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norwaywolf123

Crackpot Jeyne Westerling

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Posted (edited)

My crackpot is that jeyne westerling will marry jaime lannister!

Anyone find the thought intresting? Tell me what you think are good ideas, what you would add or what you disagree with.

Maggys prophecy (Red=Cersei,Green=maggy)

Quote

When will I wed the prince?" she asked. 
"Never. You will wed the king."

... "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her. 
"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

- I suspect that Jeyne Westerling will be the younger more beautiful to cast her down and take what she holds dear(Only Jaime if her children are dead). Jeyne also used to be queen of the north thur her marriage to Robb Stark.

- We know that Jeyne is

Younger: Cersei was born in 266 AL making her 34 years in 300 AL. Jeyne was born in 283 AL making her 17 in 300 AL. Funny, in the year 300 AL Jeyne is half Cersei's age.

Beautiful(potentially): We know that Cersei is ageing and has begun to drink more, maybe this will lower her attractiveness?

Quote

 'Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it. Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him.” 

Petyr Baelish also thinks that Cersei beauty is fading.

Foreshadowing

- Maybe Jeyne Westerling will be a parallell charcter foreshadowed by Johanna Lannister Nee Westerling , who was born a westerling and married to Jason Lannister head of house Lannister. Jaimes mother was also named to Johanna maybe it is a hint? Assuming Jaime meets the same end as Jason and jeyne has a lion, then the spicers would be in control of casterly rock thru the use of their wit similarlily to lann the clever. Jason Lannister had brother named Tyland Lannister who could be a foreshadowing of Tyrions fate. Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion's mother was johanna Lannister the daughter of Jason Lannister another foreshadowing?

- Links

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lann_the_Clever

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tyland_Lannister

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Johanna_Lannister

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jason_Lannister

Poltical Reasons + Bitter Sweet Ending

- GRRM has said that the ending will be bittersweet. What would a bittersweet ending entail? My understanding is that there will be losses and suffering but in the end there will be glimmer of light and hope. Therefor it should be peace in Westeros after the war for the dawn. The lord paramounts of the riverlands, vale and the north are all realted thru House Tully. Assuming Jaime or another Lannister married Jeyne or someone else cementing a bond between these houses, there would be more chance for peace. My thinking is that Jaime marrying Jeyne will help mend ties with the North, Riverlands and Vale for House Lannister and the Westerlands.

- If Jaime becomes head of House Lannister he will need an heir. He could let one of his relatives inherit or produce a heir himself. If he were to produce an heir he would need a female partner this could also cement ties between House Lannister and House X. Jeyne Westerling could provide Jaime Lannister with an heir. By having a heir of his loins Jaime would make succesion more stable inside House Lannister.

- If Jeyne Westerling is pregnant with Robbs heir, that would cement her ties to House Stark(her child would be rightfull heir, niece/nephew of the Eddard Starks children, Cousin of Jon Snow/Rhaegars+Lyannas bastard), House Tully(great nephew of Edmure Tully) and House Arryn(second degree cousin of Robert Arryn). By marrying Jeyne Westerling, Jaimes children with her would be the sibling of the rightfull heir of the North who is related to the heads(currently) of the Riverlands and the Vale. Assuming Jeyne and Robbs child, maybe shortend to Jebb? ;) Asumming Jebb was raised at Casterly Rock Jebb could also function as a hostage.

Edited by norwaywolf123

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Lady Stark would never marry Ser Jamie for reasons I thought were obvious like the Lannisters had her husband murdered being pretty high on the list.

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The big question ist how can Jeyne cast down Cersei and how can she take everything (children, power) that Cersei holds dear?

Jeyne would need at least an army to achieve this. The Westerlings dont't have much soldiers and the Westerlings don't really have strong allies who would rebel against Cersei. The Northern Lords more or less have to deal with the Boltons and are searching for the lost Stark children. Nobody seeks for Jeyne and why should they, she was only the wife of there king and all power she had came from her husband Robb, who is now dead. It would be another case if she was known to be pregnant with Robb's heir.

