Dawn of Fyre

Aegon Targaryen, Sixth of his Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.

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Posted (edited)

I think Aegon VI could become one of the greatest kings that has ever ruled in Westeros. And whether or not he is a "true" Targaryen is a mute point; he has the right mindset, the right education, he has been starved and hunted, made to fend for himself, cook his own food, wash his own clothes, experience what being a peasant means in the world. And I, for one, would rather see him actually being the son of Rhaegar Targaryen than some false hope. I assume Varys would be able to prove that Aegon is who he says he is, with some evidence. Although, I also would not mind him being a descendant of the Blackfyres. It could be symbolic, him and Daenerys forming a strong bond, and finally ending the feud between the Targaryen and Blackfyre families.

And with Daenerys, Jon, and perhaps Aegon all being dragon-born, the prophecy that the "Dragon needs Three Heads" would be fulfilled. Although, I could see George making Tyrion into a secret Targaryen and having him be one of the three heads, which would subvert the trope where the main "heroes" are all beautiful and strong. Even with Jon-Daenerys-Aegon trio feeling more traditional in the aforementioned sense, I still feel that they would be better as dragon-riders. Maybe that's just me. Tyrion is a kinslayer, and I don't see how he would be able to serve in the regime should one of the above-mentioned three take the Iron Throne. From a political point of view, allowing Tyrion to murder his father and not punishing him would set a precedent, or seem hyp hypocritical.

What are you're thoughts? Would Aegon VI make a good king? Would Daenerys even allow him the chance? Or will he die tragically in some assassin plot or whatnot. I hope he survives. He has great potential, and he does not seem mad or cruel. He seems like a good bloke.

Edited by Dawn of Fyre

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Posted (edited)

I think he is hollow shell of meaningless charm of empty bravado being used as a figurehead for amoral, vindictive, ambitious and greedy people to ravage Westeros. After his supporters turn on each other and Dany roasts him for a fraud, Westeros will breath a sigh of relief.

Edited by The Sleeper

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Posted (edited)

The cyvasse incident is... concerning, but I suppose it could just be a one off. I'm re-reading aDwD at the moment so I don't remember all the details that I haven't yet got to. But to me, Aegon seems very average. Maybe in real life you couldn't hope for much more in a teenager, but in the story he doesn't compare favourably to Robb, for example. Of course Robb made a huge mistake, but it was a good chunk of bad luck that put him in the position to make that mistake in the first place. Robb at least had the benefit of growing up receiving practical lessons on how to lead and look after his people. Aegon will have had to stick to theory at best, and has grown up thinking he's a prince who is owed a million things who will one day be given the power he deserves. Humility for him is probably more a necessity to gain power, rather than a necessity for someone who holds power. His best feature is that he listens to those who know better than him, but he needs to have some good ideas of his own, too. All that said, I don't think it's totally fair to judge him yet - I'm probably reading too much into his mini-Joff tantrum.

Quote

"Bend down and pick up my chalice." Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. "Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?

Quote

Young Griff jerked to his feet and kicked over the board. Cyvasse pieces flew in all directions, bouncing and rolling across the deck of the Shy Maid. "Pick those up," the boy commanded.

 

Edited by Ser Petyr Parker

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Posted (edited)

We don't have to much to go on in terms of Aegon's personality, so it's hard to make projections about his potential as reigning monarch - but if the boy really is "the perfect prince", then why not?

It's probably safe to say that JonCon, as whimsical as he is when it comes to Rhaegar's memory, would have made sure Young Griff was raised to emulate his father's respected nature. We know of his education, focusing on all the trappings that come with a crown such as politics, religion and warfare, but does it not also seem likely that Illyrio's team would have tried their upmost to instill the values of honour, understanding and decency in the lad? What purpose would it serve to have the lad raised to be a bad guy? Most potential allies in Westeros remember Rhaegar as a heroic figure - those who don't subscribe to the "Kidnapper Dragon" theory anyhow - how many of those potential bannermen are going to believe Aegon is the real deal if he acts nothing like the way they imagine Rhaegar did?

Raising Aegon to be one of the good guys certainly has more benefits if the initial plan was indeed to set him up as an exiled hero come to oppose the evil Joffrey/Viserys/Dothraki Horde. 

 

3 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

He has great potential, and he does not seem mad or cruel. He seems like a good bloke.

Nice way to put it, and I tend to agree, yet being a nice person does not always mean one will be a good King, so this might not apply to much to his knowledge of poitics etc.

At this point it might be better to look at things from Aegons own perspective, that of a highly capable, handsome, teenaged orphan Prince living in exile. 

