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Defenders on Netflix (full spoilers)


Werthead

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No thread yet? Really?

Anyway, I thought this was a serious step up from Iron Fist in overall quality and from Luke Cage in pacing. The eight-episode run felt about right and I'm already annoyed that apparently all the commissioned seasons (TP 1, JJ 2, DD 3, LC 2 and IF 2) are all going to be 13 episodes each again, which seems dumb. The interplay between the main characters was pretty good, and Iron Fist being the butt of all the gags was entertaining, even if it does damage an already difficult-to-empathise-with character. Jessica Jones was the best thing in it, as expect, but the fight choreography was pretty good as well, even if the so-called "money shot" scene (of the four heroes fighting in the pit) is nowhere near as good as Daredevil's hall fight. It was also good to see Misty, Claire and Colleen having a fair bit to do, to the point where they could form a secondary superteam with them.

The biggest weakness is the villains: the Hand are simply shit, boring and way overplayed at this point. Sigourney Weaver was wasted - why the hell would you cast her and make a huge deal out of it and then kill her off with two episodes to go? - and Elektra didn't really pick up the slack. The fake-out over Matt's death was also moronic, with Daredevil Season 3 announced almost a year ago. At least they did confirm at the end he'd survived, but Elektra and the other Hand members' fates being ambiguous is boring. I guess they'll show up again (depending on the terms of the impending Marvel/Netflix divorce, which may make the whole franchise moot).

Overall, decent but not living up to its full potential.

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I watched it all yesterday day, and think it was much better than Luke Cage and Iron First.  I probably watched it a little too quickly as I was nodding off in a few places. I  agree that Jessica was the best thing about the show, she stole pretty much every scene she was in. The fight scenes all around are much better in this than those past two shows; I particularly enjoyed the first full team up and the last one.

I also agree that Sigourney Weaver was wasted, but at 67 it's not like was going to be Ripley in the Marvel universe. To kill her off with two episodes to go does rankle though.

Misty was fantastic as expected. I thought Foggy did well in his limited role. It seems odd that Karen hasn't talked to Matt since the end of their last season, and she felt tacked on because they needed someone else on the people Matt cares about list, whereas Foggy had an actual purpose (Trish falls into the same category as Karen). The actress playing Colleen was pretty terrible again, but that's not surprising with so many people that can act around her. 

I really hope this end of The Hand, at least for several years. They're just stale at this point. I did enjoy Elektra more here than in Daredevil, but still don't feel like the Black Sky was adequately explained (but maybe I missed it when I nodded off occasionally). Is it something akin to the iron fist? But born instead of earned through trials? And how often are they born, because we've seen two that couldn't be more than 10-15 years apart. How the hell had The Hand never got their hands on one before now if they're that common? The Chaste couldn't have been that good, and still get completely wiped out here. I was not sorry to see Stick go,I was getting very sick of his BS.

And yeah that Daredevil death fake out was very stupid.

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I hope that was the end of the Hand too. They were never very interesting and I could do without the whole mystical ninjas aspect of the Netflix shows. The whole thing could have been done with Gao standing in for Alexandra, but they probably wanted a big name to play the main villain. Still her performance did nothing for me. It's mildly weird that we'll never meet that guy(Stone?) Stick spoke with at the end of Daredevil season one. I also still wonder what the hand were doing to those kids in the hospital in Daredevil season two. 

I'm not too upset at the news that Netflix apparently will be limited to the six existing series, it's not like they've done an amazing job with the properties they have. Personally I'm really looking forward to Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, cautiously optimistic about The Punisher  and Daredevil 3 and couldn't care less about the continuing adventures of Iron Fist. 

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Couple of thoughts now that I have finished it:

1. I love Daredevil and for me, he will always be the best part of The Defenders. The way Charlie Cox portrays him is amazing. He brought the certain emotional depth to the show. At times, it was clumsily written, but I feel that Matt's search for goodness, not just in Elektra, but himself is one of the major themes of his story and I feel that it would have been much better if Elektra proved to be much worthier adversary. That said, as much as it would have broken my heart, I sincerely hoped that they would keep him dead. Marvel always have issues with killing off characters, and this one was no exception.