Jaime on the other hand has a considerable amount of loyal soldiers. But there are a few problems. The first one is that he is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and therefore not Lord of the Westlands (Cersei is Lady of the Westlands). So his army is in reality Cersei's army and I don't know how much soldiers and bannermen from the Westlands would be loyal enough to him to act against there liege lord/lady Cersei. And the second problem is that he seams simply not interested in Jeyne. He apparently doesn't love her (he hasn't shown any such feelings when he met Jeyne) and has no reason to support the queen of a dead northern king. And I don't really see a reason why this should change in the future.

So, no, this theory is not very likely.

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I think that the "most likely" remarriage for Jeyne Westerling-Stark, presuming she and her second/new husband are aligned against Cersei/in favor of Robb Stark's legacy, would be Robb's brother. Such a scenario would likely also involve Robb's Will, naming Jon his heir/regent for heir of body. That could happen with her pregnant by Robb or not, but if she's pregnant by Robb, it's unlikely that she'd choose to marry anyone else, especially if Robb's Will is in play. Although, Jeyne pregnant by Robb/with Robb's child, might be attractive to certain suitors, similar to the way Lysa was after Jon Arryn's death.

 

Jaime Lannister is not going to marry Jeyne. It gains him nothing. For that matter, whilst he's still part of the Kingsguard, he can't marry at all. And even were he to leave/be released from his Kingsguard Vows, there's no way he'd be marrying her. In addition, Cersei'd never sign off on Jaime marrying anyone else, much less a traitor (in Cersei's mind) like Jeyne Westerling-Stark.

It's highly improbable that Jaime marries anyone at all.

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That's definitely a creative take on things. I agree that once she's lost her children, Jaime will be the only thing left to take. It's also a fun twist that the YMBQ would be the great-granddaughter of the woman who gave Cersei that fortune. But Jeyne doesn't have to marry Jaime to make this work. All she has to do is convince him to side with her on something. Jaime is already done with Cersei, so finding another lady to champion is a definite possibility if he survives whatever will happen with Brienne and Lady Stoneheart. If Jeyne somehow ends up near LS and convinces her to let Jaime live, he'll owe Jeyne his life and this could get very interesting.

Did you know there was another Jeyne Westerling who was wed to Maegor the Cruel? Fun stuff, but hopefully it has no bearing on the current story.

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

The big question ist how can Jeyne cast down Cersei and how can she take everything (children, power) that Cersei holds dear?

Jeyne would need at least an army to achieve this. The Westerlings dont't have much soldiers and the Westerlings don't really have strong allies who would rebel against Cersei. The Northern Lords more or less have to deal with the Boltons and are searching for the lost Stark children. Nobody seeks for Jeyne and why should they, she was only the wife of there king and all power she had came from her husband Robb, who is now dead. It would be another case if she was known to be pregnant with Robb's heir.

Jaime on the other hand has a considerable amount of loyal soldiers. But there are a few problems. The first one is that he is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and therefore not Lord of the Westlands (Cersei is Lady of the Westlands). So his army is in reality Cersei's army and I don't know how much soldiers and bannermen from the Westlands would be loyal enough to him to act against there liege lord/lady Cersei. And the second problem is that he seams simply not interested in Jeyne. He apparently doesn't love her (he hasn't shown any such feelings when he met Jeyne) and has no reason to support the queen of a dead northern king. And I don't really see a reason why this should change in the future.

So, no, this theory is not very likely.

- If Jeyne is pregnant with Robbs heir and can prove it the heir would be valueble to house lannister. Tywin wanted tyrion and sansas children to take charge of the north after the boltons as he thought the north would only accept a stark as lord paramount. Jeyne marryning jaime will give House lannister control and innfluence over the future lord stark. Maybe it could also give Casterly rock ties to riverrun too?

17 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Lady Stark would never marry Ser Jamie for reasons I thought were obvious like the Lannisters had her husband murdered being pretty high on the list.

If Jeyne married Jaime while having Robbs heir it will tie riverrun and winterfell to casterly rock. I think House Lannister would benefit hte most from this. But it would be humiliating i think for jaime to marry a woman with a child.

12 hours ago, Kytheros said:

I think that the "most likely" remarriage for Jeyne Westerling-Stark, presuming she and her second/new husband are aligned against Cersei/in favor of Robb Stark's legacy, would be Robb's brother. Such a scenario would likely also involve Robb's Will, naming Jon his heir/regent for heir of body. That could happen with her pregnant by Robb or not, but if she's pregnant by Robb, it's unlikely that she'd choose to marry anyone else, especially if Robb's Will is in play. Although, Jeyne pregnant by Robb/with Robb's child, might be attractive to certain suitors, similar to the way Lysa was after Jon Arryn's death.

