KingMance

The blue eyed king who casts no shadow

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In Dany's HOTU visions, she sees a "blue eyed king who casts no shadow" with a red sword glowing like sunset. Most readers agree this is Stannis. I get it, he checks all the boxes, except (in my mind) casting no shadow. 

We get a few prominent characters associated with shadows, most notably Jon, Tyrion, and Stannis. When Davos rows Mel underneath Dragonstone to slay Penrose with a shadow baby, the chapter ends with him saying he knew that shadow, as he knew the man who cast it.

So, does this tie in with Dany being a slayer of lies, with one of the lies being that Stannis casts no shadow? Could it mean that the vision isn't of Stannis (unlikely IMO)? Or am I misremembering or totally delusional?

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Maybe it's because his shadow is off killing his own brother. He needs to pull a Peter Pan and sew that shadow back to his feet.

But seriously, shadows have been used to describe or foreshadow (see what I did there?) the influence or impact that an individual will have on the world around them (think back to Jon's description of Tyrion's shadow in Winterfell). In this context, "casts no shadow" is quite possibly an indication that the individual will not be successful or will not have the impact they hope to. This perfectly fits Stannis, a man who believes himself to be a legendary savior but actually is not.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Red Man Racey said:

Maybe it's because his shadow is off killing his own brother. He needs to pull a Peter Pan and sew that shadow back to his feet.

But seriously, shadows have been used to describe or foreshadow (see what I did there?) the influence or impact that an individual will have on the world around them (think back to Jon's description of Tyrion's shadow in Winterfell). In this context, "casts no shadow" is quite possibly an indication that the individual will not be successful or will not have the impact they hope to. This perfectly fits Stannis, a man who believes himself to be a legendary savior but actually is not.

Possibly, although Stannis casts a shadow on the Wall:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

But most came on. Behind them was only cold and death. Ahead was hope. They came on, clutching their scraps of wood until the time came to feed them to the flames. R'hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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The lie is that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn.  The casts no shadow is simply a reference to him being drained by Mels 2 shadow babies.  Although we could all certainly be wrong, the WW's do indeed have blue eyes.

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The lie is that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn.  The casts no shadow is simply a reference to him being drained by Mels 2 shadow babies.  Although we could all certainly be wrong, the WW's do indeed have blue eyes.

That was always my thinking as well.  Except that he does cast a shadow and gigantic one on the Wall beside Mel.  There are some interesting quotes about casting a shadow in the text:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

Tyrion glanced down and saw the Hound standing with young Joffrey as squires swarmed around them. "At least he dies quietly," the prince replied. "It's the wolf that makes the noise. I could scarce sleep last night."

Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered the black helm over his head. "I could silence the creature, if it please you," he said through his open visor. His boy placed a longsword in his hand. He tested the weight of it, slicing at the cold morning air. Behind him, the yard rang to the clangor of steel on steel.

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

"Or you might have joined your strength to his to bring down the Lannisters," Davos protested. "Why not that? If she saw two futures, well . . . both cannot be true."

King Stannis pointed a finger. "There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you'll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that's all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all."

A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

"He said that he was tired." He knows, Cersei had said, as they stood above their father's corpse. He knows about us.

"Tired?" His aunt pursed her lips. "I suppose he has a right to be. It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

"Shadows." The world seemed darker when he said it.

"Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."

 

Some shadows have consequence according to the one who casts them and whether they are long or short, weak or dark.  The grave casts long shadows and so does Sandor Clegane.  Mel and Stannis cast a gigantic shadow on the Wall.  Tyrion casts the shadow of king onto Winterfell itself.  Melisandre asks Jon to look behind and see his own shadow; while Dany will not look back at her own shadow in the House of Undying... at the darkness cast behind her.

There is also the notion of being touched by the shadow:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord," Mirri said. "Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back."

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. "The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah," she told him. The knight made no reply. Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.

 

Dany, who is told by Quaithe of the Shadow; that she must pass beneath the shadow to touch the light.  So I think there is probably more to this than Mel draining Stannis' life force.

Edited by LynnS

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The only literal circumstances in which something does not cast a shadow are 1) if it is itself the the source of light and 2) if there's no light in the first place. Relating this to astronomy - because that's part of the mythological subtext - those would be Sun and the Night. 