2. The beginning was great for me as it carefully laid the foundations. I especially liked how stylistically different are the shots taken in different part of the city when focused on different characters. From Matt in church with the red lighting to Jessica and all the shades of blue and purple used in her storyline to Luke and yellow and orange. Contrasting this colorfulness is Sigourney Weaver's costumes who were immaculately clean and white. There is something so clean, almost sterile in the way she looked, which captivated me. I loved that her role was not physical, but I can't escape the feeling that she could/should have done much more.

3. Probably the best interaction for me, when it comes to the team is the restaurant sequence. It is done very nicely with camera just rolling from one to another, giving it natural flow. Overall, I liked the way they were brought together and how they quickly started working together, understanding (without hours of explanations) who the bad guys are. The entire building fight scene was done in "let's get to business" kind of way, and I liked it. 

4. And now comes the biggie. The Hand. I sincerely hope they are done. Like seriously, I hope they are through and through. The problem I have is that the beauty of DD was in its unpretentious nature. The show dealt with street superhero and for some time, the emphasis was on street. They were not saving the world, they were not facing alien invasions or mystical stones. They were just people trying to save the neighborhood. And I LOVED that. For me, everything went south when the Hand was introduced and the more they wanted it to be intricate and dangerous, the less sense it made for me. Can you imagine Alexandra and the danger she would present if she was just another person threatening the city for this or that benefit? I really wish that they focused on street level fighting and less on kung fu/ninja secret cult mystical substance nonsense.

 

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I don't think that the writers were trying to "fake us out" with Daredevil's death.... I mean... I doubt anyone really thought he was dead... and then they showed him to us five minutes later... I think they're just trying to set-up Danny filling the role for a while until Matt returns...

I *loved* Electra in this... the moral ambiguity and the ease in which she killed...  Elodie Yung was fantastic....

As for The Hand being a weak villain... it was really the plot to destroy the city that the defenders were trying to stop... and the five fingers were just the people behind the plot... and in the end, it was Electra... the numbers game --the Hand have a shit ton of red shirts-- really worked in that last fight scene... the choreography was fantastic....

I thought Finn Jones / ironfist worked much better in the ensemble cast.... none of the things that annoyed me about IF S1 bothered me in this...

Kristen Ritter's "this is bullshit/oh shut the fuck up" faces are gold..

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Alright, so Defenders:

It was "okay." Honestly, I wanted more out of this. Whereas the Marvel films are meticulously constructed so that they fit together fairly seamlessly, this show felt jumbled together. For me, the Hand was an overall failure, and the Netflix universe would do well to just leave them alone going forward.

Alexandra, for me, benefited from having a great big name actress, but her character ended up being thin as hell. They tried to portray her as a Kingpin-type, with a dignified, yet brutal, aura, but there was nothing behind it. You learn nothing about her outside of her desire to live.

Even though the show itself wasn't a failure, the show was just good enough. They need to collect their bearings and regroup. That starts from the top down. I've never been a fan of Loeb, and he's definitely no Kevin Feige. I think he needs to go. Iron Fist was a colossal failure and Inhumans is getting some bad early buzz -- add this to the equation, and the dude is whiffing.

The best part of the show was seeing the characters come together, of course. But after a couple episodes, the show couldn't use it as a crutch anymore.

Jessica Jones, for me, had the best showcase. She's the easiest character to showcase, though -- she has the benefit of having all the snark, so she's great fanservice...she says all the things we'd say.

Daredevil will always be my favorite on these shows, and I will always carry a torch for the dysfunctional relationship with Elektra. I want them to be miserably in love forever. I also wanted more stuff with them, even though they're running the risk of making Elektra way too convoluted a character. They need to strip away the bullshit and get back to basics with her, especially.

