[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

I'm trying to decide what makes less sense plot wise.  The wight hunt or Sansa marrying Ramsay.  Does anyone understand the reasoning for why either of these events occurred?

So they could have Kit and Sophie emote on cue.

[darmody]

I have been trying to pinpoint the Fulcrum of Stupidity for this episode, when my suspension of disbelief crumbled and my interest flew out the window. It probably came in the previous episode, when they concocted this lamebrained scheme. Because frankly I couldn't work myself up into caring last night, except briefly when Tormund was talking to the Hound. 

But I have it. When we saw Jon & Co. running in the preview, I assumed they were on their way back to the Wall, and I cursed them as idiots for not bringing horses. (For going at all, actually.) But turns out only Gendry ran for the Wall. Jon was running away from it. Huh?

Put the pin in that scene. That's where it falls apart. The group senses the Army of the Dead is coming, Jon orders Gendry back to the Wall, and the rest of them run in the opposite direction. Why? Where are they going? They can't possibly know a frozen lake too thin for zombies to walk all the way across with a tiny island in the middle awaits them ahead. Nor that the island will be safe within a circle for three days, should they be surrounded, because the zombies will start falling through the ice at a temporarily safe distance. Which will be juuust long enough for Dany to show up. 

Isn't running for the Wall a safer bet? It's closer than three days away, even if they knew the lake was there. Which they didn't. 

Maybe if they were providing a diversion so Gendry could get back with the zombie...But no, I'm done rewriting this show. 

[hallapino]

The undead army is close and marching on the wall. Dani saves the group and they fly to Eastwatch instead of Dragonstone. Jon shows up hurt. The urgency of the situation seems enormous. Yet they decide to jump on a ship to sail the 1500 miles to Kings landing unstead of just flying. Huh? Since Jon is the King in the North, has seen the wights and is the one arranging the parley with Cersei why would they even bother sending for Sansa to witness the event.

[Rubicante]

I was just thinking.  When Jon's party was completely surrounded by the army of the dead, there was a way they could have escaped unharmed.  He could have asked for a parley with the Night's King and told him "We have one of your wights.  If you allow us to leave peacefully, then we will not harm him.  If you do not leave, we will burn him".  This would put pressure on the Night's King to leave.

[Steelborn]

I don't think the Night's King would care that much about one of his minions when he has already hundreds of thousands and 7 (?) potential zombies right in front of him. 

[Rubicante]

16 minutes ago, Steelborn said:

I don't think the Night's King would care that much about one of his minions when he has already hundreds of thousands and 7 (?) potential zombies right in front of him. 

I don't know.  When I look at that stern expression on the Night King's face, he strikes me as a man who has "loyalty" and "man of the people" written all over him.

[Rhodan]

10 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Tis here.

I´m glad I wasn´t the only one who noticed the 10 vs. 20. 000 issue.

This show is aproaching Heroes lows of logic and Once upon a time lowls of continuity.

[RhaenysBee]

7 hours ago, Ninerings said:

I don't know you are. If you are male, female, or smurf. Married or unmarried. I am pretty sure I am officially in love with you. 

#5 was the absolute best!

I will bend the knee for you anytime!

And I can't even say your feelings have less merit than daenerys's for Jon.  

why, thank you, I swear I will help you defeat CGI bears too! 

(For the record, I'm a female smurf from the Arctic who never wears a hat) 

4 hours ago, 7th-key said:

The wights are obviously picky and like to gain/loss evaluate. Some six dudes are not worth wet feet (and the Hound didn't even bring them any chicken). But for a dragon? A freaking dragon! It's scuba time!

The wights are smart. They waited for Jon to fall into the freezing lake, climb out and ride away, so they could borrow his scuba gear. 

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

They did a pretty bad job with most of the reunions.

Having the first reunion be Jon and Sansa, the two who had the least in common and never even had a scene together, was poor plotting.  

The Sansa/Bran, Sansa/Arya and Bran/Arya reunions were rushed and not very emotionally compelling, they didn't feel "big".

Jon and Arya should be epic, it will probably fall flat.  

