Iron Mother

The Dagger Revealed?

33 posts in this topic

25 minutes ago, falcotron said:

And finally, as I asked before, what would be the point of changing the story from the books to make it Cersei instead of Joffrey? How does that add anything significant to her crimes to any relevant character, or to any viewer? Can you imagine anyone saying, "I was on Team Cersei, but not anymore, now that I found out that 6 years ago, after she laughed about her brother-lover trying to kill Bran by throwing him out a window, she also hired an assassin to kill him"?

So, he did this to prove something to Robert and never told him?

They have changed MUCH from the books.  If they hadn't, Dorne would be attacking King's Landing right now instead of the show having them weeping in the sand for Oberyn and being subdued by the failure of the "leader" Ellaria Sand.  I could name 10 things immediately that deviate from the books.

All I said was, there were extremely limited people to have access to the dagger IF it was in fact in Robert's possession.  Out of the people with access, I would choose Cersei over any of the others.  And what makes anyone think Jaime had access to it?  JUST because he was  a Kingsguard?  Talking familial relations to be able to swipe something like an ancient valyerian dagger.  Not just some maester pycell that wandered in to give Robert milk of the poppy.

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30 minutes ago, DirePenguin said:

Like Tyrion said, you gotta be a special kimd of stupid to hand an assassin your own dagger. Only Joff could be that stupid IMO.

But, Cersie does hate Tyrion, so she may have wanted to kill two birds with one stone.

Also, Waif Arya may sound like fan fiction but it makes more sense than show Arya currently does :D

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26 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

So, he did this to prove something to Robert and never told him?

Presumably either he didn't get a chance to tell Robert before he died, or he did tell Robert, and Robert called him a fool and ordered him never to breathe a word of it to anyone else.

I don't know why you're acting incredulous, like this is a ridiculously implausible idea. This is exactly what happened in the books, and all of the relevant setup is pretty much identical in the show.

26 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

They have changed MUCH from the books.  If they hadn't, Dorne would be attacking King's Landing right now instead of the show having them weeping in the sand for Oberyn and being subdued by the failure of the "leader" Ellaria Sand.  I could name 10 things immediately that deviate from the books.

Sure, but they change things for reasons.

For example, with Dorne: Cutting fAegon out to simplify the story means they had to merge the fAegon-Lannister and Dany-fAegon wars. This led to a whole bunch of other changes. Further, deciding to leave Dorne in the background after S4 led to cutting a bunch of characters, and then changing their minds and deciding to do a Dornish story because they were so impressed with Indira Varna meant they had to write a whole new story with the characters they had left, leading to a whole bunch of other changes.

Many of these changes were done for reasons that are pretty dumb in retrospect (e.g., "Dorne is a family story about Doran and Arianne, but we already cut Arianne, so we'll make it a family story about Jaime and Myrcella"), but none of them were for no reason at all.

So, what reason do you see—even a dumb one—for deciding to make Cersei rather than Joffrey the culprit behind the dagger theft and assassination attempt? What do you think they—mistakenly or otherwise—thought it would add?

26 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

All I said was, there were extremely limited people to have access to the dagger IF it was in fact in Robert's possession.

Sure, but Joffrey is one of those people. And he's the one who did it in the books.

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6 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Presumably either he didn't get a chance to tell Robert before he died, or he did tell Robert, and Robert called him a fool and ordered him never to breathe a word of it to anyone else.

I don't know why you're acting incredulous, like this is a ridiculously implausible idea. This is exactly what happened in the books, and all of the relevant setup is pretty much identical in the show.

So, what reason do you see—even a dumb one—for deciding to make Cersei rather than Joffrey the culprit behind the dagger theft and assassination attempt? What do you think they—mistakenly or otherwise—thought it would add?

Sure, but Joffrey is one of those people. And he's the one who did it in the books.

1) So, PRESUMABLY.  hmmm

2) it's incredulous because you have not provided anything other than speculation.

BTW I wonder what will happen to all of you if/when fAgeon turns out to be real in the books :D

3) The reason I see for Cersei rather than Joffrey is CERSEI WAS SEEN BY BRAN FUCKING JAIME.  Be an investigator.  Opportunity and motive are the powerful aspects to ascertain a suspect. 

4) He didn't "do it" in the books, you are drawing conclusions from the books (which can be overridden by the show for a new plot) from inner monologues of others SUGGESTING or THINKING Joffrey did it.  Then you back THAT up by saying "well he "probably" told Robert who "probably" thrashed him for it who "probably" told him to never speak of it again.