Matt had a great courtroom scene in the first episode that made me yearn for more of that bend for a Daredevil season 3.

Luke was okay, but faded to the background in the final episodes. I've never been that much of a fan of the actor, even though he looks the part. There's just always that part of his performance that reads inauthentic to me. I think his baggage with Jessica was handled a little too cleanly. I just remember that mess being much heavier than this show would have you believe.

Iron Fist benefited from being treated as the joke his character was in Iron Fist. That's the difference between his show and Defenders -- on his show, they wanted us to take him seriously. This time around, they used him as a punchline for everyone. It makes his character tolerable, but only as a joke...I'm not so sure that's a good thing? That's not going to work for his solo show.

Supporting cast was okay, I guess. Cool to see them all mixing. Excited for the future of the Daughters of the Dragon. Claire is dangerously close to being too much, though. The worst thing they can do with this character is involve her too much in the action. She is a great supporting character...why they feel like they need to have her whacking henchmen upside the head with wrenches is beyond me. Have her patch these people up -- stop trying to make her a clumsy ninja warrior.

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5 episodes in and I'm dragging my feet. I really can't stand Iron Fist's character and interactions -- I feel like I'm 12 watching Dawson's Creek. Outside of the funny Luke Cage and Jessica Jones snark, I find the dialogue pretty bad too. Also these villains are not doing it for me. I never feel like anyone is actually in danger.

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2 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

Luke was okay, but faded to the background in the final episodes. I've never been that much of a fan of the actor, even though he looks the part. There's just always that part of his performance that reads inauthentic to me. I think his baggage with Jessica was handled a little too cleanly. I just remember that mess being much heavier than this show would have you believe.

I disagree about Colter's performance, but agree that absolutely no weight was given to the fact that Jessica killed his former girlfriend. I know Luke has since learned some bad things about Reva but that should not be enough for him to greet her killer like they're old friends who just lost touch for a few years while they were busy with their own shit. I know they briefly touched on it later, but Luke's initial reaction to Jessica at the very least deserved to have more weight to it.

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I just finished it, and quite enjoyed it. I felt that 8 episodes was too short, 10 would have been better to let some stuff develop better.

I'm ok with the Hand being the main villains, as since season 1 of DD, things have been building up to i, and they gave a compelling reason to have all 4 heroes involved. DD's story most covered the Hand, and IF's earlier this year, but just like with the MCU, where you have the main villain of for the Avengers introduced in a standalone superhero film (Thor). But the these shows allowed for a better build up of the Hand, and a satisfying conclusion. The only thing about is that I wished they have developed Alexandra a bit more.

But now it looks that the Hand plot is done, at least I hope it is. Gao was my favorite of them, she was an evil Yoda, and it looked she would escape there at the end, but I don't think she did.

One thing that bothers me, going back to the end of Daredevil season 1, was the part where Stick was talking to some mysterious guy with a scarred back. Did they brush away whatever intention they had with that character, or is he part of a plot different from the Hand?

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It was entertaining, even if not without problems, some of them typical of the superhero genre- how come Elektra lasts more than 3 seconds against Cage, for one- some of them of the show itself, specially the villains not feeling particularly threatening, even if they were well acted.

There were some improvements from the other shows- at least it looks like Iron Fist can fight, for one (probably because Finn Jones actually had time to train), and with 8 episodes there wasn't really a lot of wasted time like on some shows. The banter between the four of them worked very well too.

Also, can we PLEASE end the "introducing the villain as he butchers some animal to make him look threatening" trope? It was great when it started with Tywin, it worked fine for Limehouse, but now it seems it happens in every goddamned show.

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18 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It was entertaining, even if not without problems, some of them typical of the superhero genre- how come Elektra lasts more than 3 seconds against Cage, for one- some of them of the show itself, specially the villains not feeling particularly threatening, even if they were well acted.