It's going to be Jon and Arya standing 2 meters from each other and staring blankly at each other because that's all Kit Harrington can do and that's all Maisie Williams is allowed to do. Then they will say something about their father who Jon doesn't look like, because he takes after his mother, but then I wonder who is Arya taking after... (Hugh Jackman?) Then Arya will say something about her list and/or training, but Jon will be too busy to tell her about the real threat because "Dany" will be waiting in the Lord's chamber to bend the knee to him and and it's difficult to explain anyways. Cut. Jon will never speak with Bran. 

 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Rubicante said:

I'm trying to decide what makes less sense plot wise.  The wight hunt or Sansa marrying Ramsay.  Does anyone understand the reasoning for why either of these events occurred?

 

Sansa marrying Ramsey: Jon the randomly wandering bastard had no chance of getting Winterfell on his own and therefore no chance of encountering Dany. Sansa needed a reason to get away from LF and to Jon instead so she could help raise up Jon as KitN so we could get Jonerys. It had to be Sansa because they needed someone to hold down Winterfell so Jon could get elected King and then bail two episodes later yet still be King…because Jonerys.

Wight Hunt: I think this was supposed to be the big set up for the conflict of season 8 between Jon and the NK and this was their idea for having Jon be both north of the Wall to set up season 8 conflict and also still be hanging out on Dragonstone. Dany had to lose her dragon and be upset (in theory) so she could be all vulnerable and Jon had to be hurt so he could be all vulnerable so…Jonerys.

It’s kind of a neat little game you can play for a lot of the nonsensical characters and plots: does it enable Jonerys? You can connect nonsense to Jonerys set up entirely too often. Especially great if you happened to be missing 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon.

[Yoren Luck]

It's just a tv show really, so I am trying to continue the suspension of disbelief as much as possible to get through it, but this whole wight hunt ordeal is really too much.  All of the ranting and raving on this thread and others have already touched on a lot of the issues regarding the actual plot and how it unfolded, and I agree with all of what has been said.  I still just can't believe there wasn't anyone in the writing room stopping this madness from even being produced in the first place.  I'm not going to write a huge fan-fiction here, but I will offer one of a number of possible alternatives that would have been more believable and still achieved the necessary ends.  

Step 1: when Danaerys returns from roasting Lannisters and has that scene with Jon bonding with Drogon, have Jon ask her something like 'how far away was the battle?' and have her respond with some info on where the battle took place and an estimate of how long it took her to get back.  Then have that dialogue where Jon calls them remarkable beasts or whatever he said, and Dany calls them her children, and have Jon give his typical brooding dialogue about how he knows she doesn't believe truly him about the army of the dead, but if these dragons can fly as fast as you say they can, why not travel north of the wall with me so I can show you the real enemy... [cue dramatic scene where Tyrion tries to convince her not to go, but then in walks a freshly healed Jorah who tells Dany that he just came from the Citadel and was treated by this maester in training from the Nights Watch named Tarly, who told him some tales of his time north of the wall serving his father, and he swore the army and the Night King is real]

Step 2: Since Drogon was recently wounded by Bronn's unbelievable scorpion talents, Dany decides to just take Rhaegal and Viserion, with the both of them on Rhaegal.  Now, I know that this is a bit of a stretch because she has never ridden any of her other two dragons, but the point of this is obviously to gift a dragon to the Night King, so let's go with it for now.

Step 3: Dany and Jon fly to Eastwatch.  Here they meet with Tormund and some redshirt wildlings, and talk about the ongoing efforts to convince Dany and Cersei of the real enemy at hand.  Tormund jokingly suggests that while Jon and Dany are scouting north of the wall, they should just scoop up a wight and deliver it to Cersei.  After all, nothing short of that is going to convince the mad queen or any other Southerner of the real threat to Westeros.  Jon and Dany laugh with everyone else about how silly the idea sounds, but Jon allows himself a moment to quietly consider it.  He discretely grabs a burlap sack and some rope just in case.

Step 4: A quick scene of Bran breaking out of another flock of ravens warging session where he sees Jon and Dany flying north from Eastwatch. Then moments later Bran goes full warg on Benjen/Benjen's horse, directing them to where Jon and Dany are heading.  This could even be done offscreen or not at all.

Step 5: Jon and Dany fly north until they see the front of the army of the dead.  Dany is noticeably distraught over the scene, but ignores Jon's request to stay back and instead goes in to spray a bunch of them with fire.  This works for a while, with Rhaegal and Viserion taking out big numbers of the dead army, and Jon notices that there are a few undead that are far enough away that she could land the dragon and he could scoop one up for Cersei.  So they do just that.