I hadn't thought much about this being about anyone but Stannis, but it does kinda conflict with other descriptions of him, especially the one where he literally casts a shadow on the Wall. Not only showing his and Mel's relative smallness compared to R'hllor and the Wall, but the tremendous impact Stannis has when he allows the wildlings come south. The shadow assassins could also be described as having been cast, though it's Mel casting Stannis's shadow in that case. And even Brienne knows that shadow was Stannis.

So I guess we could say the Stannis conclusion isn't really borne out by his actual relationship with shadows. He casts a ton of shadows. The gleaming, red sword seems like a match, sure, but we already know that this is glamor, not actual Lightbringer. And Stannis' kingship is by claim only, not by declaration or by having "kingsblood". Would such a vision represent things that are false? The blues eyes are the only part that unambiguously match Stannis, and that's not a terribly convincing connection all by itself. 
 

If this isn't Stannis Caster of Shadows and Wielder of Fake Lightbringer, then who is it? The most sensible option is the actual person this is meant to represent: Azor Ahai reborn. 

I mean it's still probably Stannis, but the inconsistency certainly makes me wonder.

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Stannis is the shadowless blue-eyed king with the glowing sword there. It cannot be more precise that that. If you don't buy that you could just as well want the cloth dragon to be an actual literal cloth dragon. I don't expect to see one of those actually being cheered by crowd, no?

The king lacking a shadow isn't meant to be literal but rather point towards the fact that Stannis uses his life force to create shadow demons looking like himself to kill people.

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I mean it's still probably Stannis, but the inconsistency certainly makes me wonder.

Me too.  Jon sees both Stannis and Melisandre's shadows together on the Wall and I wonder if this foreshadows the fall of Wall  or at least the wards.  The whole business of Stannis taking up residence in the Night Fort seems ominous.

A blue-eyed king with a red sword casting no shadow could mean that the vision takes place at night when wights are up and about.

At the moment, Stannis' is all glamor.  I suppose it's entirely possible that Mel will raise him as a fire wight at some point.

I'm not so sure about the business that drawing Stannis' shadow drains him of his shadow.  I think Mel is drawing too much of his blood for the purposes of her sorcery and casting a shadow requires a high price.  

I suppose the question is why it's significant to show Dany a vision of Stannis.

Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Me too.  Jon sees both Stannis and Melisandre's shadows together on the Wall and I wonder if this foreshadows the fall of Wall  or at least the wards.  The whole business of Stannis taking up residence in the Night Fort seems ominous.

A blue-eyed king with a red sword casting no shadow could mean that the vision takes place at night when wights are up and about.

At the moment, Stannis' is all glamor.  I suppose it's entirely possible that Mel will raise him as a fire wight at some point.

I'm not so sure about the business that drawing Stannis' shadow drains him of his shadow.  I think Mel is drawing too much of his blood for the purposes of her sorcery and casting a shadow requires a high price.  

I suppose the question is why it's significant to show Dany a vision of Stannis.

Yeah, it doesn't quite add up. If it's a vision of the real Azor Ahai, then Stannis is probably our last choice. We know he's a fake, and his role in the books seems to be more of an exposition on the original AA's arc, including the widely speculated transformation from gleaming hero to leader of death's army. If the books are about "breaking the wheel" or "destroying the Ring" once and for all, then I don't think our actual hero will go on to the tragic, evil part of original AA's story.

There's all manner of guessing about Jon's condition upon resurrection, but I certainly think it's possible he'll end up with combined qualities of Beric and Coldhands. In other words, he may well wake up with blue eyes, having passed through cold death, and the ability to light his sword on fire, having been resurrected. If Ghost, Mel, or Val have to be sacrificed to bring Jon back and they use Longclaw, that would probably seal the symbolic deal on who is real AA.

So if we do rule out Stannis as the person in the vision, then my next guess would be resurrected Jon.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, cgrav said:


So if we do rule out Stannis as the person in the vision, then my next guess would be resurrected Jon.

No, not at all.  What is connection between Dany and Stannis?  Stannis casts no shadow (in the night) and Dany will not look behind at her own shadow... the darkness that follows in her wake.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

GRRM explicitly refers to Stannis as the 'blue-eyed king' here:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"Jon." Melisandre was so close he could feel the warmth of her breath. "R'hllor is the only true god. A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes. Open your heart and let the light of the Lord come in. Burn these weirwoods, and accept Winterfell as a gift of the Lord of Light."

