Why do Lannisters have a reputation as a "villain family"?

[Universal Sword Donor]

31 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Just because Jaime is not going around pushing innocent kids out windows and murdering men to teach people lessons doesn't automatically redeem him. 

Like I said, Jaime fans miss me with the bullshit about him being a better person or on a redemption arc, don't try to sell me the bullshit cause I ain't buying it. So he's suppose to get praise for "minimizing" damage after all the destruction he and his family caused during the war, really, REALLY? Jaime doesn't give a fuck about the kingdom, he has shown disregard for Westeros and its people many times so again miss me with the idea that Jaime was trying to save the kingdom from any more war. He would have gladly set the Freys loose on Riverrun in AFFC the only reason he tried to minimize any war is because he doesn't have two hands anymore. Jaime is a self serving piece of shit throughout all of AFFC. Don't try to tell me he's doing good or changing when all I see is him going from A to B to further the Lannisters' evil cause. Don't tell me he has changed when he's spent one sentence on any remorse for Bran or in Jaime's words "that boy in Winterfell" Don't tell me he's changed when he boldly stands in front of many men, women, and children who have all suffered many many times because of Jaime and his family. So no Jaime has not changed. 

Jaime spent most of the war in a cell or on the run. Damage caused doesn't mean he caused it.

But I do appreciate your "Don't tell me he's changed because I've made up my mind he hasn't." It's a nuanced, well thought out view that completely appreciates the character development and direct POV thoughts and actions we get.

By the way, a redemption arc means it's not an immediate 180. It takes time to complete. Just wanted to make sure we're all using the same definition here.

[Darksnider05]

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Jaime spent most of the war in a cell or on the run. Damage caused doesn't mean he caused it.

But I do appreciate your "Don't tell me he's changed because I've made up my mind he hasn't." It's a nuanced, well thought out view that completely appreciates the character development and direct POV thoughts and actions we get.

By the way, a redemption arc means it's not an immediate 180. It takes time to complete. Just wanted to make sure we're all using the same definition here.

That damage caused is all his though from humping his sister.  What are you talking about?

[Lion of the West]

2 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

That damage caused is all his though from humping his sister.  What are you talking about?

Which wouldn't have lead to war if Robert, Cersei, Tywin, Catelyn, Robb, Littlefinger, Varys and others had not acted the way they did. Many people had at various points the oppertunity to prevent the problem from ever happening and Jamie is but one of several people that can be charged with guilt.

[DominusNovus]

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

But what about Joanna's parenting style then? Just after her death Cersei was sadistic enough to torture her baby brother and treat her servants like trash. As 9 years old girl, up to which point she still had her decent mother to raise her. Also Jaime at that age was inseparable from Cersei and hence received absolutely the same upbringing as his sister did, yet, as far as we know, the difference between the twins was like night and day. Why is that, if Cersei's flaws are a result of Tywin's poor parenting?

For me it's really simple - Cersei is completely devoid of empathy, she has a legit mental disorder, and people are born with such disorders, they are not raised like that.

All I'm saying is that her upbringing did little to quell her bad instincts and everything to encourage them. From the way you're arguing, upbringing plays no role.

[The Sunland Lord]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Every lord of westeros is a tyrant-dictator. That's the system they have in place. That is, unless you support a system in which nobles can have trials (which the better fighters always win), while commoners can not, where there is zero democracy and you can get yourself killed if you do not die or work for your lord as he commands. Ned was a decent guy for his time, but let's not pretend the Starks are some kind of philantropists in Westeros.

Well I guess I tried to soften the image of Lord Tywin a bit unintentionally.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Darksnider05 said:

That damage caused is all his though from humping his sister.  What are you talking about?

If you're going to say that, then you have to give Aerys credit for saving all of KL from himself and Rossart. After all he appointed Jaime KG and Jaime stopped the wildfire plot!

[John Doe]

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If you're going to say that, then you have to give Aerys credit for saving all of KL from himself and Rossart. After all he appointed Jaime KG and Jaime stopped the wildfire plot!

