El Guapo Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Apoplexy said: I never believed Mirri Maz Durr, I think she was lying. But it is possible that Dany can become fertile only when certain conditions are met. And Jon is still her nephew, which makes this romance a bit off putting. Only death pays for life. She lost one child (dragon) this episode, she will get another (human ) one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Flours Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 It's a question I've wondered about since Book1/Series1 and makes sense to ask at least now she's arrived in Westeros. Though if I was her Hand I might have asked it before we set off from Essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Apoplexy said: Exactly. And Tyrion should know better than to suggest 'elections' since he was in Essos and saw democracy fail there first hand. I think tyrion had a big pair of nuts when he talked about dany naming a successor when she is still mad at him. I was really waiting for her to ask "and are you the one I will be giving the throne too". Tyrion has lost her several allies with his plans and if I was him I would be careful. Even if I was dany and heard him bring that up it would be a red flag to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, El Guapo said: Only death pays for life. She lost one child (dragon) this episode, she will get another (human ) one. I did not think about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Dany does not want democracy. When has she ever expressed anything like that? Her idea of "breaking the wheel" is her on top, and no-one to impose checks and balances on her, the way the Lords Paramount did on the Targaryen dynasty of old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I loved the fact that Tyrion said it was going to take a long time, probably more than one lifetime, to bring about the changes she wants. It's the first sensible thing anyone's said about the whole "breaking the wheel" thing since the show started. And if she dies halfway through the transition, that's the easiest time for someone to take advantage of the instability and play Napoleon/Stalin/insert-your-favorite-revolution-betrayer. So he's absolutely right that she needs to be prepared to hand things off to a successor that she can trust to continue her plans. On the other hand, she's right that it really can wait until she wins. If she doesn't get the throne, none of her plans matter. And nobody who's helping her get the throne is doing it because of her long-range plans, except maybe Tyrion himself, so there's nobody they need to reassure. All in all, I thought it was pretty insightful and relevant, and I don't get why anyone would be complaining about it. One thing, though: The election or kingsmoot idea that Tyrion floats seems like a bad idea. If Westeros is ready to democratically choose the steward who will lead them to democracy, then Westeros is already ready for democracy, so they don't need a successor. And if Westeros isn't ready for democracy, then they're just going to elect a Napoleon in waiting, rather than the right person to continue the changes. The obvious thing to do is to choose her successor, name him her heir by will, and do everything possible to solidify that claim. The precedent set by the Dance of the Dragons weakened the force of a King's will, so that last bit is pretty important. Adopt him Roman-style, make him a "Junior King" while she still reigns either English- or Byzantine-style, train him as a dragonrider, whatever she can think of. (Of course if it's Jon, the obvious answer is to marry him, but I don't think Jon is the right successor. For one thing, he's not likely to outlive her, which kind of defeats the purpose…) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildling Queen Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, i_am_no_one said: Is it really not mentioned in her prophecy in the show?? It's been a long while since I saw that episode from the 1st season, but man I can't believe they'd exclude such a pivotal part of it. It's in there. Season one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 The prophecy was never actually mentioned by MMD on the show. But the writers apparently forgot about this by season two and now in season seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, El Guapo said: The prophecy was never actually mentioned by MMD on the show. But the writers apparently forgot about this by season two and now in season seven. The prophecy doesn't predict that Dany is barren in the books either: Quote When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he [Drogo] will return, and not before. Sure, it can be read as implying that her bearing a child is as impossible as the other things in the list, but it doesn't actually say that. All it says is that all of those impossible things have to happen, along with her bearing a child, before Drogo returns. Which is true even if Dany isn't barren. Her womb will quicken, she'll bear a living child, but none of the other stuff will happen, so Drogo still won't return to her. Phrasing a prophecy in a way that could mislead Dany into making an unwarranted assumption that will make her miserable for years, without actually lying? That seems 100% in-character for Mirri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Mother Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 7 hours ago, Ser Meryn Frey said: It's never been brought up before, even though she has been a queen for 6 6/7 seasons. Did they bring it up because it will matter in the last, up coming, season? Will Jon Snow inherit her crown and realm? It was logical for Tyrion to bring that up because Daenerya is wanting to do things that might get her killed...... and if she dies, everything they are doing dies. AND she can't have children? It's logical to ask that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 minute ago, falcotron said: Phrasing a prophecy in a way that could mislead Dany into making an unwarranted assumption that will make her miserable for years, without actually lying? That seems 100% in-character for Mirri. It does, doesn't it? I've been saying for years that