LOT OF ASSUMPTIONS THERE.

 

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10 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

1) So, PRESUMABLY.  hmmm

2) it's incredulous because you have not provided anything other than speculation.

BTW I wonder what will happen to all of you if/when fAgeon turns out to be real in the books :D

3) The reason I see for Cersei rather than Joffrey is CERSEI WAS SEEN BY BRAN FUCKING JAIME.  Be an investigator.  Opportunity and motive are the powerful aspects to ascertain a suspect. 

4) He didn't "do it" in the books, you are drawing conclusions from the books (which can be overridden by the show for a new plot) from inner monologues of others SUGGESTING or THINKING Joffrey did it.  Then you back THAT up by saying "well he "probably" told Robert who "probably" thrashed him for it who "probably" told him to never speak of it again.

LOT OF ASSUMPTIONS THERE.

 

Shouting in all caps doesn't make your points any better.

1. Yes, presumably. When you know something happened, and you don't know one of the details, but there are obvious possibilities for that detail, presumably it was one of those possibilities. The fact that you don't know one of the details isn't an argument against the main concept unless there are no obvious possibilities.

2. I have provided a lot more than speculation. I've provided what happened in the books. And you're acting like what happened in the books couldn't possibly have happened.

3. Sure, Cersei has a motive. So does Joffrey.

4. In the books, Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion all come to the conclusion that Joffrey did it. And we know for a fact that none of them did it (unless they've somehow got amnesia), because we get all of their internal monologues. And there's nothing anywhere to raise the possibility of some other culprit, or to cast doubt on Joffrey having done it. This is a lot more than we have for all kinds of other things that everyone universally agrees on. For example, the only way we know that the reason Robb married Jeyne Westerling was to protect her honor after sleeping with her is that we see one character, Cat, guessing it. Even if there was a love potion or something else involved in making him fall for Jeyne and sleep with her, I'm pretty sure Cat is still right that he married her the next morning to protect her honor, because Cat knows her son pretty well, and it fits with what we know about the character, and there's no compelling reason in the story to doubt it.

Finally, I'm not backing it up by saying he probably told Robert and so on. I don't need to back it up any more than the books already do. You're raising a silly challenge to the facts in the book by claiming there's no possible way to explain why we didn't see him tell Robert, and I'm answering that there are multiple possible ways to explain it, so that's no challenge.

If you claimed that Robert couldn't have gone through the Riverlands on his way to Winterfell because we don't know what route he took through the Riverlands, I'd answer that presumably he took the Kingsroad. I don't know for a fact that he took the Kingsroad, but I know there are obvious ways he could have gone through the Riverlands, so there's no reason to doubt that he went through the Riverlands, and you're just being silly.

If you claim that Joffrey couldn't have killed Bran to impress Robert because we didn't see him tell Robert about it. I answer that maybe he did tell Robert and we didn't see it, or maybe he didn't get a chance to tell Robert because it wasn't that long after that Robert died. I don't know for a fact that one of those two is true, but I know there are obvious ways we could have not seen him tell Robert about it, so there's no reason to doubt that he did it, and you're just being silly.

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21 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Shouting in all caps doesn't make your points any better.

I'm reclaiming capital letters as EMPHASIS.  If you or others would actually read the sentence you would see there is no reason anyone would shout the word EMPHASIS.  I don't "shout".  I don't come here to fight.  I enjoy places on the Internet where I go to interact.  I'm no troll.

Capital letters and using them - I have no idea how that came to mean shouting in the first place - but I am a writer and I use various ways to create emphasis on certain words that have nothing to do with SHOUTING or SCREAMING or trying to start vapid arguments.

If I wanted to scream ← does that really mean I screamed?

This is me:D always on here.  So, keep that in mind.  And try to get some rest.  I have insomnia, what's your excuse? :P

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Shouting in all caps doesn't make your points any better.

1. Yes, presumably. When you know something happened, and you don't know one of the details, but there are obvious possibilities for that detail, presumably it was one of those possibilities. The fact that you don't know one of the details isn't an argument against the main concept unless there are no obvious possibilities.

2. I have provided a lot more than speculation. I've provided what happened in the books. And you're acting like what happened in the books couldn't possibly have happened.