That's one thing I forgot to mention in my review. Extremely inconsistent representation of power. I assumed Elektra was powered up from her resurrection juice, hence why she could fight Luke and Jessica at the same time. It made no sense that Matt would be able to hurt her, though.

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18 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It was entertaining, even if not without problems, some of them typical of the superhero genre- how come Elektra lasts more than 3 seconds against Cage, for one- some of them of the show itself, specially the villains not feeling particularly threatening, even if they were well acted.

Elektra's ability to take on the heroes was very uneven. One moment she throws Luke in a wall, the next, Matt or Dany can go toe to toe with her, like she's just another martial artist.

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I gave it a 6/10. Sigourney Weaver was a lousy villain and the Hand storyline in itself just never pulled me in. I would have preferred it if Madame Gao was in charge.

Iron Fist still does absolutely nothing for me and I got tired of the team constantly saying "that's crazy" and "that's impossible". I mean come on folks, you have a ninja lawyer with super-senses, a walking tank, a woman who could probably pull a tank and a man who got his powers by fighting a dragon. I just didn't feel much for our heroes in general.

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The villains were definitely the weakest part.

I was most annoyed with the Japanese guy (I didn't even learn his name.) They were like this is the guy behind Nobu, so you think well he must be dangerous. Except he isn't. And he doesn't bring anything with him. So all the mooks are just the average Hand thugs.

Sowande they kind of hinted had some kind of pressure points thing he could do to make Luke weak, but that didn't go anywhere.

Gao is a great baddie, but she's suffered with overexposure. She's had to do too much, so her impact has been reduced.

Bakuto is my favourite, because he's entirely about Colleen (the best part of IF.) I cared about his showdown upstairs far more than the big fight in the hole.

I really don't know what to think of Alexandra, she was constantly on the cusp of being interesting, but never quite got there. A waste of a great talent I'm afraid.

Elektra, GAH! She looked perfect, but that was it. She could carry a fight scene or two, but not the Big Bad role.

 

But there were good parts. I liked the way the team worked. All the ancillary characters also had enough stuff to do. Some of the fight scenes were pretty good. Iron Fist was improved a bit, but still isn't there. It was pretty much exactly the right length.

I wasn't blown away by it, but didn't hate it. I'd probably rate it second worst above Iron Fist, but I think I enjoyed DD2 and Luke Cage more than some did.

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52 minutes ago, Crazydog7 said:

Can we have a change of venue for once?  Give New York a break from the latest world ending event. 

I thought these heroes were all about NY. Change the villains, sure, but I think NY needs to stay. Also, this show has had the only ending event so far.

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Not a fan of the lack of explanations in that ending. Was there supposed to be a dragon in that "structure"? How would the hand become immortal and be able to return to Kyun Lun? IF opened the door and.. they were in another part of a cave. And why was the Black Sky so powerful and where was it's end of the world power? Also, was the "substance" the blood being drained from the zombie kids in DD S2? Why couldn't they just harvest more of it? Way too many unanswered questions.

 

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Just now, WarGalley said:

Not a fan of the lack of explanations in that ending. Was there supposed to be a dragon in that "structure"? How would the hand become immortal and be able to return to Kyun Lun? IF opened the door and.. they were in another part of a cave. And why was the Black Sky so powerful and where was it's end of the world power? Also, was the "substance" the blood being drained from the zombie kids in DD S2? Why couldn't they just harvest more of it? Way too many unanswered questions.

 

The dragon was the ribcage supports they were walking through, which (handwave) apparently supported all of New York. The substance was the bone marrow of a dragon. 

Why New York would fall if those were removed, I have no idea. Why the Hand wanted New York to fall, I don't know either. 

I mostly enjoyed it, though it wasn't very thoughtful or different. It heavily reminded me of Buffy, and I feel like we've grown past that as a TV watching audience. Jessica remained incredible, I loved her and Luke together again, there were some decent bits and Alexandra almost became a decent villain, though never graduated to doing anything particularly scary. The best thing they did, IMO, was make the Iron Fist a huge joke. 

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