Why do Lannisters have a reputation as a "villain family"?

[SerMudz]

18 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Jaime does not have one arc, he has multiple. Before I also disagreed with people who claimed that Jaime had a redemption arc but after thinking about it I decided that he does have one, it's just his character is not solely about it. You can't analyse Jaime only through the lenses of him having a redemption arc or not.

 No, it's not the line from the chapter you are claiming it to be. It's the line from the chapter when he threatened to trebuchet Edmure's baby, spoken in front of Edmure so that later he would not call his bluff. 

No, it's the line spoken to the Frey who keeps making threats to hang Edmure but not carrying them out. It's supposed to tell you Jaime doesn't make idle threats so that when he later threatens to trebuchet Edmures baby you know he's serious. He absolutely would have carried that threat out, he just hoped to god he wouldn't have to.

I have to say though it really does annoy me when people try to claim his actions in Kings Landing when he slew Aerys were self preservation. I tend to think people who make these claims are just in denial because they otherwise they can't have read the books properly. We all read Jaime's chapters, his thoughts and they clearly establish that he killed Aerys because he didn't want any more orders leaving the Red Keep to burn the city down. You HAVE to accept that as fact unless you think Jaime just lies to himself with his own thoughts. He also deserves none of the blame for the raping of Elia and murder of her  children. He had enough on his plate where he was and back then can't have known what was going to happen to then. No one knew what the Mountain's true nature was back then he was a new Knight and he didn't know what orders Tywin had given. He was a 15 year old kid who deserves nothing but praise for what he did that day. He willingly vilified himself for the rest of his life by breaking his oath and did so purely to save half a million lives. It was the opposite of self preservation.

 

 

[palaeologos]

On 8/21/2017 at 5:26 PM, Lew Theobald said:

It looks suspiciously like a damnation arc to me:  complete with a warning, a rejected invitation to repentance, and a devil from beyond the grave showing up at midnight to claim his soul.

"Jaime Lannister, a cenar teco m'invitasti..." 

[Dragnipur]

The lannisters seem to be the most misunderstood family in the entire series. Apart from cersei i think none of the lannisters are truly corrupt. I think the ones that stick out are Tywin and Jaime, others like Tyrion, Kevan, Lancel seem as good/bad as any other nobleman in westeros. If you include Jaime and Cersei's bastards, Joffrey obviously sticks out, but Tommen and Myrcella seem just fine.

To start with Tywin, the major issue is his brutality and specifically how he dealt with the sack of KL. His relations with Aerys soured mysteriously, I personally think it was a case of Aerys raping Joanna but regardless of where you stand on that issue, shit hit the fan when Jaime took the kingsguard. For a person like Tywin whose primary objective in life is securing his family legacy, his line was as good as dead from his perspective. Tywin never accepted Tyrion as his trueborn and Cersei being female would adopt her husbands line (going by medieval way of thinking)+plus he never regarded Cersei very highly. From his point of view Aerys took away the most important thing in his life (rape of Joanna leading to her death + Jaime, who is his most beloved child/successor). Is it too surprising that he decided to return a similar favor, i.e. end the Targaryen line? If you believe in the Tywin+Pycelle sabotaging Aerys's children theory, Tywin had been plotting this for a while. It is true Tywin's methods are blunt, but it is not too rare in Westeros. I think a decent example is Robert, he believed Rhaegar stole his to-be-wife, and decided he wanted to end the entire Targaryen line for this.

As for Jaime, two issues stick out, killing Aerys while in the kingsguard and throwing bran off the roof. Prior to this kinglsaying episode, i think Jaime had a pretty clean book. The issue with kinslaying was a simple choice at that point, either it was kinslaying (kill his father or die trying) or kingslaying (kill aerys). Kinslaying would probably also lead to countless other deaths due to wildfire, and he+Aerys would invariable end up dead as well. I think it is safe to say at that point kingslaying was a better choice from a overall good-for-all perspective or at the very least as bad as kinslaying+wildfire. The next one is throwing Bran off the window. At that point the choice was simple, either he kills Bran or the kid invariably talks and leads to the death of him, cersei, their three children and possibly the entire lannister family (depending on how butthurt Robert turns out to be). Again, from Jaime's perspective, this seems like a decent call although it results in the near-death of an innocent. 

Edit: Also, Tywin in particular seems to be quite disapproving of the excesses of Cersei and Joffrey. I think although he has his way of looking at things, Tywin has a sense of proportion/justice to him.

