Iron Mother

The Dagger Revealed?

33 posts in this topic

The Valyrian steel dagger belonged to House Targaryen and was owned by Rhaegar.  It was taken by Robert as a spoil of war.  Taken not by Joffrey but by Cersei to send the assassin to silence Bran for what he saw. 

Littlefinger probably didn't even know much about the dagger and took advantage to create strife between Stark and Lannister by telling Catelyn it was Tyrion's through him via a bet against Jaime (which doesn't make sense through several characters' POVs).

For whatever reason it will tie into the Rhaegar reveal through Bran's Sight/knowledge.

What saieth the community?

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I hope you are right.  I've lost some faith in the willingness of D&D to provide historical context surrounding much of the story, though.

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16 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

The Valyrian steel dagger belonged to House Targaryen and was owned by Rhaegar.  It was taken by Robert as a spoil of war.  Taken not by Joffrey but by Cersei to send the assassin to silence Bran for what he saw. 

Littlefinger probably didn't even know much about the dagger and took advantage to create strife between Stark and Lannister by telling Catelyn it was Tyrion's through him via a bet against Jaime (which doesn't make sense through several characters' POVs).

For whatever reason it will tie into the Rhaegar reveal through Bran's Sight/knowledge.

What saieth the community?

I like it. I also think Arya will be forced to use it to kill Bran. and that is why he gave it to her. Like, HE KNOWS. He knows that the Night King touching him back in the North is a death sentence. 

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So I wasn't the only one to see that the dagger given to Bran is the same one Sam saw in the book

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6 minutes ago, dbunting said:

So I wasn't the only one to see that the dagger given to Bran is the same one Sam saw in the book

Nah it's probably been mentioned in that episode's forum 10 times.

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3 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I hope you are right.  I've lost some faith in the willingness of D&D to provide historical context surrounding much of the story, though.

Yes the show has LAPSED in writing in a big way.  Hopefully not too much worse in "the wars to ome" lol

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4 hours ago, Katleesi said:

I like it. I also think Arya will be forced to use it to kill Bran. and that is why he gave it to her. Like, HE KNOWS. He knows that the Night King touching him back in the North is a death sentence. 

I hadn't thought of this. Interesting. I just figured it was going to play into the death of LF.

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21 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

The Valyrian steel dagger belonged to House Targaryen and was owned by Rhaegar.  It was taken by Robert as a spoil of war.  Taken not by Joffrey but by Cersei to send the assassin to silence Bran for what he saw. 

Littlefinger probably didn't even know much about the dagger and took advantage to create strife between Stark and Lannister by telling Catelyn it was Tyrion's through him via a bet against Jaime (which doesn't make sense through several characters' POVs).

For whatever reason it will tie into the Rhaegar reveal through Bran's Sight/knowledge.

What saieth the community?

I really hope so re tying into Rhaegar, like reaaaaally hope.

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I believe warif actually killed arya,in the scene where she slices the candle she very wounded then later in the faceless temple she seems fine and in the direwolf scene this season it looks like the direwolf notices somthin isnt right bout her

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58 minutes ago, Warcrimes said:

I believe warif actually killed arya,in the scene where she slices the candle she very wounded then later in the faceless temple she seems fine and in the direwolf scene this season it looks like the direwolf notices somthin isnt right bout her

Oh I doubt that. Total fan fiction

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On 18/08/2017 at 3:22 AM, Iron Mother said:

The Valyrian steel dagger belonged to House Targaryen and was owned by Rhaegar.  It was taken by Robert as a spoil of war.  Taken not by Joffrey but by Cersei to send the assassin to silence Bran for what he saw. 

This is exactly what I think..... Only problem is why would she already have it on her ??

On 18/08/2017 at 3:22 AM, Iron Mother said:

Littlefinger probably didn't even know much about the dagger and took advantage to create strife between Stark and Lannister by telling Catelyn it was Tyrion's through him via a bet against Jaime (which doesn't make sense through several characters' POVs).

This is the books not the show.

The show is, LF tells Catelyn it was his but he lost the dagger to Tyrion.

On 18/08/2017 at 3:22 AM, Iron Mother said:

For whatever reason it will tie into the Rhaegar reveal through Bran's Sight/knowledge.

What saieth the community?

Probably see it at the tourney of Harrenhal and he'll be wearing it :)

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14 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

This is exactly what I think..... Only problem is why would she already have it on her ??

Robert probably had it on him, which Cersei took from him, if it indeed was Cersei who hired the assassin.

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18 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

This is exactly what I think..... Only problem is why would she already have it on her ??

It was probably already in the caravan when they went to Winterfell. 

Or, the assassin was sent the dagger by "rider in the night" because the attack on Bran didn't happen immediately after Robert was there and left.  who knows

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On 8/17/2017 at 10:22 PM, Iron Mother said:

The Valyrian steel dagger belonged to House Targaryen and was owned by Rhaegar.  It was taken by Robert as a spoil of war.  Taken not by Joffrey but by Cersei to send the assassin to silence Bran for what he saw. 