And don't forget how Ned caused the war of the five kings by helping Robert gain the throne1

[Darksnider05]

43 minutes ago, John Doe said:

And don't forget how Ned caused the war of the five kings by helping Robert gain the throne1

 

What are you talking about the act of committing adultery with the Queen is high treason.  Are you trying to say this wasn't the main cause of everything that happened in G.o.T?  It's a direct result of their affair, nothing happens without it. 

[Nevets]

6 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

 

What are you talking about the act of committing adultery with the Queen is high treason.  Are you trying to say this wasn't the main cause of everything that happened in G.o.T?  It's a direct result of their affair, nothing happens without it. 

And without the intervening actions of Littlefinger, Varys, Tywin, and Cersei, among others, the worst thing that would have happened was Bran being flung from a window.  Which, while bad, is hardly cataclysmic.

And Jaime is definitely a different person than he was at the start of the books.  I cannot imagine the man Catelyn released sending Brienne to find Sansa to keep her safe from his sister; or working as hard as he did to end the siege of Riverrun without bloodshed, for example.  This Jaime actually cares about what happens to other people.  I'm not sure the old Jaime did.

To respond to the OP, the Lannisters are regarded as villains because they are.  At least Tywin and his descendants, who are the face of the family, are villains, or at the least, seriously ethically and morally challenged.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

Jaime has changed from a narcissist who enjoyed being adored by Cersei, to a narcissist who has realized Cersei does not adore him, and who is now reviving an old dream of being adored by the public at large.  But there is a huge difference between wanting to be SEEN as good, and wanting to actually BE good.  And we can see in his confrontation with Lancel that he craves the former, but has contempt for the latter.

Which does not necessarily mean it might not be part of a redemption arc.  There's an old story, from I forget where, about a wicked-faced villain who puts on the mask of a saint to woo a virtuous woman he is in love with.  After some time passes, a rival for the woman's affections seeks to expose him for what he is by pulling his mask off in front of her ... only to find, underneath the saint mask, the face of a saint.

But I anticipate no such twist.  I still just see a narcissist.

Narcissism is putting yourself first and foremost. Other than ditching Cersei to her fate -- one thing I think everyone here can agree is a healthy life choice -- he spends all of AFFC and ADWD saving people needless deaths, making expeditious, fortuitous deals, and regretting his father's legacy just to get back to his son. I'd be lying if I didn't say most people see the Frey (and lesser the Backen) disdain as part of Jaime's redemption arc. Hating the Freys is an emotional heart string being tugged.

But his behavior is pretty much well on its way to being a 180 from AGoT, when he was the quintessential HS jock everyone hates. 

[Apoplexy]

19 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Jaime craves admiration.  Formerly he was satisfied with Cersei's admiration; now he seeks to replace it from other sources.  You don't have to call that "narcissism" if you don't want to, but it is still a fundamentally selfish desire.

Most of what you describe above is pure calculation.  "Saving people needless death" means he does not commit gratuitous murders that are counterproductive to whatever he is trying to achieve.

Jaime certainly craves adoration, but I don't see that as a flaw. Because it's not just the need for adoration that drives him. He wants to do good and deserve the adoration. The fact that he hasn't told many people about Aerys wanting to burn down Kings Landing shows that admiration from others isn't Jaime's biggest concern. Sure, he was too proud to defend himself in that scenario, but saving lives was probably more important to him than glory.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

21 hours ago, The Wolves said:

No. This is a disgusting justification for Jaime committing a evil act. 

There is nothing in the books that says that Bran had to be pushed from a tower, his back broken and traumatized for life for his genetic gift to set in. We don't know Bran's role in saving the world and him so let's not assume anything at all. Bran having a near death experience was not needed as far as we know so no that monster who carelessly threw him from a tower does not get praise for what Bran has been capable of his whole life. Bran sure as hell should not be thanking the man who ruined his life and countless thousands(yes Jaime helped start TWot5Ks). 

And miss me with that man made b!tch so called turn around. What turn around? You mean when he was in the Riverlands stealing Riverrun from the Tullys and rewarding the men who slaughtered thousands of unarmed men? Or when he called his inbreed bastard son the rightful king knowing damn well he was a illegitimate bastard who had no right to the throne? What turn around in AFFC? Are you talking about the part where he went around gathering child hostages in the name of his bastard false king and he straight looked at these men and women who he had brought war to for something he and his had no right let alone cares about? Someone show me the passage, page number, paragraph, context, etc where Jaime Lannister had a turn around . 

