[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[Spaßvogel]

 

I will probably read this thread when I have more time, (so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said) but this was another episode that had us laughing. 

Gendry *runs* back to Eastwatch...on foot, and sends a Raven...to Dragonstone, then Dany, her love of Jon being so strong, flies to save him with just her dragon.  The NK takes down a dragon with a single thrown spear...uh huh, and then had the wherewithal to have a bunch of enormous chains handy to pull the Dragon's body up to the surface? 

The mind boggles.

[Yoren Luck]

I keep forgetting to bring this up and just remembered when posting in another thread, but one more minor rant I have is that Cersei already is employing an undead minion ad a bodyguard.  No wight from north of the wall is going to scare her into joining the Dany/Jon alliance and fighting for the greater good.  If anything, Qyburn will want to study the damn thing and she'll plot to form an alliance with the Night King.

Granted, the other characters don't know about the Mountain being undead yet, but this seems like a minor plot hole that has been bugging me lately.  Are we supposed to believe that Cersei is going to see this undead soldier and fear it, when she is literally protected by an undead soldier?

[storm.131]

On 23/08/2017 at 1:30 AM, NickStark2494 said:

They changed the lore on the show. In both Episodes 2 and 3 of this season, they say that dragonglass kills both White Walkers and wights. Jon says it in Ep. 2, Tyrion in Ep. 3.

Dave Hill, one of D&D's assistants, said the same thing in an interview recently. Dragonglass on the show kills wights. Valyrian steel does too apparently, because we see Jon slash several wights in this episode, and they all fall and stop moving after a single hit.

That's interesting.  I didn't see that interview and in the scenes you mentioned I didn't really take notice that they included the Wights when talking about the effectiveness of dragonglass. Thanks.

Was there an indication in the show how they found out that dragonglass kills the Wights?  Did Sam include it in his letter to Jon about Dragonstone?  I don't remember.

[fairwarging]

On 8/22/2017 at 0:52 AM, Yoren Luck said:

It's just a tv show really, so I am trying to continue the suspension of disbelief as much as possible to get through it, but this whole wight hunt ordeal is really too much.  All of the ranting and raving on this thread and others have already touched on a lot of the issues regarding the actual plot and how it unfolded, and I agree with all of what has been said.  I still just can't believe there wasn't anyone in the writing room stopping this madness from even being produced in the first place.  I'm not going to write a huge fan-fiction here, but I will offer one of a number of possible alternatives that would have been more believable and still achieved the necessary ends.  

Step 1: when Danaerys returns from roasting Lannisters and has that scene with Jon bonding with Drogon, have Jon ask her something like 'how far away was the battle?' and have her respond with some info on where the battle took place and an estimate of how long it took her to get back.  Then have that dialogue where Jon calls them remarkable beasts or whatever he said, and Dany calls them her children, and have Jon give his typical brooding dialogue about how he knows she doesn't believe truly him about the army of the dead, but if these dragons can fly as fast as you say they can, why not travel north of the wall with me so I can show you the real enemy... [cue dramatic scene where Tyrion tries to convince her not to go, but then in walks a freshly healed Jorah who tells Dany that he just came from the Citadel and was treated by this maester in training from the Nights Watch named Tarly, who told him some tales of his time north of the wall serving his father, and he swore the army and the Night King is real]

Step 2: Since Drogon was recently wounded by Bronn's unbelievable scorpion talents, Dany decides to just take Rhaegal and Viserion, with the both of them on Rhaegal.  Now, I know that this is a bit of a stretch because she has never ridden any of her other two dragons, but the point of this is obviously to gift a dragon to the Night King, so let's go with it for now.

Step 3: Dany and Jon fly to Eastwatch.  Here they meet with Tormund and some redshirt wildlings, and talk about the ongoing efforts to convince Dany and Cersei of the real enemy at hand.  Tormund jokingly suggests that while Jon and Dany are scouting north of the wall, they should just scoop up a wight and deliver it to Cersei.  After all, nothing short of that is going to convince the mad queen or any other Southerner of the real threat to Westeros.  Jon and Dany laugh with everyone else about how silly the idea sounds, but Jon allows himself a moment to quietly consider it.  He discretely grabs a burlap sack and some rope just in case.

Step 4: A quick scene of Bran breaking out of another flock of ravens warging session where he sees Jon and Dany flying north from Eastwatch. Then moments later Bran goes full warg on Benjen/Benjen's horse, directing them to where Jon and Dany are heading.  This could even be done offscreen or not at all.

