The Crown and Dorne after Robert's Rebellion

[Lord Giggles]

Something that's often confused me about the way Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon handled relations with Dorne following the Rebellion is why they made no attempt to cement Dorne's allegiance to the new regime with marriage. After all, Doran had a daughter already and after Joffrey was born, certainly after Tommen was born, possibly even using Renly, it would seem to make sense to try and bind Dorne to the Crown in a more solid way than trusting their oaths of allegiance, particularly when potential pretenders to Robert's throne still existed in the form of Viserys and Daenerys. Of all the Great Houses, only House Tyrell and House Martell stayed loyal to House Targaryen throughout the rebellion and of those two, the only one who seriously suffered because of it was House Martell so logically they're one the Houses who you would need to do the most to bring firmly back into the fold. Besides this, an attempt to broker such a betrothal could have been used as a way of trying to get at where House Martell's true loyalties lay. Most great houses would leap at the chance to marry into the royal family so if House Martell refused then it would be virtually the equivalent shouting from the rooftops that they were plotting to overthrow the current regime. So that's my question: Why during Robert Baratheon's reign was there seemingly no attempt to bind Dorne to the crown by marriage? 

[Valyrian Spoon]

If I remember rightly, in one of the Arianne chapters she mentions that there was rumours of a possible betrothal to Edmure Tully at least. However Doran wouldn't allow them to meet and kept matching her with old and boring men deliberately knowing she would turn them down.

 

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

That's because Doran Martell was trying to set a marriage between Arianne and Viserys, that really had no point because Viserys had nothing to offer in exchange, and then took the Gold Bucket Challenge. But there were other options, right? I.e. Robb Stark or Theon Greyjoy.

[Trigger Warning]

Perhaps Jon Arryn thought that Doran would see asking for a betrothal as a round about way of asking for a hostage, not to mention his sister that went off to a wedding in the North was just brutally murdered alongside her children. Not worth the risk of twisting the knife. 

[Angel Eyes]

19 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Perhaps Jon Arryn thought that Doran would see asking for a betrothal as a round about way of asking for a hostage, not to mention his sister that went off to a wedding in the North was just brutally murdered alongside her children. Not worth the risk of twisting the knife. 

What do you mean, she went to the North? Don't think it's ever mentioned that Elia got closer than Casterly Rock in her whole life.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Perhaps if Robert gave Stannis Stormsend instead of Renly Jon Arryn would have proposed a betrothal between Renly and Arianne. However with Renly already being Lord of the Stormlands him giving it up to become a consort to Arianne wouldn't have made as much sense. 

42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

What do you mean, she went to the North? Don't think it's ever mentioned that Elia got closer than Casterly Rock in her whole life.

I think they meant that the Dornish consider any place north of Dorne as "the North." The same way Wildlings consider Winterfell and any place south of the Wall as "the South." 

[Angel Eyes]

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Perhaps if Robert gave Stannis Stormsend instead of Renly Jon Arryn would have proposed a betrothal between Renly and Arianne. However with Renly already being Lord of the Stormlands him giving it up to become a consort to Arianne wouldn't have made as much sense. 

I think they meant that the Dornish consider any place north of Dorne as "the North." The same way Wildlings consider Winterfell and any place south of the Wall as "the South." 

Guess I missed that part about the Dornish considering anything north of Dorne as the North.

[Ckram]

6 hours ago, Lord Giggles said:

why they made no attempt to cement Dorne's allegiance to the new regime with marriage.

After the Rebellion, I think Jon Arryn had to choose between Doran or Tywin.

Doran had already lost 10,000 men in the Battle of the Trident while Tywin had fought an easy fight at King's Landing. Dorne has many historical enemies and their presence at court has always been a source of discontent. A marriage between Robert and a Dornish Lady would be such a farce that it's not worth commenting on. So Tywin was the best choice.

On the other hand, a marriage with a member of the court would open Dorne a permanent door to the Red Keep, and all kinds of threats would have free access. I think Jon Arryn knew that any Dornish man or woman at court would be a potential assassin or spy, especially after Robert's marriage with Tywin's daughter.