When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there's only me. All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do . . .

. . . was forswear his vows again.

And this time it would not be a ruse. To claim his father's castle, he must turn against his father's gods.

The blue-eyed king has been corrupted by the red woman, who is the red hawk, or red sword -- the sword without a hilt Stannis has thrown his lot in with.  The reason he no longer casts a shadow is that all his light has been stolen from him by the red woman who is a shadowbinder; in other words, she used Stannis's light to create the shadow assassin; it's also the reason she glowed in the dark.  'The Lord of Light' is not made of light but feeds off the light of others like a parasite -- perhaps one of the lies that needs to be slain.  In the scene quoted above, she attempts to do the same to Jon, tempting him with the gift of a title and Winterfell he's always craved.  Were it not for Ghost, she might have succeeded, and Jon like Stannis would also have been drained of his light and morally shrunken.  

Depleted of his life force, Stannis no longer casts shadows -- instead, one might say he has become a shadow of his former self:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

Stannis wore a grey wool tunic, a dark red mantle, and a plain black leather belt from which his sword and dagger hung. A red-gold crown with flame-shaped points encircled his brows. The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm's End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king's close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now the bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face.

 

Alternatively:

  • Bran has blue eyes...make of that what you will!
  • I like @chrisdaw's brilliant idea of the ice dragon with a blue eye and translucent wings who casts no shadow.

 

9 hours ago, cgrav said:

The only literal circumstances in which something does not cast a shadow are 1) if it is itself the the source of light and 2) if there's no light in the first place. Relating this to astronomy - because that's part of the mythological subtext - those would be Sun and the Night. 

A third possibility would be the 'dark sun' or Azor Ahai corrupted. The instant Azor Ahai was willing to kill his wife Nissa Nissa for power, he becomes corrupted and turns dark.   A dark sun has no light with which to cast further shadows.  By killing his brother, Stannis turned dark.

Edited by ravenous reader

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On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 8:11 PM, KingMance said:

Most readers agree this is Stannis. I get it, he checks all the boxes, except (in my mind) casting no shadow. 

shadows are fairly consistently used, in a mythic context, to mean the psychic projection of an individual or of a gestalt. Melisandre has, by her own admission, used up Stannis' psychic reserves. He has no shadow remaining in the mythic sense of the word.

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Thanks for all the great answers guys. @ravenous reader @cgrav that's probably the best explanation I've heard on the subject. Just one of the several ASOIAF thoughts that cross my mind daily. 

@Lord VarysI did state it was unlikely to be anyone but Stannis in my first post, but I appreciate your snark as always! (Truly, I love your back and forth with various board members. It's entertaining.) :cheers:

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Yeah, I think it is Stannis.

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18 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

GRRM explicitly refers to Stannis as the 'blue-eyed king' here:

The blue-eyed king has been corrupted by the red woman, who is the red hawk, or red sword -- the sword without a hilt Stannis has thrown his lot in with.  The reason he no longer casts a shadow is that all his light has been stolen from him by the red woman who is a shadowbinder; in other words, she used Stannis's light to create the shadow assassin; it's also the reason she glowed in the dark.  'The Lord of Light' is not made of light but feeds off the light of others like a parasite -- perhaps one of the lies that needs to be slain.  In the scene quoted above, she attempts to do the same to Jon, tempting him with the gift of a title and Winterfell he's always craved.  Were it not for Ghost, she might have succeeded, and Jon like Stannis would also have been drained of his light and morally shrunken.  

Depleted of his life force, Stannis no longer casts shadows -- instead, one might say he has become a shadow of his former self:

 

Alternatively:

  • Bran has blue eyes...make of that what you will!
  • I like @chrisdaw's brilliant idea of the ice dragon with a blue eye and translucent wings who casts no shadow.

 

A third possibility would be the 'dark sun' or Azor Ahai corrupted. The instant Azor Ahai was willing to kill his wife Nissa Nissa for power, he becomes corrupted and turns dark.   A dark sun has no light with which to cast further shadows.  By killing his brother, Stannis turned dark.