Step 5: Jon and Dany fly north until they see the front of the army of the dead.  Dany is noticeably distraught over the scene, but ignores Jon's request to stay back and instead goes in to spray a bunch of them with fire.  This works for a while, with Rhaegal and Viserion taking out big numbers of the dead army, and Jon notices that there are a few undead that are far enough away that she could land the dragon and he could scoop one up for Cersei.  So they do just that.

Step 6: Jon hacks his way to getting just one undead isolated, and then tags him and bags him.  Just as he is about to throw the wriggling corpse onto Rhaegal, the Night King and his bodyguard wights appear atop their protected perch area and start throwing ice javelins at the Dany and Jon.  Viserion takes one for the team and crash lands in such a way that it clears out a bunch more deadites and gives Dany a moment to take off.  Deadites swarm and Jon can't get back onto Rhaegal.  More ice javelins are about to be launched to he yells to Dany to leave and fights his way through a few of them at a time while running back to Eastwatch.

Step 7: Everyone's favorite uncle rides in in the knick of time to save Jon.  They have a moment's exchange similar to how they did it in the episode, when Jon gets on his horse while Benjen buys him time to leave.  Deadite is dragged behind the horse as he gallops back to Eastwatch.

Step 8: Dany arrives back at Eastwatch, and luckily is too distraught to leave right away for Dragonstone...Tormund tells her that Jon Snow is a survivor, and gives her the story of the Night's Watch mutiny on him and how he was brought back.  Tormund convinces her to stay a bit longer as they both stand atop the wall hoping for his return, although even Tormund doubts it this time.

Step 9: Lo and Behold, Jon does return in true hero fashion, cementing his hero status in Dany's eyes.  The two travel back to Dragonstone, where they take the wight in to show the rest of the council.  The decision is made at this point to send Davos and Tyrion to Kings Landing to arrange a meeting to negotiate an armistice and discuss the real threat to the continent.

In the end, Dany gets her proof and learns of Jon's stabbing, Jon gets his wight for Cersei, the Night King gets a dragon, Benjen gets tied up as a loose end, and Thoros is not needlessly killed yet.

Bonus stuff - this scenario doesn't involve an impossible Gendry marathon, and he can be picked up in Kings Landing in a more thrilling manner next week in the season finale.  This scenario also doesn't involve the BwB, since in my mind they are just arriving at Winterfell, where Arya, Brienne, and Sansa have a few scenes with the Sandor Clegane to close out the season.  It also doesn't require a CGI bear so maybe a few seconds of Ghost could be worked in to an episode this season. And of course...no 'wight hunt' and no subsequent monty python-esque debates over how far/fast a raven can travel in a day.

Retcon rant over.  Thanks for reading if you did

 

 

Great work! But why no Drogon? To save money? Because he's injured? I think a lot of people would be upset if she rode another dragon because of the bond between dragon and rider in the books (not that the show needs to be the same)

[of man and wolf]

On 8/21/2017 at 1:49 PM, Elayis said:

Still nonsensical and predictable, but at least there’s a momentum to it, along with the spectacle to keep it entertaining in a popcorn movie kind of way.

Before the encounter with the wights, I thought the camaraderie moments with Jon & Co were for the most part well done, probably some of the best writing since season 4. Even the stuff in Winterfell and Dragonstone was okay until the bewildering confrontations that came up. It was nice to have genuine character moments that were relatively well written. It feels like ages since we’ve had competently constructed scenes of people talking that felt natural and organic. A lot of the unresolved issues I had with the previous episode were tidied up, so that was nice to see. The calm before the storm angle was handled nicely, which is word I haven’t used about this show in years.

But the fight scenes were kind of a mess. Not sure if it’s just the low quality/choppy framerate of the bootleg, but it was hard to tell what was going on (and not in a good way). A lot of the moments in the action was very unsurprising and rote, as well. I haven’t read too many spoilers (just Wight Dragon and boat sex), but anyone familiar with standard storytelling tropes could’ve written this episode. Not really surprising, other than the fact that only one of the main 7 died (had a feeling it would be Thoros, too as he seemed the most expendable).

The Sansa/Arya conflict took a weird turn, too. Why was Sansa searching through her rooms? And how twisted (and frankly out of character) is Arya to openly contemplate wearing her sister’s face? She’s smart enough to outsmart and kill the Waif, infiltrate and wipe out the entire Frey male line, but she can’t see through Littlefinger’s obvious plotting? And she can’t just sit down and have a simple conversation with her sister, where they could hash out their issues in a couple of minutes? 