 

Jaime Lannister is not going to marry Jeyne. It gains him nothing. For that matter, whilst he's still part of the Kingsguard, he can't marry at all. And even were he to leave/be released from his Kingsguard Vows, there's no way he'd be marrying her. In addition, Cersei'd never sign off on Jaime marrying anyone else, much less a traitor (in Cersei's mind) like Jeyne Westerling-Stark.

It's highly improbable that Jaime marries anyone at all.

- A marriage with jeyne westerling would tie house westerling and spicer to house lannister

- Jeyne can give jaime or another lannister a heir

- If jeyne is pregnant, the child will be tied to tully and stark, which could help jaimes relationship with edmure, house stark.Jeyne would also have proven fertility.

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's definitely a creative take on things. I agree that once she's lost her children, Jaime will be the only thing left to take. It's also a fun twist that the YMBQ would be the great-granddaughter of the woman who gave Cersei that fortune. But Jeyne doesn't have to marry Jaime to make this work. All she has to do is convince him to side with her on something. Jaime is already done with Cersei, so finding another lady to champion is a definite possibility if he survives whatever will happen with Brienne and Lady Stoneheart. If Jeyne somehow ends up near LS and convinces her to let Jaime live, he'll owe Jeyne his life and this could get very interesting.

Intresting suggestion

Quote

Did you know there was another Jeyne Westerling who was wed to Maegor the Cruel? Fun stuff, but hopefully it has no bearing on the current story.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Westerling_(wife_of_Maegor_I)

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_Brides

- Maegor's Jeyne westerling was one of the black brides and was a widow with proven fertility. Maybe this suggests that she will give birth and be widowed. She is already widow(Robb) but could be again if her next potential husband(jaime) dies. maybe we will also see a maegor come again?

4 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Maybe.

I BELIVE

Edited by norwaywolf123

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It's one angle I suppose. I just see Jaime wanting to do something braver/stupider so he can put something in that big white book. 

I would really enjoy seeing Jeyne Westerling in the story. She's clearly pissed off and I think that given the opportunity she would choose revenge over submission. 

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If Jeyne is pregnant with Robbs heir and can prove it the heir would be valueble to house lannister. Tywin wanted tyrion and sansas children to take charge of the north after the boltons as he thought the north would only accept a stark as lord paramount. Jeyne marryning jaime will give House lannister control and innfluence over the future lord stark. Maybe it could also give Casterly rock ties to riverrun too?

I think it's very unlikely that Jeyne is pregnant. Her grandmother (?) made sure of that by giving her potions.

But even if she is pregnant, it is not necessary for Jaime to marry her to get the advantages you mentioned. When the Lannisters get to know that she is pregnant with Robb's heir, the Lannisters could simply invite her to Casterly Rock, which will give them enough influence over the child while the child grows up. By the way, I don't see that a child of Robb and Jeyne would give them any influence over the Riverlands. The reason is simple, Edmure is the heir of last Tully Lord of Riverrun and his son is in the hands of the Freys. This child is definitely more important than the grandchild of the daughter of the last Tully Lord of Riverrun.

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A marriage with jeyne westerling would tie house westerling and spicer to house lannister

The houses Westerling and Spicer are already bannermen to the Lannisters. Their wealth and military strength is very low. So there is not really a need to tie them closer to the Lannisters. The Westerlings and Spicers are simply not important enough.

Quote

Jeyne can give jaime or another lannister a heir

Every other noble lady can do the same.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

I think it's very unlikely that Jeyne is pregnant. Her grandmother (?) made sure of that by giving her potions.

But even if she is pregnant, it is not necessary for Jaime to marry her to get the advantages you mentioned. When the Lannisters get to know that she is pregnant with Robb's heir, the Lannisters could simply invite her to Casterly Rock, which will give them enough influence over the child while the child grows up. By the way, I don't see that a child of Robb and Jeyne would give them any influence over the Riverlands. The reason is simple, Edmure is the heir of last Tully Lord of Riverrun and his son is in the hands of the Freys. This child is definitely more important than the grandchild of the daughter of the last Tully Lord of Riverrun.