Mirri was doing this on purpose, but that she was wrong - whether she knew it or not. I really can't see a way for any child of Dany to have any impact on the story except in some epilogue kinda sense though, there simply isn't time to get pregnant and go to term, let alone give birth. Unless the child can use the same time-acceleration technology they use for travelling, then I suppose she can have a full-grown teenager by the end of the next episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 43 minutes ago, snow is the man said: I think tyrion had a big pair of nuts when he talked about dany naming a successor when she is still mad at him. I was really waiting for her to ask "and are you the one I will be giving the throne too". Tyrion has lost her several allies with his plans and if I was him I would be careful. Even if I was dany and heard him bring that up it would be a red flag to me. I agree. Tyrion was rather tactless in bringing up the question of succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 If Tyrion is suggesting a more democratic way of selecting rulers, does that imply that he will resist Jon being king even if he has a better claim than Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Mikkel said: It does, doesn't it? I've been saying for years that Mirri was doing this on purpose, but that she was wrong - whether she knew it or not.. But I don't think Mirri was wrong. In fact, it's not even really a prophecy at all. Mirri is basically saying "My healing failed (maybe intentionally), Drogo isn't going to wake up." That's not a prophecy, that's a doctor giving the post-op prognosis. She puts it in flowery terms, but "Your husband isn't going to wake up until the sun rises in the west" means the same thing as "Your husband isn't going to wake up". And throwing in the bit about Dany bearing a child is just misleading her to make her miserable. I'm pretty sure that's all it means. Just now, Mikkel said: I really can't see a way for any child of Dany to have any impact on the story except in some epilogue kinda sense though, there simply isn't time to get pregnant and go to term, let alone give birth.. If she gets pregnant, and they give us some reason to believe she's going to go to term (Bran, some other fortune teller, or a super Maester exam that Sam discovered, or, hell, "I'm magic Dany, I know it"), they've wrapped up the succession story, without needing an epilogue. But an epilogue isn't impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, falcotron said: But I don't think Mirri was wrong. In fact, it's not even really a prophecy at all. I think it IS a prophecy, but Mirri didn't intend it as one. She just intended it as a final fuck-you to Dany. It is not, however, a prophecy that means what the words immediately suggest (but then, when are they ever?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, Mikkel said: except in some epilogue kinda sense though Now that I think about it, there's another option: the Animal House ending. Freeze-frame on each character, and put up a label to say where they end up: Tyrion: Ruled as Hand until he found a successor he could trust, then retired to Casterly Rock. Gendry: Legitimized as a Baratheon and given the Stormlands. Jaime: Founded the new Night Watch, which turned out to be pretty dull with no more White Walkers and few raids from the Free Folk. Davos: Moved to Naath. Died of butterfly fever. Edmure: Still rotting in a cell in the Twins, nobody even remembers why. Tormund: Finally got a night with Brienne. She wasn't impressed. Moved back to live in the Far North. Lyanna: Found running Bear Island boring without any wars to fight. Moved to Meereen to become a pit fighter. Pod: Gave up swordsmanship to practice a different kind of swordsmanship. Now known as The Male Black Swan. Arya: Returned to Essos. There were no survivors. Jon: Ruled for 100 years and was a wise king and good—suck it, GRRM, now you're Tolkien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 minute ago, falcotron said: Edmure: Still rotting in a cell in the Twins, nobody even remembers why. Tormund: Finally got a night with Brienne. She wasn't impressed. Moved back to live in the Far North. Nose-Exhaled at those two. Particularly "She wasn't impressed." Hell, it'll probably beat whatever the actual ending will be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm.131 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I think they brought up the succession as a follow up to Gilly reading about Rhaegar's annulment and remarriage. Once Daenerys finds out Jon is her nephew and legitimate, she will name him her heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionFan82 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This was a pretty glaring plot point in this ep. As such I think it's foreshadowing regarding Jon and her, like last ep I took it that way. So I think she'll end up pregnant just don't know when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionFan82 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, falcotron said: Now that I think about it, there's another option: the Animal House ending. Freeze-frame on each character, and put up a label to say where they end up: Tyrion: Ruled as Hand until he found a successor he could trust, then retired to Casterly Rock. Gendry: Legitimized as a Baratheon and given the Stormlands. Jaime: Founded the new Night Watch, which turned out to be pretty dull with no more White Walkers and few raids from the Free Folk. Davos: Moved to Naath. Died of butterfly fever. Edmure: Still rotting in a cell in the Twins, nobody even remembers why. Tormund: Finally got a night with Brienne. She wasn't impressed. Moved back to live in the Far North. Lyanna: Found running Bear Island boring without any wars to fight. Moved to Meereen to become a pit fighter. Pod: Gave up swordsmanship to practice a different kind of swordsmanship. Now known as The Male Black Swan. Arya: Returned to Essos. There were no survivors. Jon: Ruled for 100 years and was a wise king and good—suck it, GRRM, now you're Tolkien. I loved this, classic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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