I have to say, I think the reason why Littlefinger’s character hasn’t been working for the last few seasons, but especially in these episodes, is because we know exactly what he’s plotting and why. Before, you never knew what he was doing or what ends he was trying to achieve. Now that the audience is in on the act, it’s lost its appeal. Unfortunately he’s boring now, and long past his expiration date. Not sure why he seemed to lose all of his ambition and guile after killing Lysa, but he’s taking up valuable screen time and needs to go.

Sending off Brienne was odd, too. Why send the only trustworthy person you have, who’s also a very capable fighter, to a meeting with Cersei (for no good reason) where she’ll likely be killed?

And did Tormund actually cry for help? What the hell was that?

The stalemate with the wight army/Gendry running all the way back to the Wall for help was just laughable. How could he make it back so fast? (I’m assuming their initial trek took days, maybe a week or two, and yet it seemed Gendry made it back in a couple of hours) It also seems as if the raven made it Dragonstone in less than a day, same with Dany making the trip. 

Timey-wimey stuff aside, why the hell would the wights just stand there for days? Even with white walkers and the Night King showing up? And yet start charging because Sandor kicked their fellow zombie and threw some rocks? The Night King should’ve had no way of knowing dragons exist again, let alone that they were in Westeros and coming to save the day. As powerful as the show has portrayed them (which frankly, isn’t that impressive, given how easily people have dispatched the Others recently), it’s never been even hinted at that they are omniscient. Some kind of connection with the Three Eyed Raven/Children of the Forest, sure, but not all seeing or all knowing. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

I’m also really sick of this need D&D seem to have to make Jon the dumbest guy in the room. It was bad enough he and his men had to be rescued during BotB, but early this season he willingly let himself become a hostage of a foreign queen (with dragons!), then suggested and went on this harebrained suicide mission, and then when being rescued from his foolhardy escapade almost gets himself killed again by his bloodlust (only to be saved yet again by deus ex Benjen). And I hate this constant predilection to bring back characters only to kill them off in the same episode. I get it, D&D don’t like the books and only want to focus on their core characters, but they could at least be a little less lazy and put some thought into it. I doubt Jon will even mention or think about his uncle again. What a waste.

The only major thing I would’ve done differently would be to omit Benjen and have Rhaegal be the one to save Jon (and therefore also prove to Dany that she’s not the last Targaryan). Might put a crimp in their plans for romance, but I think it would’ve worked better dramatically. By the way, I didn’t see Rhaegal after Viserion was killed; was he somehow taken out too, or was HBO just being cheap and didn’t want to fork over anymore for the CGI?

 I still miss Richard Brake as the Night King.

I have a feeling....I might be wrong here...but the Night King touched Bran...now maybe this has fed off some magic of Brans and the three eyed raven to the NK. Mybe the ultimate final battle will be him vs Bran. "you wont walk again, but you will fly"

[fairwarging]

I hate that Dany and Jon's relationship is formed by other characters telling them it's forming. "I saw you staring at her." "Jon loves you!" Dany's "pining" look makes her look like a girl watching a romantic scene in a movie, not an experienced ruler falling in love in the midst of war.  Ygritte challenged Jon's stern and stuffy nature through her sexuality and wit, Dany in challenging him is even MORE stuffy.

Kit doesn't seem to have range but he has always being pretty good at portraying Jon (the looking sad even when he smiles actually suits his character), but Emilia needs a much larger range and she just doesn't have it. This couple is awful. 

[Yoren Luck]

26 minutes ago, fairwarging said:

Great work! But why no Drogon? To save money? Because he's injured? I think a lot of people would be upset if she rode another dragon because of the bond between dragon and rider in the books (not that the show needs to be the same)

thanks, yeah i just figured Drogon could use some time to heal and two dragons is less CGI than three.  But there's no reason really for Drogon not to have been included given other inconsistencies with healing time this season and in recent seasons.  I'm not even really a fan of what I wrote in terms of what I was actually hoping for this season, I just thought this scenario would have been more believable while still connecting all the necessary dots. I've seen lots of other ideas on this board the past few days that would also have worked.  It amazes me the writers/editors/show runners did not flesh this out more before running with it given all the other, more believable possibilities.

[Drayzen]

This entire plot line should not have happened. The idea to catch a wight is nothing more a plot to force Jon, Daenerys, and Cersei to all be in the same place for fan service. I'm not going to pretend to say I could write something better but there are so many other ways this story could have played out this season. I'd bet big money if I could that the books won't have this nonsense in it.