Step 6: Jon hacks his way to getting just one undead isolated, and then tags him and bags him.  Just as he is about to throw the wriggling corpse onto Rhaegal, the Night King and his bodyguard wights appear atop their protected perch area and start throwing ice javelins at the Dany and Jon.  Viserion takes one for the team and crash lands in such a way that it clears out a bunch more deadites and gives Dany a moment to take off.  Deadites swarm and Jon can't get back onto Rhaegal.  More ice javelins are about to be launched to he yells to Dany to leave and fights his way through a few of them at a time while running back to Eastwatch.

Step 7: Everyone's favorite uncle rides in in the knick of time to save Jon.  They have a moment's exchange similar to how they did it in the episode, when Jon gets on his horse while Benjen buys him time to leave.  Deadite is dragged behind the horse as he gallops back to Eastwatch.

Step 8: Dany arrives back at Eastwatch, and luckily is too distraught to leave right away for Dragonstone...Tormund tells her that Jon Snow is a survivor, and gives her the story of the Night's Watch mutiny on him and how he was brought back.  Tormund convinces her to stay a bit longer as they both stand atop the wall hoping for his return, although even Tormund doubts it this time.

Step 9: Lo and Behold, Jon does return in true hero fashion, cementing his hero status in Dany's eyes.  The two travel back to Dragonstone, where they take the wight in to show the rest of the council.  The decision is made at this point to send Davos and Tyrion to Kings Landing to arrange a meeting to negotiate an armistice and discuss the real threat to the continent.

In the end, Dany gets her proof and learns of Jon's stabbing, Jon gets his wight for Cersei, the Night King gets a dragon, Benjen gets tied up as a loose end, and Thoros is not needlessly killed yet.

Bonus stuff - this scenario doesn't involve an impossible Gendry marathon, and he can be picked up in Kings Landing in a more thrilling manner next week in the season finale.  This scenario also doesn't involve the BwB, since in my mind they are just arriving at Winterfell, where Arya, Brienne, and Sansa have a few scenes with the Sandor Clegane to close out the season.  It also doesn't require a CGI bear so maybe a few seconds of Ghost could be worked in to an episode this season. And of course...no 'wight hunt' and no subsequent monty python-esque debates over how far/fast a raven can travel in a day.

Retcon rant over.  Thanks for reading if you did

 

 

[RhaenysBee]

16 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Well at least we got to see what deadpan grief looks like. Seriously could Dany have looked less grief stricken over losing her "child"...

People don't experience grief in this show. The only people who showed human grief were Catelyn and Robb Stark. (And season 1 Sansa and Daenerys, you know, when they still had emotions because they weren't "strong and independent" and "empowered" and "badass" female characters)

[Haskelltier]

2 hours ago, Rubicante said:

I was just thinking.  When Jon's party was completely surrounded by the army of the dead, there was a way they could have escaped unharmed.  He could have asked for a parley with the Night's King and told him "We have one of your wights.  If you allow us to leave peacefully, then we will not harm him.  If you do not leave, we will burn him".  This would put pressure on the Night's King to leave.

 

2 hours ago, Steelborn said:

I don't think the Night's King would care that much about one of his minions when he has already hundreds of thousands and 7 (?) potential zombies right in front of him. 

Well, I have seen things in Game of Thrones which made less sense than this. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the showrunner actually tried something ridiculous like a parley over a captured wight.

[watcher of the night]

In defense of Jon and co., they did use dragonglass weapons. Jorah had a pair of dragonglass daggers (it is even clear on Preston's video), the Hound dropped the hammer to use a dragonglass dagger and short axe, Tormund had a dragonglass large axe, the redfurs had dragonglass spears, Beric had a flaming sword and Jon had valyriansteel. 

It is funny though that they would have left the most inexperienced fighter (Gendry) to fight with a useless hammer ... and yep, no archers; which is just stupid, who wants to kill white walkers from a safe distance ...

