Damsel in Distress

Jon's bastard status.

36 posts in this topic

This is a continuation of my earlier topic.

I looked at every reasonable scenario and read many opinions from many forums.  Here are those scenarios.

  • Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  He was already married under Valyrian customs.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible that Brandon married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something that doesn't make sense but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was consummated and their children are the proof.  An annulment would not be legal without approval from Aerys. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

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Posted (edited)

Your verdict is still wrong. Every known product of Targ polygamy in the Iron Throne age has not only been legitimate, but has also eventually gone on to become king. Few examples as we have, there is zero support for the idea that Jon would be a bastard, and every support for the idea that he would be legitimate, as Aenys and Maegor were. You might as well suggest that there has never been a legitimate descendant of Aegon I.

/thread

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.

This is certainly true since the Faith of the Seven have been a force in Westeros.  But GRRM has many other examples of polygamy outside of the Faith and before Andal invasion.  And indeed outside of Westerosi culture...... 

First Men/Ironborn/Wildlings

Florys the Fox had three husbands -- Garland II 'The Bridegroom' Greenhand had multiple wives --  Storm King Ronard 'The Bastard' had twenty three wives -- The Ironborn with their Rock wives and Salt wives -- Craster and his multiple wives -- Ygon Oldfather had 18 wives

Essos

Sallodhor Saan has multiple wives -- Khal Jommo took 4 wives -- Cleon the Great had multiple wives -- Emperor Choq Choq had 100 wives -- Khiara the Great had 2 husbands.

Valyria

The Dragonlords had more than 1 wife when it pleased them -- Aenar Targaryen took multiple wives -- You've mentioned his son Aegon and his two sister wives -- Maegor the Cruel had multiple wives [although the Faith stepped, the first time they did I think] 

                                                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Dragonlords and Targaryen's in particular are famous for their polygamy and it is not outside the realms of possibility that the Targ's may consider this something of an option after Maegor.  George again reminds us of this in the text when he has Jorah suggest Dani take more than one husband in ASOS Dani chapter 8.  He suggests it might be a possible meaning of the 'Dragon has three heads' [Maybe he thought he could get in on the act :P

Whatever the case may be, it seems to me that the polygamous door has been left wide open in the text if one was to ignore the Faith's restrictions.  Which in turn leaves the door open for George to play with this line of thinking, and gives him options regards Rhaegar.  GRRM has actually spoken about polygamy in asoiaf, saying the following.......

Quote

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

Perhaps Rhaegar saw the need of the Prince that was Promised as out weighing any misgivings the Faith of the Seven had about polygamy, something essential and as powerful as having a dragon, something that will ultimately save Westeros etc.  Rhaegar certainly seemed convinced that the prophecy needed to be fulfilled, and he was a Targ after all.

In conclusion, there's no way I can prove you wrong in your assertion that Jon is a bastard, but I think it worth consideration that George has on many occasions, throughout both the novels and world book, given examples of polygamy and therefore a precedent has been set.  Whether the story goes this route is anyone's guess, but it's definitely an option if the author wants to go there.  :) 

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3 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

This is a continuation of my earlier topic.

I looked at every reasonable scenario and read many opinions from many forums.  Here are those scenarios.

  • Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon
  • Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon
  • Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  He was already married under Valyrian customs.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible that Brandon married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something that doesn't make sense but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was consummated and their children are the proof.  An annulment would not be legal without approval from Aerys. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

All very good points.  Jon is a bastard.  I do agree and support your conclusion.

The most interesting pairing to me is Mance + Lyanna = Jon.  The only argument against it is the timeline and we know those timelines are not precise enough to rule this out.  We do not know for certain when Jon was born.  He could have been born much earlier than we thought and Lyanna died from the still birth of a second child. 

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He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Far away,” Ser Gerold Said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the seige,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Sir Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Then as now you have completely ignored the Tower of Joy scene and failed to provide a reason as to what the three kingsguard were firstly doing there and what their intentions were. Ned is puzzled where they have been and does not understand why they are there at the Tower of Joy guarding Lyanna. He doesn't understand why this comes to blows and the cause they continue to fight for. The only plausible explanation I have heard so far is if they believe Jon is the current King (or at least the very least heir) of the seven kingdoms.