Edit 2: I say most misunderstood partly because the POV nature of the story telling. By most of the realm, and particularly the POV characters, the lannisters are seen with a lot of distrust due to Tywins sacking of KL and Jaime's kinslaying; both of which are pretty horrible things to do in westeros but instead of paying a penalty, they are one of the most powerful houses in the 7 kingdoms. This gives them an air of shady schemers who get their way regardless of what they do. As detailed above, there is a great deal of information assymetry surrounding tywins sacking+jaimes kingslaying. However, GRRM writes so beautifully that when we read the character's POV, we fail to distinguish between the perception of the POV characters and reality.

[Dofs]

14 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

I stand corrected.

Okay.  So you're position is that this is all a put on.  An act.  For Edmure's benefit.  So Edmure will believe his threats.

Fair enough.

Except we have access to his POV, wherein GRRM gives us not a hint that Jaime does not mean every word he says.  GRRM could have clued us in on the "act" but chose not to.  So this put-on is not only for the benefit of Edmure, but for the benefit of the reader as well. 

If Jaime does not mean these terrible threats he is making, could we not call that a "twist"?  Hey, I'm not saying I know where the story is going. GRRM could surprise me. All I'm saying is that, so far, it does not look like a "redemption arc" to me.

Jaime has this new preoccupation with keeping oaths.  Surely that applies to threats, as well as promises.

GRRM didn't openly tell us what Jaime was up to, but he did clue us in that Jaime was up to something here:

"It's the Blackfish who is the danger, not Edmure. "Leave Edmure to me. Ser Lyle, Ser Ilyn. Attend me, if you would. It's time I paid a visit to those gallows."

The Tumblestone was deeper and swifter than the Red Fork, and the nearest ford was leagues upstream. The ferry had just started across with Walder Rivers and Edwyn Frey when Jaime and his men arrived at the river. As they awaited its return, Jaime told them what he wanted. Ser Ilyn spat into the river."

 

Jaime tells his plan to Strongboar and Ilyn Payne but despite us being in Jaime's head, GRRM never tells us what it is and why Jaime needed those two. We only see the plan being carried out. And the plan was to threaten Edmure with what he cares about from the very beginning - that's why he went to get Edmure in the first place and that's why he also brought a singer with him from the Frey camp.  But before making the threat he was making sure that Edmure believed it. So he was making an impression of a "no bullshit" Kingslayer who makes no empty threats in front of him. This is why he also brought Strongboar and Ilyn Payne with him - their intimidating presence would help in creating this impression. That's also why he threatened the Frey against speaking, something Frey couldn't have not done, to showcase Edmure that his words mean business.

 

And this is why he in the end told a completely impossible to carry out threat to Edmure - because he knew that after all that show Edmure would not think twice if the threat even makes sense. Because it doesn't. There is the threat:

"You've seen our numbers, Edmure. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here." Jaime got to his feet. "Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."

 

This is a huge pile of hyperbolic bs. Regarding the attack waves, Jaime had already decided before that he will be among the first to attack if it comes to that:

"He would need to storm the castle. Well, what's one more broken vow to the Kingslayer? Just more shit in the bucket. Jaime resolved to be the first man on the battlements."

Regarding destruction of Riverrun, the castle was given to his aunt and uncle, he wouldn't have destroyed it. Regarding the baby, when exactly Jaime was supposed to carry it out? It was not supposed to be born for months. So what Jaime would have done? After taking the castle, it will go to his aunt and uncle but few months later, once the child is born, he would ride back to Riverrun, throw it over the walls, and then destroy his aunt's castle and divert a river over it? Please. This threat is stupid. Jaime knew it was stupid, but he also knew that Edmure would believe it. He made sure he would.

14 hours ago, SerMudz said:

No, it's the line spoken to the Frey who keeps making threats to hang Edmure but not carrying them out. It's supposed to tell you Jaime doesn't make idle threats so that when he later threatens to trebuchet Edmures baby you know he's serious. He absolutely would have carried that threat out, he just hoped to god he wouldn't have to.

See above.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, The Wolves said:

The gangrape of Tysha, Elia and her babies and his raid on the Riverlands will always be what I go to to show the evidence of his evil. 

Whose? Jaime had nothing to do w/ what happened to Tysha. Tyrion, on the other hand...

@Dofs, great post above! 

[The Wolves]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Whose? Jaime had nothing to do w/ what happened to Tysha. Tyrion, on the other hand...

Tywin

[Darksnider05]

58 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Whose? Jaime had nothing to do w/ what happened to Tysha. Tyrion, on the other hand...

@Dofs, great post above! 

He hid the truth about her not being a whore which still wouldn't justify the whole thing.  Jaime was complicit as far as that goes he was involved. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Darksnider05 said:

He hid the truth about her not being a whore which still wouldn't justify the whole thing.  Jaime was complicit as far as that goes he was involved. 

I was obviously referring to Tysha being raped by the Lannister men and by Tyrion.

[BericDondarrion]

The Lannisters are also thieves by the last few books.