 

[fairwarging]

I was really disappointed by several shots in the series, shots that were clearly meant to be surprising. When Longclaw was sitting for a few beats you knew exactly what was going to happen. A hand was going to come out the water and grab the edge of the ice. Why? Because that's the first thing you see when someone exits the water, and Jon snow has plot armor now and can't die. 

Also the dragon's eye, closed for several beats. We knew it was going to open and be blue. Why? Because the wights pulled the dragon out of the water. They've turned many animals, and why would they want the dragon otherwise. I saw several publications call this a 'shocking moment' but for an ending shot it was so unsurprising that is was boring. I haven't read any leaks but I knew that a dragon was going to die and become a wight when Dany took all three of them. 

Why would she take all of them anyways? The others firing off without her command are a liability. She doesn't know how big Jon's army is, or that it's just a few guys, and she could easily kill them. Do the other two have a brain connection with her that they know when and where to fire? Also she fires from a distance, clearly without seeing who she's hitting, much like she did when the Lannisters and Dothraki were fighting.  Later she flies closer and we get a shot of where the men are, but she should know that before firing.  She could have turned the Jonsicle into a Jon Kebab. I know it's much more badass to have a huge flame come from the sky to show the dragons are here, but it's really dumb. 

[Gomagoti]

39 minutes ago, fairwarging said:

Great work! But why no Drogon? To save money? Because he's injured? I think a lot of people would be upset if she rode another dragon because of the bond between dragon and rider in the books (not that the show needs to be the same)

excellent,you should write the script from now on ,better than whatever idiot is doing it now.

 

EDIT: quoted wrong post, meant the one above yours fairwarging.

[fairwarging]

14 hours ago, Yoren Luck said:

thanks, yeah i just figured Drogon could use some time to heal and two dragons is less CGI than three.  But there's no reason really for Drogon not to have been included given other inconsistencies with healing time this season and in recent seasons.  I'm not even really a fan of what I wrote in terms of what I was actually hoping for this season, I just thought this scenario would have been more believable while still connecting all the necessary dots. I've seen lots of other ideas on this board the past few days that would also have worked.  It amazes me the writers/editors/show runners did not flesh this out more before running with it given all the other, more believable possibilities.

Well, I know what you were doing- you were rewriting the episode to be consistent and interesting. If you're a writer on a team, you often have to clean up others' messes, so it's good practice. I often do that in my head when I see Bad TV. I think many people here have commented that they still watch the show to study the Art of Bad TV. I watched Once Upon a Time for years even though I mostly despised it just to read a few funny hate blogs and think about what I would change. 

[fairwarging]

On 8/21/2017 at 10:27 PM, Steelborn said:

I don't think the Night's King would care that much about one of his minions when he has already hundreds of thousands and 7 (?) potential zombies right in front of him. 

Who knows? They could have got lucky and captured the Night King's boyfriend. But he seems like the type to have a new one every week, so it's a crapshoot. 

[Yoren Luck]

6 minutes ago, fairwarging said:

I hate that Dany and Jon's relationship is formed by other characters telling them it's forming. "I saw you staring at her." "Jon loves you!" Dany's "pining" look makes her look like a girl watching a romantic scene in a movie, not an experienced ruler falling in love in the midst of war.  Ygritte challenged Jon's stern and stuffy nature through her sexuality and wit, Dany in challenging him is even MORE stuffy.

Kit doesn't seem to have range but he has always being pretty good at portraying Jon (the looking sad even when he smiles actually suits his character), but Emilia needs a much larger range and she just doesn't have it. This couple is awful. 

I am not a fan of this either, and given the accelerated pace of this season, it doesn't feel believable at all.  I'm not sure of the exact time frame, but it seems like Jon met Dany like two weeks and have spoken to each other like four times.  So we are looking at some sort of love at first sight type of thing for Jon, with no reciprocation of those feelings by Dany until she learns that Jon apparently loves her.  It just feels forced.

For the record though, I am not in favor of the two of them getting together anyway so this could be well done and I'd still probably gripe about it.  I have been wishing the whole time that Jon finds out about his parentage before they 'fall in love' so they realize they already have a relationship through lineage and therefore a true reason to support each other without needed a romance shoe horned into the story.  I'd much rather this be a Luke and Leia Skywalker scenario than a years long buildup to another incestuous relationship in the story.  Plus, didn't Jon in season one (and book 1) admit that he couldn't sleep with anyone since he didn't know who is mother was.  Incest was clearly an issue for him in the early going and I think was a factor in his willingness to accept the Nights Watch vows.  Ygritte is obviously a break from this, but that was (imo) a big factor in why he fell in love with Ygritte, since he knew there was no possible way his mother could have been a wildling.  