[Ser Morbid]

Instead of showing Night King doing some epic mysterious magical ritual by the lake and after a while of suspense fucking Ice dragon breaks through the ice of lake they choose to have Wights pull it out with chains just so he can pet him on the head? WTF whoever write these episodes should be fired and told to never ever again participate in any movie / series project. I mean almost every movie and series produced in USA for the last 10 years is the same cliche shi* in different environments, however GOT was different (S01-S04). There were no Deus ex-machinas, no plot armor, smart and witty plot full of intrique and political maneuvering, interesting and genuine characters with personal motivations and emotions. Seeing this episode was stab in my heart. I am just too sad to put it in the words how disappointing these last 3 seasons are. The worst of it is that people just love it, I admit there is more and more people seeing through this bullshit but it's just minority and this is the only place on the internet where you can speak freely without die-hard fans hammering you to the ground by sheer numbers.

The night is truly dark and full of terrors, rant over.

[Iotun]

1 minute ago, watcher of the night said:

It is funny though that they would have left the most inexperienced fighter (Gendry) to fight with a useless hammer ... and yep, no archers; which is just stupid, who wants to kill white walkers from a safe distance ...

Wouldn't it be great? Our heroes are trapped on the island... the Night King is standing in the distance looking at them.... 'All we have to do is take 'him' down' says Beric...

Cue to over the shoulder shot behind the Night's King aaaaand... a dragonglass arrow goes through his head. All the White Walkers shutter, and all the Wights fall dead.

'Well, that takes care of that' says the Hound. 'Can you image how stupid we would be if we had come all the way up here without any arrows?'

[Iotun]

8 minutes ago, Ser Morbid said:

Instead of showing Night King doing some epic mysterious magical ritual by the lake and after a while of suspense fucking Ice dragon breaks through the ice of lake they choose to have Wights pull it out with chains just so he can pet him on the head? WTF whoever write these episodes should be fired and told to never ever again participate in any movie / series project. I mean almost every movie and series produced in USA for the last 10 years is the same cliche shi* in different environments, however GOT was different (S01-S04). There were no Deus ex-machinas, no plot armor, smart and witty plot full of intrique and political maneuvering, interesting and genuine characters with personal motivations and emotions. Seeing this episode was stab in my heart. I am just too sad to put it in the words how disappointing these last 3 seasons are. The worst of it is that people just love it, I admit there is more and more people seeing through this bullshit but it's just minority and this is the only place on the internet where you can speak freely without die-hard fans hammering you to the ground by sheer numbers.

The night is truly dark and full of terrors, rant over.

It's just easy cash at this point for them. Given that the show has managed to get its fanbase, and most people will stay tuned just to see what happens, why take any risks any more? They can revert to standard TV writing without worrying about artistic integrity, and they'll still get their ratings.

[Armand Gargalen]

2 hours ago, Steelborn said:

I don't think the Night's King would care that much about one of his minions when he has already hundreds of thousands and 7 (?) potential zombies right in front of him. 

 

2 hours ago, Rubicante said:

I don't know.  When I look at that stern expression on the Night King's face, he strikes me as a man who has "loyalty" and "man of the people" written all over him.

He obviously cares. Did you guys notice how many wights were trying to rescue the captured one?

[Jaime4Brienne]

I turn my mind off when I watch the show now and enjoy it a lot more but two things sprang out at me. 1. Dany goes on and on and on about the dragons being her children...she even breastfed them for god sake!! Then one of her "children" is killed right before her eyes and we get...blankness...total blankness. Then she's up in the tower (looking for Jon I think, not mourning) and we get more blankness. This is one of the three children she (supposedly) is ever going to have and just....nothing... Also I am getting really sick of her in general. 

2.If they have a sword that gives off heat/flame whenever Beric wants it to...why are they freezing? Why aren't they melting the ice with it? It makes 0 sense.

The Ayra/Sansa scene I liked because Sansa always acts to high and mighty and I loved Ayra taking her down a peg.

[Jaime4Brienne]

On 8/21/2017 at 4:26 AM, Corvinus said:

Yup, all smith work and rowing gave city-boy, first-time-beyond-the-Wall Gendry the legs to run all those miles. 

Also through snow...D and D must be from somewhere warm because just walking through snow is harder running through snow would exhaust you in no time, especially if you hadn't trained to 1. run long distances 2.run through snow 

[Jaime4Brienne]

On 8/21/2017 at 6:39 AM, Table8 said:

Water in westeros is much more buoyant than earth.  It is known.  Armor and weapons float upwards.