Poor Stannis, he gets no love.  He's always a false messiah, a placeholder for Dany or Jon.  Yet I get the feeling that George is fairly fond of the character, and is even giving him a bit of a story arc.  I mean this is the only blue eyed king who has literally been casting pretty vicious shadows.  Perhaps he has a few more in him?

I wouldn't discount Bran too quickly.  He is also a blue eyed king, but as LynnS has pointed out before, he certainly has become (will become?) a blue eyed king who casts no shadow, because he is living in a dark cave.  

Quote

“Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.”

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.”

And as Melisandre reminds us, there are no shadows in the dark:

Quote

“You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows.”

and then there is this:

Quote

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”
“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it.
Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. ”

And of course Bran is a boy who cannot walk.

Quote

"You will never walk again, Bran," the pale lips promised, "but you will fly."

 

And there is one more alternative, after all the vision shows a blue-eyed king, not a king with blue eyes.

Quote

He looks unchanged, Victarion thought.  He looks the same as he did the day he laughed at me and left.  Euron was the most comely of Lord Quelon's sons, and three years of exile had not changed that.  His hair was still black as a midnight sea, with never a whitecap to be seen, and his face was still smooth and pale beneath his neat dark beard.  A black leather patch covered Euron's left eye, but his right was blue as a summer's sky.

His smiling eye, thought Victarion.  "Crow's Eye," he said.

"King Crow's Eye, brother."  Euron smiled.  His lips looked very dark in the lamplight, bruised and blue.

And we know that Euron has trafficked in Warlocks and Shade of the Evening:

Quote

“I mean to open your eyes.” Euron drank deep from his own cup, and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks. I came upon a cask of it when I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale. One presumed to threaten me, so I killed him and fed him to the other three. They refused to eat of their friend’s flesh at first, but when they grew hungry enough they had a change of heart. Men are meat.”

And Warlocks are known to drink shadows:

Quote

“Heed the wisdom of those who love you best,” said Xaro Xhoan Daxos, lounging inside the palanquin. “Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows.  They will give you naught.  They have naught to give."

Perhaps they were drinking Dany's shadow in the House of the Undying:

Quote

“The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting …”

Perhaps they have already drunk of Euron's shadow.

The vision of the blue eyed king comes after Dany's title of ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies ...

And Euron and the symbols surrounding Euron are certainly associated with lies.

Quote

“The merchant prince sat up sharply. “Pyat Pree has blue lips, and it is truly said that blue lips speak only lies. Heed the wisdom of one who loves you. Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give.”

Quote

Crows are all liars,” Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. “I know a story about a crow.”

And while Stannis' red sword may be Melisandre, perhaps Euron's red sword is Victarion:

Quote

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

compare to Victarion's new personae:

Quote

“Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand

And if Dany's visions are events that will occur within her story arc.  It appears that it is much more likely that Dany will encounter Euron than either Stannis or Bran.

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This is one of those passages that it's best not to overthink.  The blue eyed king who casts no shadow is 100% Stannis and he casts no shadow because Mel has sucked the shadow out of him.  

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Poor Stannis, he gets no love.  He's always a false messiah, a placeholder for Dany or Jon.  Yet I get the feeling that George is fairly fond of the character, and is even giving him a bit of a story arc.  I mean this is the only blue eyed king who has literally been casting pretty vicious shadows.  Perhaps he has a few more in him?

I wouldn't discount Bran too quickly.  He is also a blue eyed king, but as LynnS has pointed out before, he certainly has become (will become?) a blue eyed king who casts no shadow, because he is living in a dark cave.  

Quote

“Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.”

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.”

And as Melisandre reminds us, there are no shadows in the dark:

Quote

“You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows.”

Yes, that is a good point.  However, Bran himself -- the quintessential 'sweet summer child' with 'Summer wolf' and 'kissed-by-fire' red hair is configured as a sun.  He is the sun/son of Winterfell spirited away and now held captive by the singers underground in the cavern with the 'sunless sea' -- although Bran himself represents the sun in that sunless sea!

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

"Snow." An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. "Snow!" His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. "Snow, snow, snow!" He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

The other greenseer held captive in the cavern is also fire-associated, namely Bloodraven with his singular red eye like the last glowing coal in a dying fire (he's even bound and pinioned by the weirwood roots, underscoring the nefarious aspect of what is happening).