Littlefinger probably didn't even know much about the dagger and took advantage to create strife between Stark and Lannister by telling Catelyn it was Tyrion's through him via a bet against Jaime (which doesn't make sense through several characters' POVs).

For whatever reason it will tie into the Rhaegar reveal through Bran's Sight/knowledge.

What saieth the community?

Mmm..., my understanding is that in the books it is clear that Joffrey stole the dagger from Robert and gave it to the bad guy sent to kill Bran with it.  (I believe two people deduce that, one of whom is Jaime, and the other of whom may have been Cersei)

If I recall correctly, we know from a Cersei POV chapter that it was NOT her, and we know from a Jaime POV chapter that it was NOT him.  (We know this from their internal monologues).  This dramatically shortens the list of possible suspects.  Why on EARTH would anyone but Cersei or Jaime want Bran dead??

So, what was Joffrey's "motivation"?  As I recall, it is believed that Joffrey heard Robert say something like the merciful thing to do would be to end Bran's life, so Joffrey tried to arrange to make that happen in order to somehow either impress Robert or just for Joffrey's own satisfaction in his own mind that he was capable of doing such a thing.

Of course, we know Joffrey wouldn't need strong motivation to kill someone anyway.  Certainly, he was a sadist, and it is not a stretch to imagine him killing someone on a whim.

Although I do not believe the show has ever confirmed who gave the dagger to the bad guy and sent the bad guy to try to kill Bran, my personal policy in watching the show is that, unless the show directly contradicts the book, I believe book-canon is controlling.

But hey, who knows, maybe D&D are about to reveal to me that in the show it was Cersei.  

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45 minutes ago, Cron said:

Mmm..., my understanding is that in the books it is clear that Joffrey stole the dagger from Robert and gave it to the bad guy sent to kill Bran with it.  (I believe two people deduce that, one of whom is Jaime, and the other of whom may have been Cersei)

If I recall correctly, we know from a Cersei POV chapter that it was NOT her, and we know from a Jaime POV chapter that it was NOT him.  (We know this from their internal monologues).  This dramatically shortens the list of possible suspects.  Why on EARTH would anyone but Cersei or Jaime want Bran dead??

So, what was Joffrey's "motivation"?  As I recall, it is believed that Joffrey heard Robert say something like the merciful thing to do would be to end Bran's life, so Joffrey tried to arrange to make that happen in order to somehow either impress Robert or just for Joffrey's own satisfaction in his own mind that he was capable of doing such a thing.

Of course, we know Joffrey wouldn't need strong motivation to kill someone anyway.  Certainly, he was a sadist, and it is not a stretch to imagine him killing someone on a whim.

Although I do not believe the show has ever confirmed who gave the dagger to the bad guy and sent the bad guy to try to kill Bran, my personal policy in watching the show is that, unless the show directly contradicts the book, I believe book-canon is controlling.

But hey, who knows, maybe D&D are about to reveal to me that in the show it was Cersei.  

It has to be Cersei.  Joffrey hearing Robert say "it would be merciful if he had died than to live as a cripple" and then Joffrey dishing out "mercy" to Bran?  REALLY?  Joffrey and mercy do not go well together.

The show is beyond the books we  all know that.  The ONLY person who had access and motive to use the dagger that way is Cersei.  I don't see Jaime doing it.  The only other person who had access to Robert's dagger is Joffrey and I don't see him dispensing mercy on ANYONE let alone some random Stark boy.

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2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

It has to be Cersei.  Joffrey hearing Robert say "it would be merciful if he had died than to live as a cripple" and then Joffrey dishing out "mercy" to Bran?  REALLY?  Joffrey and mercy do not go well together.

Actually, sending a cutthroat assassin to murder a boy whose mother will almost certainly flip out over it, that seems to fit what Joffrey would think of as "mercy".

But at any rate, IIRC, what Jaime tells first Cersei and then, more clearly, Tyrion is that Joffrey's likely motivation was to impress Robert by proving that he could do the hard things that need to be done, without letting sentiment get in the way—not by proving that he could be merciful—and that seems to fit him very well, and to also work on the show version.

All that being said, I think the books and the show are going to go different ways here. I'm pretty sure that in the books, the point of the dagger showing up over and over is that the true story is never going to be revealed to anyone until it's too late to matter. That's why there are so many red herrings, useless reveals, etc. Ned mistakenly figures out that the dagger is the key clue to Jon Arryn's murder, LF lets Tyrion know that he set him up with the dagger but there's nothing he can do about it, Tyrion mistakenly figures out that LF was behind the assassination as well, Cat learns that LF set Tyrion up but keeps quiet because the damage has already been done and backtracking would only make it worse, LF uses a non-Valyrian-steel dagger with the same plain design as a table knife in front of Sansa, etc.