 

stole House Hayford. They married a Baby to tyrek. A freaking baby. 

Cersei wants Pycelle to lie and say that Gyles Rosby wanted to give all his lands and wealth directly to Tommen Baratheon. They stole Darry and made sure it fell into Lannister hands via Lancel. And the most grievous and despicable plan was marrying a disgusting ugly dwarf Tyrion to Sansa, the heiress of Winterfell. Yuck.

 

thats just 3 very noble houses along with a GREAT HOUSE, one more prestigious then their own and that's just what they usurped Just in the last couple years. Not to mention they stole the iron throne from the Baratheons. They have no right to sit on it but they stole it.

 

 

The Lannisters are evil thieves. Can't wait for them to be destroyed. Like my boy Jon Snow said, it's "death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister".

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

The Lannisters are also thieves by the last few books.

Not really. All they have gained has been legally attained.

2 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

stole House Hayford. They married a Baby to tyrek. A freaking baby. 

We don't know who made that decision. Presumably its either a regent that has agreed to that marriage or the king decided to have that marriage. In both cases its something they gained legit.

2 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

Cersei wants Pycelle to lie and say that Gyles Rosby wanted to give all his lands and wealth directly to Tommen Baratheon. They stole Darry and made sure it fell into Lannister hands via Lancel. And the most grievous and despicable plan was marrying a disgusting ugly dwarf Tyrion to Sansa, the heiress of Winterfell. Yuck.

They didn't steal Darry or Winterfell. The separatists lost their war and like most losers in war, say for example Daemon's Blacks, they lost castles and lands and hostages with their defeat. This war has not been different and the Darry line is extinguished anyway so its not like there are improverished Darrys around to suffer for the Lannisters' gain of Darry. Same with Sansa really, just like she benefited for most of her life by her family's standing so she is drawn down with them in defeat. I doubt anyone thinks that Sansa, Arya, Bran or Robb should have refused their privilages to work their way up from the bottom like smallfolk. So in essence of what I want to say is that in a society where you're benefitting from your family's standing you will also lose out from their fall. And Sansa's family were traitors on both paternal and maternal sides and they lost their rebellion. Sansa has about as much reason and right to complain as Osgrey's daughter that was taken as hostage after the Blackfyre Rebellion, but somehow I don't think that people would care much for young Lady Osgrey's concerns.

2 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

thats just 3 very noble houses along with a GREAT HOUSE, one more prestigious then their own and that's just what they usurped Just in the last couple years. Not to mention they stole the iron throne from the Baratheons. They have no right to sit on it but they stole it.

The Starks, which I assume that you mean, are not more prestigeous than the Lannisters by a far stretch. As for Baratheons Joffrey was King Robert's heir and unless you want to imply that a House is a strict biological thing strictly by paternal descent, then Joffrey Baratheon is a Baratheon. He was recognized as Robert's son, as Robert's heir and inherited what Robert possessed. And to that Tommen was Joffrey's heir and so on.

And since I think that a House is a socio-political construction I dare say that just like the present Lannisters are, well, Lannisters and the present Starks are Starks so Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are Baratheons as far as it counts.

2 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

The Lannisters are evil thieves. Can't wait for them to be destroyed. Like my boy Jon Snow said, it's "death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister".

Some of the Lannisters may be evil, well actually about two out of a pretty big clan one can argue are evil, but the rest simply are not. They are much better written than that and complex. And your boy Jon Snow can say whatever he wants. He'll be nothing but a burnt corpse before the winter is done.

[Dofs]

15 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

He hid the truth about her not being a whore which still wouldn't justify the whole thing.  Jaime was complicit as far as that goes he was involved. 

Jaime's lie though did not affect Tysha's fate in any way.

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-08-29 at 6:17 PM, palaeologos said:

There's no support for that in the text.  Any number of factors could have contributed to Lysa's instability, from a predisposition to mental illness to her arranged marriage to a man she didn't want to the torch she was carrying for Petyr Baelish (remember, he took her virginity under the impression that she was her sister).  The fact that she was married to Arryn is purely circumstantial, and there is no textual evidence that he mistreated her in any way.

 

Well there's this from Lysa herself. And I didn't mean that he mistreated her like in domestic abuse. I'm saying that such a young woman is not likely to find much pleasent with such an old man leading to her being miserable in her life. This is what Lysa says about it.

Quote

"No more than I did," her aunt said. "Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father's swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he'd rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too." Lady Lysa sniffed. "You do know that your poor mother is dead?"

As such I get the impression that Jon being simply so far past his prime was a contributing factor to Lysa's mental illness as they'd have very little in common and there would be little to no attraction from Lysa to Lord Arryn. I an entirely sure that an unhappy relation that you can't get out of is a negative influence on your mind and long-term heatlh.