6 hours ago, Lord Giggles said:

if House Martell refused then it would be virtually the equivalent shouting from the rooftops that they were plotting to overthrow the current regime.

It reminded me of Sun Tzu: "To a surrounded enemy you must leave a way of escape. Do not press a desperate enemy too hard". 

Traditionally it is interpreted that Sun Tzu meant that a completely surrounded enemy fights until death. And in Dorne's case, no one in their right mind could expect less than that. Therefore, having an ambiguous relationship with Dorne seemed a better option than asking them to choose between submitting or rebelling.

[The Mountain That Flies]

18 hours ago, Ckram said:

After the Rebellion, I think Jon Arryn had to choose between Doran or Tywin.

Doran had already lost 10,000 men in the Battle of the Trident while Tywin had fought an easy fight at King's Landing. Dorne has many historical enemies and their presence at court has always been a source of discontent. A marriage between Robert and a Dornish Lady would be such a farce that it's not worth commenting on. So Tywin was the best choice.

On the other hand, a marriage with a member of the court would open Dorne a permanent door to the Red Keep, and all kinds of threats would have free access. I think Jon Arryn knew that any Dornish man or woman at court would be a potential assassin or spy, especially after Robert's marriage with Tywin's daughter.

It reminded me of Sun Tzu: "To a surrounded enemy you must leave a way of escape. Do not press a desperate enemy too hard". 

Traditionally it is interpreted that Sun Tzu meant that a completely surrounded enemy fights until death. And in Dorne's case, no one in their right mind could expect less than that. Therefore, having an ambiguous relationship with Dorne seemed a better option than asking them to choose between submitting or rebelling.

This is a valid point, but if someone were married into House Martell and sent to Sunspear as a quasi-hostage, would that be a submission on the part of Dorne?

Of course an obvious counter-point would be that neither Jon Arryn or Robert would have trusted a hostage of any worth to to Dorne.

[Daena the Defiant]

On 8/19/2017 at 1:54 PM, Angel Eyes said:

That's because Doran Martell was trying to set a marriage between Arianne and Viserys, that really had no point because Viserys had nothing to offer in exchange, and then took the Gold Bucket Challenge. But there were other options, right? I.e. Robb Stark or Theon Greyjoy.

You shall forever have a special place in my heart for "gold bucket challenge."

[Angel Eyes]

On the other hand, they could try having a Martell child, I.e. Quentyn, fostered somewhere else, like Theon being sent to Ned Stark after the Greyjoy Rebellion. 

[Kytheros]

1 hour ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

This is a valid point, but if someone were married into House Martell and sent to Sunspear as a quasi-hostage, would that be a submission on the part of Dorne?

Of course an obvious counter-point would be that neither Jon Arryn or Robert would have trusted a hostage of any worth to to Dorne.

It's also worth pointing out that at the time, there wasn't anyone they could really have sent to Dorne either.

I think the only candidate available to them would have been Renly Baratheon, presumably betrothing him to Ariane.

Maybe Benjen Stark would have been a possibility, but I doubt it.

After that, about all they could do would be to offer not-yet-conceived children. And that'd a pretty dubious offer.

[Ckram]

4 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

This is a valid point, but if someone were married into House Martell and sent to Sunspear as a quasi-hostage, would that be a submission on the part of Dorne?

It wouldn't be a submission, but it would not be a peace alliance either. Dorne would only be at an advantage, a hostage ahead of the Iron Throne.

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

On the other hand, they could try having a Martell child, I.e. Quentyn, fostered somewhere else, like Theon being sent to Ned Stark after the Greyjoy Rebellion. 

They could have tried, but hostages don't garantee peace with Dorne, how the first Daeron found out when, even after he took dornish highborn hostages, his army died by the hands of Dorne's smallfolk, acting on their own behalf. This point is reinforced by Yandel's claim that "the disunity of the Dornish is apparent even from our oldest sources".

2 hours ago, Kytheros said:

It's also worth pointing out that at the time, there wasn't anyone they could really have sent to Dorne either.

I think Jon Arryn just wanted Dorne to shut up, and apparently Doran and Oberyn were glad to give him that in order to have time to set a greater ambush.