 

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, Makk said:

Then as now you have completely ignored the Tower of Joy scene and failed to provide a reason as to what the three kingsguard were firstly doing there and what their intentions were. Ned is puzzled where they have been and does not understand why they are there at the Tower of Joy guarding Lyanna. He doesn't understand why this comes to blows and the cause they continue to fight for. The only plausible explanation I have heard so far is if they believe Jon is the current King (or at least the very least heir) of the seven kingdoms.

Let's dig deeper with the "why": not only why are the white cloaks at the ToJ, but, maybe more importantly, why do they seem so incredibly proud of the fact? Why they - looks like it - consider being at the Tower of Joy, the most honorable thing, and the fulfillment of their Kingsguard oaths? And Ned, the lawful good Ned, considered them "a marvel, a shining lesson to the world".

To hammer the lesson home, GRRM decided to make the ToJ confrontation not a one on one event (Ned versus the single last surviving knight of the Kingsguard), but seven versus three. And all three kept guard at the ToJ, not splitting the team, not sparing even a single knight of the Kingsguard for Viserys. They must have had some darn good reason to do so - and the OP's "verdict" just ignores the issue.

But at least it examines the silly concepts of Mance Rayder + Lyanna and Brandon + Lyanna (sadly, for some reason, omits Olenna Tyrell + Ashara Dayne).

Edited by Ferocious Veldt Roarer

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8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Your verdict is still wrong. Every known product of Targ polygamy in the Iron Throne age has not only been legitimate, but has also eventually gone on to become king. Few examples as we have, there is zero support for the idea that Jon would be a bastard, and every support for the idea that he would be legitimate, as Aenys and Maegor were. You might as well suggest that there has never been a legitimate descendant of Aegon I.

/thread

 Polygamy is not legal and not accepted.  Yes, Aegon had multiple wives but that happened under Valyrian customs before he conquered westeros.  The situations of Aenys and Maegor are different. 

The great bastards only became legit because the sitting king, Aegon IV, legitimized them.  And that was not widely accepted.  No way King Aerys the Second would legitimize Lyanna's children.  As a matter of fact, he would close the doors on any possibility of them ever becoming heirs to the throne.  He would prevent them from becoming legit.  It is already known that he disinherited Rhaegar's line and passed the inheritance to Prince Viserys.  That ends any and all future claims that Rhaegar's line may have had in addition to them having permanent bastard status. 

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Posted (edited)

28 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

 Polygamy is not legal and not accepted.  Yes, Aegon had multiple wives but that happened under Valyrian customs before he conquered westeros.  The situations of Aenys and Maegor are different. 

The great bastards only became legit because the sitting king, Aegon IV, legitimized them.  And that was not widely accepted.  No way King Aerys the Second would legitimize Lyanna's children.  As a matter of fact, he would close the doors on any possibility of them ever becoming heirs to the throne.  He would prevent them from becoming legit.  It is already known that he disinherited Rhaegar's line and passed the inheritance to Prince Viserys.  That ends any and all future claims that Rhaegar's line may have had in addition to them having permanent bastard status. 

But Aenys was still the accepted king and his children after him were considered legitimate so why does it matter that the marriage took place before the war? Aenys hadn't been born until after the conquest, right? Why was he still accepted as king? Aegon still accepted Aenys as his heir even after Maegors birth....   

Also was it ever confirmed that Aerys had officially disinherited Rhaegar? I agree that had he lived for a few more years - maybe even a few more months, Aerys most likely would have done just that...but i dont think it was ever official.

As another poster has already stated: Why would the Kingsguard abandon Willem Darry and co to defend Jon? 

Edited by Aemon Darkbrother
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17 minutes ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

As another poster has already stated: Why would the Kingsguard abandon Willem Darry and co to defend Jon? 

1 - we do not know if there was a Jon there ...

2 - the KG cunts were barring access to Lyanna as she would rat out all the raping that went on in the ToJ, with them holding Lyanna down while Rheagar impregnated her.

After she was carrying they probably "used her" themselves.

If she got to speak with Ned they were dead anyway. Hence their denial of access.

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There's a glaring flaw in argument that the KG must have been at the TOJ because baby Jon was King. It's built on the premise that the KG follows and protects only (or primarily) the King. But if this is so, why didn't they abandon Rhaegar and head back to King's Landing as soon as they knew war was breaking out? Or when Rhaegar died (Aerys was still alive at that point)? Or when Rhaella crowned Viserys?