 The main arguments that he will turn out to be rather prickish seem to be the

  1. tipping over of the cyvasse board and commanding Tyrion cleans it up.
  2. his hesitation during the Stone Men incident, and petulant remarks about Tyrion bfore hand.
  3. being bored during his history lesson from Haldon,
  4. his apparent sense of entitlement concering Dany/the dragons/the IT
  5. Arriving late to Griff's solar in 
  6. his cocky insistence on leading the attack on Storm's End. All could be chalked up to the dogmatic nature of teenage folly.

These negative points to his character seem to occur gradually as the tale progresses, perhapr hinting towards the lad being corrupted over time, but can also be chalked up to the dogmatic nature of teenage growth. Looking at this form the boy's POV may prove helpful...

1. I'm sure most of us have had our own cyvasse tipping moments when we were younger as being a sore loser tends to be the first step toward being gracious in defeat and accepting loss as a learning process.

Looking at it from Aegon's point of view the loss must have been pretty deflating; he knows a war of conquest is looming and clearly Haldon taught him the subtext of Cyvasse, bitterness seems like a natural reaction - think how the teenage version of yourself might feel if you failed a mock exam a few weeks before you were due to sit the biggest test of your academic life! How does Tyrion secure this victory? "I lied, trust no one, and keep your dragons close" - he hustles the boy after spending the entire game trying to provoke a reaction - "there, that's made him good and angry".

2. Freezing in the face of grotesque, grey scale ridden attackers is understandable considering Aegon was caught off guard and doesn't seem to be a seasoned killer anyway. Keep in mind that Connington sent the boy below deck before the trouble started, only to be met with a torrent of complaints - all understandable as Aegon is 16-18 and had beaten Duck in practise just a few days before hand. How would you feel if your family were under attack and demanded you run and hide, regardless of your own martial abilities surpassing some of those who are staying behind? To me, this is a positive example of Aegon's vibes, as it wouldn't have been very honourable if he have kept his mouth shut and hid in one of Illyrio's chests. His bravery was hidden behind a wall of petulance - cleverly done by George, who clearly intended Young Aegon to be a hotheaded, changeable teenager - all the better to keep the readers guessing as to which side of the madness coin this Dragon will land on.

"You are a dwarf! Young Griff said scornfully" - and he has the right of it! He did not say "stunted little monster" or any of the usual insults Tyrion recieves, he simply stated the truth, that Tyrion's body type does not traditionally go hand in hand with combat, while Young Griff's does.

3. Being disrespectful to a teacher is common practise for teenage boys, especially if the teacher is a bit of a windbag, like Haldon seems to be. Yes, Aegon talks in a bored tone when asked to recount the post Doom history of Volantis, but keep in mind he correctly recites the full tale, indicating that he has great potential as a student.

4. Aegon's apparent entitlement when it comes to a potential marriage with Dany is brought on by Tyrion again stirring the pot - he broaches the subject by saying "assuming our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort". You can understand Aegon's expectancy of Dany choosing him - he may view her as his only living relative, and I doubt Illyrio and co would have instilled doubt that she would take him.

 5. In regards to Storm's End, maybe Aegon is just doing what he thinks Rhaegar would have done. Growing up in exile and hearing all of these stories about his father's tournament victories over Arthur and Barristan, his honourable nature and badass technique on his harp, it's understandable why Prince Aegon wants to get into the thick of things. Rhaegar, the notorious Rock Star of tragic tales; one could understand why his "son" would make rash decisions and want to be seen as inheriting his father's boldness. Aegon has already displayed Rhaegar-esque studious abilities, now is the time to put his combat skills to the test -  Rhaegar's bitersweet "It appears I am to be a warrior" retoric seems apt.

Again, this might not point to Aegon being a good ruler, but it certainly does not point towards him being a monster.

Edited by Leo of House Cartel

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We really have no idea how he will react to power if/when he becomes King of Westeros. He could start out as a good meaning-amiable King then turn into a tyrant. Power corrupts and all that ect. ect.

We do know that he will be indebted to people with dubious motives like Illyrio and Varys if/when he becomes King. That could become a problem.

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Without any leadership training or experience the kid would be on a steep learning curve. Westeros is in bad shape, and even with the best advisers it would need a strong and adaptable leader going forward. It's great that he's well-rounded, but knowing what it's like to be a commoner doesn't guarantee good political decision making (Aegon V being a prime example). 

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Nah. He's a dead man walking. That Varys' campaign speech, which you're paraphrasing in the first post? That's a kiss of death. That's an old cop's retirement plan. That's the photo of a young front-line soldier's fiancée. That's character in a mystery novel, exclaiming: "I know whodunit, I'm telling everyone tomorrow!". That's this guy.