The show hasn't done any of this—and has instead intentionally lingered on a drawing of the same dagger in Sam's book—so clearly the dagger will be significant on the show.

But on the third hand, I don't think it be significant because it was Cersei rather than Joffrey who ordered the assassination attempt. Because really, who would care? Bran knows he was always destined to be the 3ER and how he got there doesn't matter to him. Arya already has Cersei on her list, and it's not like two attempted murders against Bran plus all the other stuff against her family is much worse than one attempted murder (that resulted in his maiming) plus all the other stuff. And I can't imagine Jaime, or anyone else currently on Cersei's side, would switch because they learned about this. I don't even think any viewers would lower their opinions of Cersei. So why change the story to make it her?

I think its significance might include LF's overconfidence in giving the dagger to the Stark kids being the start of its downfall, but the main point is going to be its historical connection, which I'll get to separately.

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On 8/18/2017 at 1:01 PM, dbunting said:

So I wasn't the only one to see that the dagger given to Bran is the same one Sam saw in the book

The camera lingered on the drawing long enough to make sure we could recognize it, and also probably long enough to make sure at least a few viewers would be able to read the text on the page and talk about it. This has to be intentional. (In fact, we know it's intentional—Sam's actor said he was specifically told to linger on the drawing long enough for them to get a good shot of the page over his shoulder.)

According to that text, the dagger was used as an example to illustrate the way that Aegon I and his successors decorated their Valyrian steel with dragonglass. This was only for ornamentation—the fact that dragonglass is too brittle to use on a real crossguard or the like is exactly what made it a good fashion statement.

So, Arya, who's apparently now the greatest dagger fighter in the world, now has a dagger made of both of the two things that can kill White Walkers. That's a hell of a Chekov's gun. Maybe she stabs a WW with the blade, pulls it, but can't spin it fast enough to stab the Night King coming up behind her, so instead she bashes him with the dragonglass on the hilt?

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2 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But at any rate, IIRC, what Jaime tells first Cersei and then, more clearly, Tyrion is that Joffrey's likely motivation was to impress Robert by proving that he could do the hard things that need to be done, without letting sentiment get in the way—not by proving that he could be merciful—and that seems to fit him very well, and to also work on the show version.

But does this sound like Joffrey to ANYONE reading the post?

Joffrey not letting "sentiment get in the way" to "do what needed to be done"?

Read that sentence a few times.  I never saw anyone named Joffrey in the show to whom I would subscribe those ideas to.  Joffrey has no sentiment and also no "valor" to do what needs to be done.  He left his troops at the Blackwater battle and made sport of torturing little girls.

Is THIS the person who stole a Valyrian blade, and hired an assassin to kill Bran?  Would Joffrey (such a young person anyway) KNOW how to find and hire an assassin?

All for "MERCY" for Bran?

Something is Wrong.

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31 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

But does this sound like Joffrey to ANYONE reading the post?

Joffrey not letting "sentiment get in the way" to "do what needed to be done"?

Read that sentence a few times.  I never saw anyone named Joffrey in the show to whom I would subscribe those ideas to.  Joffrey has no sentiment and also no "valor" to do what needs to be done.  He left his troops at the Blackwater battle and made sport of torturing little girls.

Is THIS the person who stole a Valyrian blade, and hired an assassin to kill Bran?  Would Joffrey (such a young person anyway) KNOW how to find and hire an assassin?

All for "MERCY" for Bran?

Something is Wrong.

Of course Joffrey has no sentiment. And he thinks that's what makes him strong. Which is exactly what he wants to prove to Robert.

Of course it doesn't actually make him strong, and he's actually a sniveling little coward, but he doesn't have enough self-awareness to realize that. Robert, on the other hand, can sense it easily, just like everyone else can—which is exactly why Joffrey feels the need to prove himself to Robert.

And again, while his twisted brain might well take a murder as mercy, that isn't relevant here, because he wasn't motivated by mercy, he was motivated by proving himself to Robert.

Seriously, do you think Joffrey sees himself as a weak little bully and wannabe mustache-twirler? Nobody thinks of themselves that way.*

And finally, as I asked before, what would be the point of changing the story from the books to make it Cersei instead of Joffrey? How does that add anything significant to her crimes to any relevant character, or to any viewer? Can you imagine anyone saying, "I was on Team Cersei, but not anymore, now that I found out that 6 years ago, after she laughed about her brother-lover trying to kill Bran by throwing him out a window, she also hired an assassin to kill him"?

 

* Well, maybe some of the characters in absurdist dark comedies by people like Robert Shearman, but nobody who's meant to be a real human character.

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Like Tyrion said, you gotta be a special kimd of stupid to hand an assassin your own dagger. Only Joff could be that stupid IMO.

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