepared for the worst case, but it seems like he's taking it as a given.  Like the existence of the wall isn't even metioned, which would otherwise require a very different strategy for defense.

Yea, a misunderstanding but I see you (and me actually) already got an answer by kirt and lucymormont. Still though, the show writers might just ignore all this and just have the WW attack the wall. Wouldn't be the first time show abandoning all logic and rules it set in previous episodes.

Edited by plastic throne

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I have another theory how and what will happen for the wall to come down but writting it down here would also spoil one part of the next episode for others (seen the leaked episode). Therefore I will keep quiet until sunday.

The only thing I can say is, I really hope I am wrong about it.

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6 hours ago, iprayiam said:

I think you both misunderstand my question.  Obviously Rule of Drama, it is going to happen. But for those living in Westeros, unless they are Deadpool, they don't know things will play out as a dramatic narrative. Is there any evidence in universe for Jon et al. to expect the Wall will fall?

 

Because, I understand being prepared for the worst case, but it seems like he's taking it as a given.  Like the existence of the wall isn't even metioned, which would otherwise require a very different strategy for defense.

 

 

The Horn of Winter

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