So, no, Aegon VI won't be the greatest anything, and even if, then he won't be it for long. Sorry.

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55 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 That's an old cop's retirement plan. That's the photo of a young front-line soldier's fiancée. That's character in a mystery novel, exclaiming: "I know whodunit, I'm telling everyone tomorrow!". That's this guy.

So, no, Aegon VI won't be the greatest anything, and even if, then he won't be it for long. Sorry.

As someone who likes a good laugh I'll appreciate that old cop bit for as long as I post on these forums Ser, good form.

And Hot Shots, nice. 

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Nah. He's a dead man walking. That Varys' campaign speech, which you're paraphrasing in the first post? That's a kiss of death. That's an old cop's retirement plan. That's the photo of a young front-line soldier's fiancée. That's character in a mystery novel, exclaiming: "I know whodunit, I'm telling everyone tomorrow!". That's this guy.

So, no, Aegon VI won't be the greatest anything, and even if, then he won't be it for long. Sorry.

I think it is the speech "I am going to be the greatest there ever was" and then turns out to be a big flop. He has a straw hat meant to reference Egg and has Duck in place of Dunk, but the comparison falls short. Martin put more gravitas in ten year old Egg than eighteen year old Aegon.

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How big army can Aegon expect? He has the 10k GC, probably around 30k Dornish and if lords like Tarly defects he could get 30-40k from the Reach? Maybe a couple of thousands from the Crownlands? 

Am I overestimating when I say that Aegon could get a army around 70k? 

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11 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Would Aegon VI make a good king? Would Daenerys even allow him the chance? Or will he die tragically in some assassin plot or whatnot.

(1) No.  It's easy to seem nice when you're trained in manners.  But the temptations and exigencies of power are the real test of character.  Being a sore loser at a cyvasse (as pointed out above) is not a good sign of character (nor even ability).  It's the only evidence we have.

(2) Probably not.  She is after all the "slayer of lies"; and Aegon is not the real Aegon.  But even if Dany gives him a chance, GRRM will not.

(3) Dunno.  But one way or another, he's a goner.

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16 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

(1) No.  It's easy to seem nice when you're trained in manners.  But the temptations and exigencies of power are the real test of character.  Being a sore loser at a cyvasse (as pointed out above) is not a good sign of character (nor even ability).  It's the only evidence we have.

(2) Probably not.  She is after all the "slayer of lies"; and Aegon is not the real Aegon.  But even if Dany gives him a chance, GRRM will not.

(3) Dunno.  But one way or another, he's a goner.

That's interesting. I sense that people are on the side of Aegon being a fake and that he'll die in the next two books. I mean, it could happen. Or there could be a bigger plot that we're not aware of. Either way, I'm excited to see where he ends up.

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Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.

The Ugly Little Girl, Dance 64

The first head was Daenerys. The second head is Aegon. The third head will be Jon Snow. The middle head doesn't sound very auspicious. 

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Nobody is ever going to hate Aegon, just as nobody ever hated the Young Dragon. He is going to be a Targaryen king. And nobody hates Targaryen kings unless they are Maegor the Cruel. And even that guy is idolized and worshiped by some people here on the boards although we know he was nothing but a sadistic psychopath (which the people in Westeros actually do understand, making them actually smarter than some readers).

Even Aerys II still has his admirers, especially among the common people. Those same people will worship Aegon until they die. They won't blame Rhaegar's son for anything bad happening to them unless they actually see his the bad guy. And they won't see that since most of them are not living at court or in the capital.

Aegon will be idealized as a tragic young king who tried to do the best for his people and was murdered by traitors or died a heroic death.

Nobody is going to love Dany the way they will love Aegon simply because she is a woman. And Westeros doesn't want to be ruled by a woman. Nor will they love any woman who is going to turn against her own nephew, a man who has restored House Targaryen to the Iron Throne.

By the way - pretty much nobody hates Joffrey. They hate Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin, Varys, etc. - the people around the dashing young boy king - but they don't hate him because, you know, he is still a child.

As long as Aegon finds enough 'bad counselors' to blame for his mistakes - assuming he is going to make any (which is not that likely considering that he pretty smart) - his public image will remain as white as the freshly fallen snow he'll also have to deal with.

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25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody is ever going to hate Aegon, just as nobody ever hated the Young Dragon. He is going to be a Targaryen king. And nobody hates Targaryen kings unless they are Maegor the Cruel. And even that guy is idolized and worshiped by some people here on the boards although we know he was nothing but a sadistic psychopath (which the people in Westeros actually do understand, making them actually smarter than some readers).