3. Sure, Cersei has a motive. So does Joffrey.

4. In the books, Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion all come to the conclusion that Joffrey did it. And we know for a fact that none of them did it (unless they've somehow got amnesia), because we get all of their internal monologues. And there's nothing anywhere to raise the possibility of some other culprit, or to cast doubt on Joffrey having done it. This is a lot more than we have for all kinds of other things that everyone universally agrees on. For example, the only way we know that the reason Robb married Jeyne Westerling was to protect her honor after sleeping with her is that we see one character, Cat, guessing it. Even if there was a love potion or something else involved in making him fall for Jeyne and sleep with her, I'm pretty sure Cat is still right that he married her the next morning to protect her honor, because Cat knows her son pretty well, and it fits with what we know about the character, and there's no compelling reason in the story to doubt it.

Finally, I'm not backing it up by saying he probably told Robert and so on. I don't need to back it up any more than the books already do. You're raising a silly challenge to the facts in the book by claiming there's no possible way to explain why we didn't see him tell Robert, and I'm answering that there are multiple possible ways to explain it, so that's no challenge.

If you claimed that Robert couldn't have gone through the Riverlands on his way to Winterfell because we don't know what route he took through the Riverlands, I'd answer that presumably he took the Kingsroad. I don't know for a fact that he took the Kingsroad, but I know there are obvious ways he could have gone through the Riverlands, so there's no reason to doubt that he went through the Riverlands, and you're just being silly.

If you claim that Joffrey couldn't have killed Bran to impress Robert because we didn't see him tell Robert about it. I answer that maybe he did tell Robert and we didn't see it, or maybe he didn't get a chance to tell Robert because it wasn't that long after that Robert died. I don't know for a fact that one of those two is true, but I know there are obvious ways we could have not seen him tell Robert about it, so there's no reason to doubt that he did it, and you're just being silly.

All the arguments you make concerning the dagger are

- relying on the books when we have seen countless times  the show changed things
- making assumptions about way too many things.  You create this path of Joffrey doing it then the reason for him doing it (impress father) is nowhere to be seen or hinted upon or ever mentioned again
- you assume book Cersei didn't lie
- you overlook Cersei had an actual motive that makes sense (and one that could bring about her own death if Bran talks) rather than an assumed Joffrey motive that doesn't make too much sense at all
- every assumption you make comes directly from the books when the books and the show have been two different entities for a while now

I won't even get into the minutia anymore.  I have no idea IF (← screaming wildly the word IF because it's such a forceful and harsh 2 letter word) Cersei did the hit on Bran.  I have a feeling the show will do something entirely different than either Joffrey OR (← screaming loudly) Cersei with the dagger.

Have A nice morning.  Totally shouting the letter A in that sentence is absurd.  Capital letters must be reclaimed from the text genre.  People actually still write.

y ru lkng 4 a fyt? u shd chyl mor

Edited by Iron Mother

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

So, he did this to prove something to Robert and never told him?

They have changed MUCH from the books.  If they hadn't, Dorne would be attacking King's Landing right now instead of the show having them weeping in the sand for Oberyn and being subdued by the failure of the "leader" Ellaria Sand.  I could name 10 things immediately that deviate from the books.

All I said was, there were extremely limited people to have access to the dagger IF it was in fact in Robert's possession.  Out of the people with access, I would choose Cersei over any of the others.  And what makes anyone think Jaime had access to it?  JUST because he was  a Kingsguard?  Talking familial relations to be able to swipe something like an ancient valyerian dagger.  Not just some maester pycell that wandered in to give Robert milk of the poppy.

This, I think its made pretty clear it was cersei who handed the catspaw the dagger to kill Bran with. In season 1 episode 2 cersei says ''there is no mercy letting a child linger in such pain'' also the fact he knew about Jaime and Cersei's incestuous relationship. It makes so much perfect sense that Cersei was the one to initiate the assassination of Bran, maybe Cersei told Jaime her plan whos knows. 

It was definitely in Roberts possession, he took it from Prince Rhaegars body after defeating him at the Trident.  Thus Cersei was able to take the dagger from roberts possession and give it to the catspaw. 

Edited by Samwell_Tarly

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Posted (edited)

On 18.08.2017 at 4:22 AM, Iron Mother said:

The Valyrian steel dagger belonged to House Targaryen and was owned by Rhaegar.  It was taken by Robert as a spoil of war.  Taken not by Joffrey but by Cersei to send the assassin to silence Bran for what he saw. 