Basically, the cave is dark vs. the greenseers who are fire, like Ariel (meaning 'lion of god' or 'hearth fire of god') held captive in the tree by the witch in Shakespeare's 'The Tempest'.  

Quote

and then there is this:

Quote

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”
“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it.
Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. ”

And of course Bran is a boy who cannot walk.

Quote

"You will never walk again, Bran," the pale lips promised, "but you will fly."

Yes, very true.  But if Bran skinchanges a dragon he might be able to cast a shadow.  I believe Drogon will be wighted and that Bran will skinchange him (can wights cast shadows?)

On the other hand, perhaps skinchanging is a way of being a king without casting a shadow personally (although the skinchanger's 'host' might cast a shadow).  Recall that when Varamyr sets eyes on Ghost, he refers to the direwolf as 'a second life fit for a king.'

Quote

And there is one more alternative, after all the vision shows a blue-eyed king , not a king with blue eyes.

 

Yes, precisely what I was thinking!  A one-eyed king works just as well, as we saw prefigured by the one-(blue-)eyed wighted Waymar in the Prologue.

Quote

 

Quote

He looks unchanged, Victarion thought.  He looks the same as he did the day he laughed at me and left.  Euron was the most comely of Lord Quelon's sons, and three years of exile had not changed that.  His hair was still black as a midnight sea, with never a whitecap to be seen, and his face was still smooth and pale beneath his neat dark beard.  A black leather patch covered Euron's left eye, but his right was blue as a summer's sky.

His smiling eye, thought Victarion.  "Crow's Eye," he said.

"King Crow's Eye, brother."  Euron smiled.  His lips looked very dark in the lamplight, bruised and blue.

And we know that Euron has trafficked in Warlocks and Shade of the Evening:

Quote

“I mean to open your eyes.” Euron drank deep from his own cup, and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks. I came upon a cask of it when I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale. One presumed to threaten me, so I killed him and fed him to the other three. They refused to eat of their friend’s flesh at first, but when they grew hungry enough they had a change of heart. Men are meat.”

And Warlocks are known to drink shadows:

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“Heed the wisdom of those who love you best,” said Xaro Xhoan Daxos, lounging inside the palanquin. “Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows.  They will give you naught.  They have naught to give."

Perhaps they were drinking Dany's shadow in the House of the Undying:

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“The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting …”

Perhaps they have already drunk of Euron's shadow.

Euron is a definite contender for the blue-eyed king!

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The vision of the blue eyed king comes after Dany's title of ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies ...

 

That triplet -- of the blue-eyed king with the red sword, the cloth dragon on poles, and the stone beast breathing shadow fire -- signifies 3 lies to be slain.

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And Euron and the symbols surrounding Euron are certainly associated with lies.

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“The merchant prince sat up sharply. “Pyat Pree has blue lips, and it is truly said that blue lips speak only lies. Heed the wisdom of one who loves you. Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give.”

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Crows are all liars,” Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. “I know a story about a crow.”

And while Stannis' red sword may be Melisandre, perhaps Euron's red sword is Victarion:

 

Oh, I like that.  Lightbringer is a person wielded by another, rather than an actual sword.

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

compare to Victarion's new personae:

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“Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand

And if Dany's visions are events that will occur within her story arc.  It appears that it is much more likely that Dany will encounter Euron than either Stannis or Bran.

What or who do you think the third member of the triplet of lies -- the shadow fire beast taking off from the tower -- is?  And, more importantly, what is 'shadow fire' anyway?!

1 hour ago, acwill07 said:

This is one of those passages that it's best not to overthink.  The blue eyed king who casts no shadow is 100% Stannis and he casts no shadow because Mel has sucked the shadow out of him.  

Actually, she's sucked the light out of him, not the shadow.  Think of Stannis as the sun with Melisandre as the moon standing in eclipse conjunction to him.  Technically, the moon's shadow is cast by the sun, together with the moon stealing the sun's fire.  As I said above, the lord of light is not made of light, but steals the light of others.

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Posted (edited)

@ravenous reader, you might like this.  By the way I love your new profile pic.  