Even Aerys II still has his admirers, especially among the common people. Those same people will worship Aegon until they die. They won't blame Rhaegar's son for anything bad happening to them unless they actually see his the bad guy. And they won't see that since most of them are not living at court or in the capital.

Aegon will be idealized as a tragic young king who tried to do the best for his people and was murdered by traitors or died a heroic death.

Nobody is going to love Dany the way they will love Aegon simply because she is a woman. And Westeros doesn't want to be ruled by a woman. Nor will they love any woman who is going to turn against her own nephew, a man who has restored House Targaryen to the Iron Throne.

By the way - pretty much nobody hates Joffrey. They hate Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin, Varys, etc. - the people around the dashing young boy king - but they don't hate him because, you know, he is still a child.

As long as Aegon finds enough 'bad counselors' to blame for his mistakes - assuming he is going to make any (which is not that likely considering that he pretty smart) - his public image will remain as white as the freshly fallen snow he'll also have to deal with.

An interesting thought! I don't think Aegon will be hated, not for who he is. From what we've seen thus far from his characterisation and actions, he seems to be well on his way in becoming a true threat for the Iron Throne, especially since he wants to marry Daenerys to consolidate power for House Targaryen. And since we can see allusions to his character arc in English history - during the War of the Rose or Hundred Year War, I believe one prince was smuggled out of the country and raised in exile, only to return and become king - this can also apply to Daenerys and Jon, which is interesting, no?

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody is ever going to hate Aegon, just as nobody ever hated the Young Dragon. He is going to be a Targaryen king. And nobody hates Targaryen kings unless they are Maegor the Cruel. And even that guy is idolized and worshiped by some people here on the boards although we know he was nothing but a sadistic psychopath (which the people in Westeros actually do understand, making them actually smarter than some readers).

Even Aerys II still has his admirers, especially among the common people. Those same people will worship Aegon until they die. They won't blame Rhaegar's son for anything bad happening to them unless they actually see his the bad guy. And they won't see that since most of them are not living at court or in the capital.

Aegon will be idealized as a tragic young king who tried to do the best for his people and was murdered by traitors or died a heroic death.

Nobody is going to love Dany the way they will love Aegon simply because she is a woman. And Westeros doesn't want to be ruled by a woman. Nor will they love any woman who is going to turn against her own nephew, a man who has restored House Targaryen to the Iron Throne.

By the way - pretty much nobody hates Joffrey. They hate Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin, Varys, etc. - the people around the dashing young boy king - but they don't hate him because, you know, he is still a child.

As long as Aegon finds enough 'bad counselors' to blame for his mistakes - assuming he is going to make any (which is not that likely considering that he pretty smart) - his public image will remain as white as the freshly fallen snow he'll also have to deal with.

Also, here is an excerpt from wikipedia on Henry Tudor - who was in exile before he returned to become king:

 

Many of Buckingham's defeated supporters and other disaffected nobles fled to join Henry Tudor in exile. Richard made an attempt to bribe the Duke of Brittany's chief Minister Pierre Landais to betray Henry, but Henry was warned and escaped to France, where he was again given sanctuary and aid.[47]

Confident that many magnates and even many of Richard's officers would join him, Henry set sail from Harfleur on 1 August 1485, with a force of exiles and French mercenaries. With fair winds, he landed in Pembrokeshire six days later. The officers Richard had appointed in Wales either joined Henry or stood aside. Henry gathered supporters on his march through Wales and the Welsh Marches, and defeated Richard at the Battle of Bosworth Field. Richard was slain during the battle, supposedly by the major Welsh landowner Rhys ap Thomas with a blow to the head from his poleaxe. Rhys was knighted three days later by Henry VII.

Henry, having been acclaimed King Henry VII, then strengthened his position by marrying Elizabeth of York, daughter of Edward IV and the best surviving Yorkist claimant. He thus reunited the two royal houses, merging the rival symbols of the red rose of Lancaster and the white rose of York into the new emblem of the red and white Tudor Rose. Henry shored up his position by executing all other possible claimants whenever any excuse was offered, a policy his son Henry VIII continued.

Many historians consider the accession of Henry VII to mark the end of the Wars of the Roses. Others argue that they continued to the end of the fifteenth century, as there were several plots to overthrow Henry and restore Yorkist claimants. Only two years after the Battle of Bosworth, Yorkists rebelled, led by John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln, who had been named by Richard III as his heir but had been reconciled with Henry after Bosworth. The conspirators produced a pretender to the throne, a boy named Lambert Simnel, who bore a close physical resemblance to the young Edward, Earl of Warwick (son of George of Clarence), the best surviving male claimant of the House of York. This plan was on very shaky ground, because the young earl was still alive and in King Henry's custody and was paraded through London to expose the impersonation. At the Battle of Stoke Field, Henry defeated Lincoln's army. Lincoln died in the battle. Simnel was pardoned for his part in the rebellion and was sent to work in the royal kitchens.