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4 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

There's a glaring flaw in argument that the KG must have been at the TOJ because baby Jon was King. It's built on the premise that the KG follows and protects only (or primarily) the King. But if this is so, why didn't they abandon Rhaegar and head back to King's Landing as soon as they knew war was breaking out? Or when Rhaegar died (Aerys was still alive at that point)? Or when Rhaella crowned Viserys?

No such assumption is made, in fact quite the contrary. I am assuming they protect the royal family prioritizing from the king down to the next most important. However obviously Aerys II was a period of great instability thanks to him literally being mad. It was clearly demonstrated that none of them actually wanted to protect Aerys

Quote

 

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

 

They had witnessed his irrationalities. They had witnessed him rape and hurt his wife. They had witnessed him burn people to death for no good reason. These are guys like Barristan who have an almost fatalistic sense of honour who hated serving Aerys.

But they were all proud guys who wanted to stick to their vows. They were looking for a way to do that with honour (which could not involve Aerys). The more pragmatic guys like Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent were Rhaegars close friends and you could possibly make an argument that they would reluctantly do whatever Rhaegar ordered them to do, even if it was to guard his mistress and bastard child. But not Gerold Hightower. And there was no reluctance at all in their words. There was pride and purpose. They completely believed what they were doing.

They wouldn't yield Lyanna and Jon to Ned even though they almost certainly knew that was who they would be safest with. Why is that? Because Jon, although he would be safe with Ned, would never be King.

Out of curiosity what do you believe they are doing there? None of the people who claim Jon was born a bastard have ever offered up even the slightest hint of a good suggestion.

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12 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:
  • Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon
  • Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

wait? what? where do these 2 comes from?

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1 hour ago, Makk said:

No such assumption is made, in fact quite the contrary. I am assuming they protect the royal family prioritizing from the king down to the next most important. However obviously Aerys II was a period of great instability thanks to him literally being mad. It was clearly demonstrated that none of them actually wanted to protect Aerys

They had witnessed his irrationalities. They had witnessed him rape and hurt his wife. They had witnessed him burn people to death for no good reason. These are guys like Barristan who have an almost fatalistic sense of honour who hated serving Aerys.

But they were all proud guys who wanted to stick to their vows. They were looking for a way to do that with honour (which could not involve Aerys). The more pragmatic guys like Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent were Rhaegars close friends and you could possibly make an argument that they would reluctantly do whatever Rhaegar ordered them to do, even if it was to guard his mistress and bastard child. But not Gerold Hightower. And there was no reluctance at all in their words. There was pride and purpose. They completely believed what they were doing.

They wouldn't yield Lyanna and Jon to Ned even though they almost certainly knew that was who they would be safest with. Why is that? Because Jon, although he would be safe with Ned, would never be King.

They can't stick to their vows and not protect the King. I mean, they're called the Kingsguard. That's their primary function.

And Gerold Hightower, who said "You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him" after seeing Aerys torture Rickard and Brandon to death, would have no problem continuing to serve under Aerys. If the KG's loyalties are based on a hierarchy, with the King as no.1, as you say, Gerold should have returned to KL, as Aerys was his priority, and then Rhaegar, then baby Aegon.

There's also the question of why none of them went to DS when Rhaella crowned Viserys.

1 hour ago, Makk said:

Out of curiosity what do you believe they are doing there? None of the people who claim Jon was born a bastard have ever offered up even the slightest hint of a good suggestion.

I'm pretty sure many people have brought up that it's been established that the KG service extends to the entire royal family, at the behest of the King. This would mean they take orders from all members from the royal family, so long as it doesn't contradict the King's. You don't have to agree or like this explanation, but don't pretend no one's suggested this or that isn't plausible. It's at least based on established world building, and not entirely speculative, like the idea that the KG work on a hierarchical basis.

I also think they were there out of loyalty to Rhaegar, but I don't think that's mutually exclusive with what I said above.

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7 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

There's a glaring flaw in argument that the KG must have been at the TOJ because baby Jon was King. It's built on the premise that the KG follows and protects only (or primarily) the King. But if this is so, why didn't they abandon Rhaegar and head back to King's Landing as soon as they knew war was breaking out?