I am thinking it would link Jaime to Riverrun and Winterfell. Which might be practical if the Starks go south again and to keep more peace between the Westerlands and the Riverlands.

Edited by norwaywolf123

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2 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I would really enjoy seeing Jeyne Westerling in the story. She's clearly pissed off and I think that given the opportunity she would choose revenge over submission. 

I've occasionally proposed that if Roslin has a boy and Edmure is executed, then she, Jeyne, and Stoneheart can form a group called the Merry Widows and hang people together. They'd be reminiscent of the fates (moirai) and the furies (erinye).

1 hour ago, Haskelltier said:

I think it's very unlikely that Jeyne is pregnant. Her grandmother (?) made sure of that by giving her potions.

That would be her mother, Sybell. But...if someone in the family knew what mama was up to and disapproved, they could have swapped out the moon tea with an actual fertility potion, or just regular tea. I like the idea that Jeyne's father might do something like that, but being a Lannister bannerman he was probably either off fighting somewhere or stuck in a dungeon.

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22 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That would be her mother, Sybell. But...if someone in the family knew what mama was up to and disapproved, they could have swapped out the moon tea with an actual fertility potion, or just regular tea.

Do we know how far along Jeyne could possibly be along her pregnancy? For all we know Sybell could have only told Jaime what he wanted to hear, Sybell might plan to give abortion drug to jeyne as a stark maybe is bad for the house unless someting happens?

22 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I like the idea that Jeyne's father might do something like that, but being a Lannister bannerman he was probably either off fighting somewhere or stuck in a dungeon.

We know this about lord westerling (Gawen)

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Gawen is freed after his daughter, Jeyne, marries King Robb Stark, although they married without his consent.[2]

Gawen likely had contact with jeyne after her marriage to Robb. Maybe he was happy for her? Maybe he was proud of her, for marryning up or something? We know that gawen was not involved in the honeypot plot as he was a captive of House Stark before the marriage.

Quote

Jeyne Westerling comforts Robb after he took an arrow wound storming the Crag. To save her from dishonor, Robb marries Jeyne afterwards. Rollam Westerling becomes Robb's squire and Ser Raynald Westerling joins his retinue. When House Westerling joins House Stark in the War of the Five Kings, they bring fifty men, of whom only twelve are knights

House westering joined Robb after the wedding but brought little to the table.

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9 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Do we know how far along Jeyne could possibly be along her pregnancy? For all we know Sybell could have only told Jaime what he wanted to hear, Sybell might plan to give abortion drug to jeyne as a stark maybe is bad for the house unless someting happens?

We know this about lord westerling (Gawen)

Gawen likely had contact with jeyne after her marriage to Robb. Maybe he was happy for her? Maybe he was proud of her, for marryning up or something? We know that gawen was not involved in the honeypot plot as he was a captive of House Stark before the marriage.

House westering joined Robb after the wedding but brought little to the table.

Impossible to tell. Even if I could find the most accurate timeline to date, we still couldn't be sure of the conception date if they were married for more than a few weeks prior to the Red Wedding.

Given that Sybell was plotting with the Lannisters, and grew up in the Westerlands (old enough to possibly remember the destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks) I doubt she was lying about this. But I still like the idea that someone was on to her and pulled a switch.

So Gawen was free to possibly run interference. That's encouraging. I don't know House Spicer's words (if they have any) but Gawen was born a Westerling and their words are "Honor, not honors." I could definitely see him short-circuiting his wife's social climbing plans if he has even an ounce of belief in those words. Robb sacrificed his own honor to save Jeyne's. A loving father would at least appreciate that.

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I am a Jaime / Brienne shipper, but in theory, yes, I think Jaime could be atracted to any decent woman, if he had a chance to spend quality time with her. If he likes shyness and moral principles in women, Jeyne would be a good match for him. He was impressed by her already, although he played it down, like "pretty, but not worth losing a kingdom for" or something. He has a habit of denying he is interested. 

Jeyne certainly was not interested, she was immersed in her mourning and for her sake I hope her next husband will not be a Lannister.

But the question was not if they like each other but if they will wed and fulfill the prophecy that way. I think not, she is a small fish politically and they will have not much time together for non-political love interest to happen.

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