Henry's throne was again challenged in 1491 with the appearance of the pretender Perkin Warbeck, who claimed he was Richard, Duke of York (the younger of the two Princes in the Tower). Warbeck made repeated attempts to incite revolts, with support at various times from the court of Burgundy and James IV of Scotland. He was captured after the failed Second Cornish Uprising of 1497 and executed in 1499, after attempting to escape from prison.

During the reign of Henry VII's son Henry VIII, the possibility of Yorkist challenges to the throne remained until as late as 1525, in the persons of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham; Edmund de la Pole, 3rd Duke of Suffolk; and his brother Richard de la Pole, all of whom had blood ties to the Yorkist dynasty but were excluded by the pro-Woodville Tudor settlement. To an extent, England's break with Rome was prompted by Henry's fears of a disputed succession should he leave only a female heir to the throne, or an infant who would be as vulnerable as Henry VI had been to antagonistic or rapacious regents.

 

If we take George's word that he was influenced by historical events, then can we draw allusions from King Henry's life and apply it to Asoiaf? There do seem some similarities in his life and what has already happened, and what could happen.

*Edit - refer back to the bolded text* This could actually be evidence for the theory that Aegon is a pretender to the throne. It just occurred to me :o

Edited by Dawn of Fyre

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No chance. Young Griff is a kid who participated in a few peasant activities but never actually lived like one. He never went through any actual hardships, unlike Dany, for whom he is a foil to.

He doesn't seem like a bad kid, but you can see that his sheltered upbringing, and probably being told he's special his whole life, has made him naive and a bit of an arrogant turd, despite all the clothes washing he's done. His temper during the cyvasse game wasn't an indication of "Targ madness" I think, but a show of how immature he still he is compared to our other young protagonists.

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10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

No chance. Young Griff is a kid who participated in a few peasant activities but never actually lived like one. He never went through any actual hardships, unlike Dany, for whom he is a foil to.

He doesn't seem like a bad kid, but you can see that his sheltered upbringing, and probably being told he's special his whole life, has made him naive and a bit of an arrogant turd, despite all the clothes washing he's done. His temper during the cyvasse game wasn't an indication of "Targ madness" I think, but a show of how immature he still he is compared to our other young protagonists.

LOL, so you think any of our noble and royal characters would like it being tricked and deceived in a board game by an ugly dwarf when they were in a bad mood already?

Think again.

Nobody would have liked that. Joffrey would reacted very harshly, Robb most likely would have beaten or told the dwarf to defend himself (against some blunted swords, of course). Jon - a mere bastard - humiliated Tyrion when the man told him the truth about the NW, remember? That was a worse dick move than what Aegon did there.

Arya most likely would have been on the verge of treating Tyrion the way she treated Joffrey at the Ruby Ford. And the Stark children in general instinctively set their wolves on all those people that displeased or threatened them - we see this repeatedly in AGoT and ACoK. That is much worse than anything Aegon did. The boy actually had Jon Connington save Tyrion's life a short time ago.

Remember, we are talking about a youth in a bad mood who is continuously provoked and then actually tricked by the guy he plays with. He wants to have fun, he wants to win, and he wants to lighten his mood. He doesn't want to be tricked and humiliated. He reacts perfectly natural afterwards, and this is not some kind of key to Aegon's entire personality. If it was then we would have to say that Robb treating Tyrion badly when he came to help Bran is also the key to his personality - which it is not.

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25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If it was then we would have to say that Robb treating Tyrion badly when he came to help Bran is also the key to his personality - which it is not.

Robb was reacting to the attempted murder and permanent crippling of his little brother, for which Tyrion was a plausible suspect.  Young Griff was reacting to losing at chess.

Tyrion's self-pity when other's suspect him is always through the roof, even when the suspicions are reasonably justified by the known facts.  And it is not as though Robb wasn't willing to listen.

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10 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Robb was reacting to the attempted murder and permanent crippling of his little brother, for which Tyrion was a plausible suspect.  Young Griff was reacting to losing at chess.

That isn't an excuse for behaving like a child and being rude. If Tyrion had been involved in the whole thing he would have just given away that he suspected something.

If something tricked me the way Tyrion tricked Aegon while pretending to be my friend and giving me actual advice I'd also be pretty pissed. There is nothing wrong or strange about that. Anybody not reacting the way Aegon did should be considered a meek weakling by the standards of this world.

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