Littlefinger probably didn't even know much about the dagger and took advantage to create strife between Stark and Lannister by telling Catelyn it was Tyrion's through him via a bet against Jaime (which doesn't make sense through several characters' POVs).

For whatever reason it will tie into the Rhaegar reveal through Bran's Sight/knowledge.

What saieth the community?

Well, in the books we know that Robert won it from Littlefinger in a bet. This is also confirmed in The World of Ice and Fire.

You can read more about it here : http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_steel_dagger#cite_note-Racok55.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-2

Neither Jaime nor Cersei are responsible in the novels, we know this from their internal thoughts, and obviously Tyrion isn't either. The conclusion that all three Lannister siblings come to separately is that Joffrey did it to impress Robert.

He heard him saying it would be the merciful thing to do. Obviously Joff doesn't care about being merciful, he just wanted to make Robert think his son had done "the right thing", the difficult but correct decision, etc... Joff just wants his dad to think highly of him.

Furthermore, Joff is the only person stupid enough to give an expensive Valyrian steel and dragon bone dagger to a lowly assassin. Littlefinger certainly wouldn't do that. It's idiotic.

So in the books the issue is clearly settled to me. We know for a fact that none of the Lannisters did it, we know for a fact that the dagger belonged to Robert and was with him at Winterfell (meaning Littlefinger can't be the one who did it), and we know for a fact that Joffrey is an idiot. Joffrey did it.

As for the show, there are several arguments against Littlefinger being responsible. First of all, as I said, it would be incredibly dumb to arm an assassin with your own expensive blade. Second, it would mean that somehow, between Episodes 1 and 2 of the show, Littlefinger learned of Bran's fall, and sent an assassin all the way to Winterfell. Third, there's no real motive.

Why would LF attempt to kill one of Catelyn's children ? There are a million other ways to create tension between the Starks and the Lannisters, and there's no way he could have known that Catelyn would come to King's Landing. There is also no way he could have known that Catelyn would find blonde hair in the tower, and assume Lannister involvment in both attempts on Bran's life.

Finally, the assassin tries to kill Catelyn as well, and there's no way Littlefinger would deliberately endanger her. Sending an assassin to kill her child is already putting her in grave danger, even if he tells the guy not to harm her, because it's obvious she'll fight to the death to protect her child.

Basically, if the show makes it Littlefinger, it'll be utter nonsense.

They could go with Cersei, but that would seem a bit contradictory to the fact that in Season 1 Episode 3 she lectures Jaime about the stupidity of trying to kill Bran.

Edited by NickStark2494

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7 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

It has to be Cersei.  Joffrey hearing Robert say "it would be merciful if he had died than to live as a cripple" and then Joffrey dishing out "mercy" to Bran?  REALLY?  Joffrey and mercy do not go well together.

The show is beyond the books we  all know that.  The ONLY person who had access and motive to use the dagger that way is Cersei.  I don't see Jaime doing it.  The only other person who had access to Robert's dagger is Joffrey and I don't see him dispensing mercy on ANYONE let alone some random Stark boy.

The idea is not about "mercy," or that Joffrey wanted to dispense "mercy."

The idea is that Joffrey, who didn't get much (if any) attention from Robert growing up, wanted to do something to raise his esteem in Robert's eyes, and/or, like I basically said, perhaps just b/c Joffrey himself wanted to indulge a sadistic whim, and this was an "excuse" for him to do so.

In any event, as I said, my understanding is that in the books it's clear Joffrey was responsible (and I THINK we know for a fact it wasn't Cersei, from her own internal monologue POV).  It's true the show is now past the books, but this material we are discussing is from years ago, before the show went beyond the books.

As far as "access" to the dagger goes, I think it is safe to assume that Joffrey had easy access to it (maybe not as much easy access as Cersei, since she was Robert's wife, but still, easy access as the prince)

PERHAPS D&D will decide to make this a change from the books with a big reveal that it was Cersei, but so far, of course, we have not seen that in the show.

 

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Does anyone have any info on where the dagger actually came from? I mean originally? It was drawn and analyzed in the tome that Sam was reading so it's definitely important but how and why? Anybody know anything?

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On 8/20/2017 at 7:15 AM, NickStark2494 said:

Basically, if the show makes it Littlefinger, it'll be utter nonsense.

So it's settled then. The show will make it Littlefinger.

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7 hours ago, Bran's Tourney said:

So it's settled then. The show will make it Littlefinger.

Haha, good point.

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