 

Has anyone else read Zeus's Wikipedia page?  There are different versions of him everywhere you go.  One is Zeus Lykaios. There are different interpretations of what that particular epithet means.  One is wolf.  I think that is wrong, but George may be using it too.  The other is that is means light.  If that one is correct then Zeus Lykaios is a stormy god of light.  The important part for this thread is that the worshippers of Zeus Lykaios has a place on top of a mountain where they considered sacred and that anyone who entered would cast no shadow.  Anyone who entered that area had to be sacrificed to the god.  They also had an alter of ashes on that mountain left from the burnt remains of past sacrifices. Stannis is the King if the ashes per one of LmL's essays.  He sees himself wearing a burning crown and knows that means his death.  Anyway, Stannis is a storm lord who worships a god of light.  Casting no shadow comes from that myth.  Those are the same people who made an origin of werewolves story that involved cannibalism that should be familiar to anyone who read the Red Wedding chapter.  In that story Zeus Lykaios deals out his stormy justice on the people who ate a person.  At the end of ADwD we have stormy god of light figure Stannis heading down to dish out his stormy justice on the cannibals at Winterfell who just finished their Frey pies.  Look for clues about the origin of the wolf blood in whatever Stannis does to the occupants of Winterfell.  Being a werewolf is always a curse in mythology.  

 

@Pain killer Jane first brought the story of the Greek origin of werewolves to my attention.  Have either of you ever read about the trial of passage they were said to have done?  Teenage boys were fed meat, and who ever got the little bit of people meat hidden in it turned into a wolf.  Then they had to not eat human meat for a set amount of time until they changed back into a person.  Varamyr shows us a failed member.  He is a wolf. Then he eats people breaking an abomination rule.  Then he fails to become a person when he fails to skinchange Thistle.  Then he is doomed to a life as a wolf.  Robb also fails for some reason and dies as Grey Wind.  Jon will be the success story when he spends time as a wolf and becomes a person again.  

Edited by Unchained

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15 hours ago, Unchained said:

@ravenous reader, you might like this.  By the way I love your new profile pic.  

Thanks!  :cheers:

Quote

Has anyone else read Zeus's Wikipedia page?  There are different versions of him everywhere you go.  One is Zeus Lykaios. There are different interpretations of what that particular epithet means.  One is wolf.  I think that is wrong, but George may be using it too.  The other is that is means light.  If that one is correct then Zeus Lykaios is a stormy god of light.  The important part for this thread is that the worshippers of Zeus Lykaios has a place on top of a mountain where they considered sacred and that anyone who entered would cast no shadow.  Anyone who entered that area had to be sacrificed to the god.  They also had an alter of ashes on that mountain left from the burnt remains of past sacrifices. Stannis is the King if the ashes per one of LmL's essays.  He sees himself wearing a burning crown and knows that means his death.  Anyway, Stannis is a storm lord who worships a god of light.  Casting no shadow comes from that myth.  Those are the same people who made an origin of werewolves story that involved cannibalism that should be familiar to anyone who read the Red Wedding chapter.  In that story Zeus Lykaios deals out his stormy justice on the people who ate a person.  At the end of ADwD we have stormy god of light figure Stannis heading down to dish out his stormy justice on the cannibals at Winterfell who just finished their Frey pies.  Look for clues about the origin of the wolf blood in whatever Stannis does to the occupants of Winterfell.  Being a werewolf is always a curse in mythology.  

 

That's interesting.  There's also the chapter 'The Sacrifice' in which Stannis punishes the soldiers who've been cannibalising.

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@Pain killer Jane first brought the story of the Greek origin of werewolves to my attention.  Have either of you ever read about the trial of passage they were said to have done?  Teenage boys were fed meat, and who ever got the little bit of people meat hidden in it turned into a wolf.  Then they had to not eat human meat for a set amount of time until they changed back into a person.  Varamyr shows us a failed member.  He is a wolf. Then he eats people breaking an abomination rule.  Then he fails to become a person when he fails to skinchange Thistle.  Then he is doomed to a life as a wolf.  Robb also fails for some reason and dies as Grey Wind.  Jon will be the success story when he spends time as a wolf and becomes a person again.  

Varamyr's also a failed greenseer.  I found it interesting that his spirit was rejected by the weirwood for some reason, after however initially looking out through its eyes.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/20/2017 at 10:56 PM, Unchained said:

@ravenous reader, you might like this.  By the way I love your new profile pic.  