Because they mostly were at the king's side already, for starters. Five out of seven knights of the Kingsguard were with the king.

7 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Or when Rhaegar died (Aerys was still alive at that point)?

Might be that the news of the Trident didn't reach them before the news of King's Landing.

7 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Or when Rhaella crowned Viserys?

That is exactly the point of the argument! Their duty was to protect the king, not a single one of them was with Viserys or on his way to Viserys, what conclusions should we draw from that?

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That is exactly the point of the argument! Their duty was to protect the king, not a single one of them was with Viserys or on his way to Viserys, what conclusions should we draw from that?

That they were playing fast and lose with their vows?

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3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

That they were playing fast and lose with their vows?

...and still they're full of righteous Kingsguard pride, and still Ned admires the shit out of them? Seems inconsistent.

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21 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began. He was already married under Valyrian customs. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

Note the bolded, please - WAS and IS precedent. So, technically, polygamy is still on the table; the problem is that the present day Targs may not have the power to force the issue, but this doesn't mean they cannot at least try. Especially when their incestuous marriages keep defying convention, the Faith and the opnions of the other lords just fine.

 

21 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Making new threads to repeat your opinion doesn't make it any more valid.

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

...and still they're full of righteous Kingsguard pride, and still Ned admires the shit out of them? Seems inconsistent.

Pick any of the following, multiple answer possible:

1 - Ned was not the brightest bloke in the 7K's

2 - he did not know the whole story

3 - parents lying to children as an educational measure is a time honoured tradition

4 - the KG did not see through their own shit and saw themselves as "TrOO kniggets"

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6 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

 

Pick any of the following, multiple answer possible:

1 - Ned was not the brightest bloke in the 7K's

2 - he did not know the whole story

3 - parents lying to children as an educational measure is a time honoured tradition

4 - the KG did not see through their own shit and saw themselves as "TrOO kniggets"

Uninformed as Ned might be, he's still our most important window into Jon Snow's pedigree and what went down by the Tower of Joy. To go along with your explanation, we must assume that the biggest, most prominent (and sometimes - the only) clues in the first five books were left to us by the author to just dismiss.

Nope. That's what I call a "bad" explanation.

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16 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

They can't stick to their vows and not protect the King. I mean, they're called the Kingsguard. That's their primary function.

And Gerold Hightower, who said "You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him" after seeing Aerys torture Rickard and Brandon to death, would have no problem continuing to serve under Aerys. If the KG's loyalties are based on a hierarchy, with the King as no.1, as you say, Gerold should have returned to KL, as Aerys was his priority, and then Rhaegar, then baby Aegon.

There's also the question of why none of them went to DS when Rhaella crowned Viserys.

And you think Hightower liked seeing that? He was almost certainly revolted. Fighting his internal fight (that GRRM loves) between his vows and doing what any sane person would consider the right thing. And then he is sent to bring Rhaegar back, and Rhaegar effectively offers him a way out. A way to keep his vows and not be an instrument of a mad and evil king. Rhaegar was intending to sort the situation out after the war and in as gentle a manner as possible remove his crazy and completely unsuitable father from power.

16 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm pretty sure many people have brought up that it's been established that the KG service extends to the entire royal family, at the behest of the King. This would mean they take orders from all members from the royal family, so long as it doesn't contradict the King's. You don't have to agree or like this explanation, but don't pretend no one's suggested this or that isn't plausible. It's at least based on established world building, and not entirely speculative, like the idea that the KG work on a hierarchical basis.

I also think they were there out of loyalty to Rhaegar, but I don't think that's mutually exclusive with what I said above.

If they weren't married, as you claim, then they are not a family. Now I am sure you are going to claim a precedent of the kingsguard have in the past also protected mistresses and bastards, although I suspect these were of the king and not their heirs. Anyhow, just who were they protecting Lyanna and Jon from? Ned the childkilling, kinslaying northman? No. There was never any danger to the lives of Lyanna and Jon from Ned, in fact Lyanna and Jon would be much safer with Ned than anyone else. Their manner of speech also completely belies your suggestion. Now it begins. They were had pride and purpose. They weren't just their to protect his life, they were there to protect the Targaryen lineage and his right to the throne. 

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