Kevan Lannister did evil things on Tywin's orders like setting the Riverlands ablaze, lasting Gregor loose, and other things. He willingly served a very evil man and for following him blindly and unquestionably he is a villain for that IMO. 

Think logically for a minute about the Bran situation, Jaime aside. If it was possible for Bloodraven to contact Bran without his having been unconscious, don't you think that would have happened? Bloodraven is the most powerful greenseer for hundreds of years, and has been looking for Bran for decades. If it would have been possible to reach Bran sooner, he would have.

Sure it's important to establish that this isn't a nice, sweet story right at the beginning. And yes we want to make sure everyone understands off the bat that Jaime Lannister is a despicable person. But is it really necessary to break the kid's back and put him in a coma for no other reason? The fall itself could have given him amnesia, so him not remembering could easily have been covered without that. The coma would have been enough without taking his legs away permanently. So either there's a point or the author is just one sick man. 

We don't know Bran's role in saving the world so let's not assume anything? We know that he HAS a role. We know that it's a role no one else can fill. We know the only other person who could fill it has already lived past his own lifespan, and since he's in this series he's probably marked for death.

I'm not defending Jaime's pushing Bran. I'm saying Bran may see things his own way in the future. You may have noticed that you and I are not characters in the story. What we think of Jaime has no bearing on what Bran thinks or does.

The Tullys rose in rebellion and lost Riverrun. It sucks but Jaime was not "stealing" it from them. You're arguing against a reality of the setting.If you are on the losing side, you will lose things like your castles. Doesn't matter whether the king on the throne is legitimate or not. Doesn't matter if the loss was fair or not. It just is.

Yes he allowed his son to claim the throne. Not doing so would have been going against his own family. No one in this series is expected to go against their own family. Even Ned technically courted a treason charge by hiding a Targaryen baby in his own home, because the kid was family. And if Ned did that for a nephew, how do you fault Jaime for not denouncing his own sons? By the way, if you're going to go on about how awful Joffrey was you should perhaps consider the author's statement that Joffrey was merely a spoiled 13 year old boy given too much power. Joffrey would have grown up at some point. Quite frankly, since the kid was under age, he shouldn't have had any power and that falls on his regent, Cersei, and his Hand, Tywin.

If you have a problem with child hostages I'm afraid you'll have to turn in your middle ages time-travel card and denounce poor Ned Stark as a villain for taking Theon from Pyke. It's not a nice custom, but it's standard. If Stannis had been on the throne do you think he wouldn't have ordered his men to take hostages of the children of all the houses that sided against him? But sure, blame one guy for something everybody in his class did.

The evidence if you're unwilling to consider anything else, is in sending Brienne to find Sansa and keep her safe, which may be the only disloyalty Jaime's ever shown to his family. He knows that Cersei wants Sansa dead. But he made a promise to Catelyn, and he's going to make sure it's kept. The Jaime in AGoT wouldn't have done that. He'd have forgotten the promise as soon as he made it. The Jaime in AGoT never would have told Brienne the real reason he killed Aerys II either. He's not going to become the hero, or faultless, but he's certainly less of a villain than he started out.

Kevan was not setting the Riverlands ablaze, that was Clegane and his men. Gregor Clegane took his orders directly from Tywin. And again, Tywin was Kevan's own brother. Time and again in this series the importance (superficially in some cases) of family loyalty is emphasized, yet you expect characters to go against it because they supposedly know that the guy in charge is evil? Do you think Tywin routinely told Kevan about all of the real reasons for his worst plots? Of course not. He would have told Kevan what they were doing was necessary for the security of the realm and the safety of the most people, or the safety of everyone long-term. You don't get to be at Tywin's level of villainy by being an idiot who admits to being evil.

Kevan is the only person who expresses shock at Joffrey's idea of giving Robb's head to Sansa. Kevan is the one who tells Cersei she has to name him regent as well if she wants him to be Hand (something Tywin never did) because she's incompetent. Kevan is the only one in the family who believes the rumors about Jaime and Cersei. Kevan refuses to add his own troops to the siege at Riverrun. Kevan is in the process of stabilizing the government when he's murdered for being too good at doing so. If not for Tywin overpowering and overshadowing him, Kevan could have been a very good leader, and a very good man as well. In spite of Tywin's influence, Kevan still is a fairly decent guy. If the worst you can say of him is that he has been loyal to his family, then he's better than 75% of the characters in the series.