 

Has anyone else read Zeus's Wikipedia page?  There are different versions of him everywhere you go.  One is Zeus Lykaios. There are different interpretations of what that particular epithet means.  One is wolf.  I think that is wrong, but George may be using it too.  The other is that is means light.  If that one is correct then Zeus Lykaios is a stormy god of light.  The important part for this thread is that the worshippers of Zeus Lykaios has a place on top of a mountain where they considered sacred and that anyone who entered would cast no shadow.  Anyone who entered that area had to be sacrificed to the god.  They also had an alter of ashes on that mountain left from the burnt remains of past sacrifices. Stannis is the King if the ashes per one of LmL's essays.  He sees himself wearing a burning crown and knows that means his death.  Anyway, Stannis is a storm lord who worships a god of light.  Casting no shadow comes from that myth.  Those are the same people who made an origin of werewolves story that involved cannibalism that should be familiar to anyone who read the Red Wedding chapter.  In that story Zeus Lykaios deals out his stormy justice on the people who ate a person.  At the end of ADwD we have stormy god of light figure Stannis heading down to dish out his stormy justice on the cannibals at Winterfell who just finished their Frey pies.  Look for clues about the origin of the wolf blood in whatever Stannis does to the occupants of Winterfell.  Being a werewolf is always a curse in mythology.  

 

@Pain killer Jane first brought the story of the Greek origin of werewolves to my attention.  Have either of you ever read about the trial of passage they were said to have done?  Teenage boys were fed meat, and who ever got the little bit of people meat hidden in it turned into a wolf.  Then they had to not eat human meat for a set amount of time until they changed back into a person.  Varamyr shows us a failed member.  He is a wolf. Then he eats people breaking an abomination rule.  Then he fails to become a person when he fails to skinchange Thistle.  Then he is doomed to a life as a wolf.  Robb also fails for some reason and dies as Grey Wind.  Jon will be the success story when he spends time as a wolf and becomes a person again.  

Have you read the source material?  Some interesting info there:

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There is a precinct of Zeus Lykaios on the mountain and no man is allowed to enter it.  Should any one disregard the rule and enter, he cannot possibly live longer than a year.  It was said too that within the precinct all things, both beasts and man alike cast no shadow.  Consequently, when a beast takes refuge in the precinct, the hunter will not break in along with it, but waits outside and looking at the beast sees no shadow cast by it... 

in the precinct on Mount Lykaion there is the same lack of shadow at all times and seasons.  This marvel which is attested by other grave and respectable authors, (though skeptics were not wanting), probably hangs together with the Pythagorean belief that 'the souls of the dead cast no shadow and do not wink.'  The shadowless creature would on this showing be the man or beast already devoted to death.

Zeus A Study in Ancient Religion

Arthur Bernard Cook

The only other source that contains an approximation of  this quote is in something called the The Vision of Aridaeus, part of a 1907 collection, Echos from the Gnosis, by a historian, G.R.S. Mead,  and umm holy shit:

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Shortly after, Aridaeus had a severe fall, and though he broke no bones, the shock did for him.  Three days later, just as they were about to bury him, he recovered consciousness.  After this unpleasant experience, Aridaeus became an entirely reformed character, of quite exemplary virtue.  Such a startling change could not pass unnoticed; but it was only to a few of his greatest friends that he told what had happened to him during the "three days."  The story runs as follows:

When his consciousness passed out of the body, he experienced from the change the same sort of sensation that a sailor would who had been swept overboard into deep water.  Then, coming up a little, he seemed to breathe in every part of him, and to see on every side at once, as though the soul --the "single eye"-- had been opened.

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In that region, he said, he saw only one soul of a relative, though he was not quite sure about it, for his kinsman had died while he (Aridaeus) was still a boy.  However, he came up to him and said: "Welcome Thespesius!" And on his replying in surprise that his name was not Thespesius, but Aridaeus, the other remarked:

"It was Aridaeus, but from henceforth it will be Thespesius [that is, 'Sent by the Gods']; for indeed thou art not dead, but by the will of the Gods thou art come hither with thy reason about thee, whilst thou hast left the rest of thy soul, as it were an anchor, in the body.  And this thou mayest now and hereafter prove to thyself by the fact that the souls of the dead cast no shadow and never close their eyelids."

 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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