And if you're so set on dividing characters into black and white, then you're reading the wrong series.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Narcissism is putting yourself first and foremost. Other than ditching Cersei to her fate -- one thing I think everyone here can agree is a healthy life choice -- he spends all of AFFC and ADWD saving people needless deaths, making expeditious, fortuitous deals, and regretting his father's legacy just to get back to his son. I'd be lying if I didn't say most people see the Frey (and lesser the Backen) disdain as part of Jaime's redemption arc. Hating the Freys is an emotional heart string being tugged.

But his behavior is pretty much well on its way to being a 180 from AGoT, when he was the quintessential HS jock everyone hates. 

Best comment on the thread. 

[White Ravens]

Never mind.

[Aegon1FanBoy]

Yea as everyone said its basically Tywin. I mean even when he was hand people were staying he was constantly trying to over step himself that why he was "cursed" with Tyrion. Other than Aerys he really does have the most atrocities to his name in recent times as a Lord. Look at the two Lords before him the Lannisters weren't viewed as such when they rules, although Tytos make them weak. 

Then you have his kids that really don't help i mean Jamie alone was a walking abomination good as his reasons are a KG that kills his own king come on.

everyone knows what cersi was

Tyrion well born a dwarf fate was sealed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Best comment on the thread. 

Lol no one likes Cersei

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

Jaime craves admiration.  Formerly he was satisfied with Cersei's admiration; now he seeks to replace it from other sources.  You don't have to call that "narcissism" if you don't want to, but it is still a fundamentally selfish desire.

Most of what you describe above is pure calculation.  "Saving people needless death" means he does not commit gratuitous murders that are counterproductive to whatever he is trying to achieve.

Craving acceptance is not narcissism. It's a normal part of social activity. Humans are social creatures.

Mayo Clinic: Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

Granted that is clinical definition but it's pretty much the diametric of what we see of Jaime post hand loss

[Dofs]

8 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Jaime craves admiration.  Formerly he was satisfied with Cersei's admiration; now he seeks to replace it from other sources.  You don't have to call that "narcissism" if you don't want to, but it is still a fundamentally selfish desire.

Jaime dislikes being hated and wants people to like him. What a selfish, monstrous, narcissistic desire! 

[Apoplexy]

2 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Craving adoration isn't (necessarily) a flaw, but it is not a virtue either.  And that is the only shift anyone has shown - that he has stopped craving Cersei's adoration, and now seeks it from other sources.

His pride-filled refusal to tell anyone about the ticking time bomb under King's Landing (which will ultimately result in major tragedy) proves nothing in his favor.  And it dates from the time that he was satisfied with Cersei's adoration.  He was happy (at the time) to belong to the Jaime & Cersei mutual admiration club.

I am by no means arguing that Jaime is a saint, far from it. He has certainly committed some really questionable acts. But his motives have not always been selfish.

We don't know for sure there will be a major tragedy. Maybe he should've ensured that KL got rid of all the wildfire, but I'm guessing he left that to the pyromancers. He had other things on his mind.

Jaime and Cersei have had a long relationship. As gross as it was, they lived in a world where the monarchs married brother and sister, so it is quite believable he didn't think there was anything wrong with it. And a lot of people are engrossed with just their spouse/partner/family.

[Dofs]

On 22/08/2017 at 5:02 PM, DominusNovus said:

All I'm saying is that her upbringing did little to quell her bad instincts and everything to encourage them. From the way you're arguing, upbringing plays no role.

Cersei is a special case. She requires a specifically designed upbringing for people like her. Upbringing that not only Tywin couldn't give, but also Joanna. And I doubt anyone in the story would have. Hence I don't really put a blame on Tywin for Cersei.

3 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Craving adoration isn't (necessarily) a flaw, but it is not a virtue either.  And that is the only shift anyone has shown - that he has stopped craving Cersei's adoration, and now seeks it from other sources.

From where is this "craving adoration" coming from? From his childhood dream of becoming like Arthur Dayne or from where?