Anyway, if this story ends up being an 8 season long saga between two incestuous couples (which I am guessing it will) I am not going to be as pleased since the Lannister twincest was such a driving force behind all the plot and the Jon/Dany incest is so easily avoidable in the story.  

 

[fairwarging]

On 8/21/2017 at 3:36 PM, Cas Stark said:

Why did we need a stupid as fuck bear wight in the first place?  Because the show has replaced sex and nudity with OMG CGI!!!  Wooha?

To be fair, I'm not even a high fantasy fan (I prefer the non fantastic elements of the show) but the CGI dragonwork was the best part of a very, very bad episode. They look realistic and great. But the bear didn't interest me for some reason. Like many of the recent battles, it was shot in a confusing way. 

I really hope we'll get on set footage of the Snowicide Squad back to back fighting men in green leotards with rubber balls all over them. I got bored so that was what I was imagining that whole sequence while they were doing their badass poses. Seriously, whenever Beric pulled out his sword I felt like I was in a video game. 

[fairwarging]

14 hours ago, Yoren Luck said:

I am not a fan of this either, and given the accelerated pace of this season, it doesn't feel believable at all.  I'm not sure of the exact time frame, but it seems like Jon met Dany like two weeks and have spoken to each other like four times.  So we are looking at some sort of love at first sight type of thing for Jon, with no reciprocation of those feelings by Dany until she learns that Jon apparently loves her.  It just feels forced.

For the record though, I am not in favor of the two of them getting together anyway so this could be well done and I'd still probably gripe about it.  I have been wishing the whole time that Jon finds out about his parentage before they 'fall in love' so they realize they already have a relationship through lineage and therefore a true reason to support each other without needed a romance shoe horned into the story.  I'd much rather this be a Luke and Leia Skywalker scenario than a years long buildup to another incestuous relationship in the story.  Plus, didn't Jon in season one (and book 1) admit that he couldn't sleep with anyone since he didn't know who is mother was.  Incest was clearly an issue for him in the early going and I think was a factor in his willingness to accept the Nights Watch vows.  Ygritte is obviously a break from this, but that was (imo) a big factor in why he fell in love with Ygritte, since he knew there was no possible way his mother could have been a wildling.  

Anyway, if this story ends up being an 8 season long saga between two incestuous couples (which I am guessing it will) I am not going to be as pleased since the Lannister twincest was such a driving force behind all the plot and the Jon/Dany incest is so easily avoidable in the story.  

 

I agree, I'm not a fan of the couple in general either because it's too on the nose. Ice plus fire. The two big eligible fan favorite hero rulers we've been rooting pair up because, well, of course.  I feel like the whole rest of the series has been set up: they will defeat the white walkers, Cersei will get hers (but maybe not die because D&D either love her or paid big bucks for Lena Headey and they're going to get their Headeysworth godammit!) Dany will sit on the throne, maybe she or Jon will die, but all in all it feels very predictable.

Most of the characters besides Jon, Dany, Cersei, the NK, and the dragons now feel like filler or supportive best buds who have forgotten their previous personal interests, cares, or families to make witty remarks or praise our heroes. Except the Winterfell sideshow, which I imagine will be wrapped up in the next episode. 

As for the relationship, I really hope GRRM doesn't do this. I actually don't mind the incest thing, because it's kind of weird and otherworldly, but from what I've heard GRRM is not an incest fan. 

[fairwarging]

On 8/22/2017 at 1:30 AM, Jaime4Brienne said:

I turn my mind off when I watch the show now and enjoy it a lot more but two things sprang out at me. 1. Dany goes on and on and on about the dragons being her children...she even breastfed them for god sake!! Then one of her "children" is killed right before her eyes and we get...blankness...total blankness. Then she's up in the tower (looking for Jon I think, not mourning) and we get more blankness. This is one of the three children she (supposedly) is ever going to have and just....nothing... Also I am getting really sick of her in general. 

2.If they have a sword that gives off heat/flame whenever Beric wants it to...why are they freezing? Why aren't they melting the ice with it? It makes 0 sense.

The Ayra/Sansa scene I liked because Sansa always acts to high and mighty and I loved Ayra taking her down a peg.

She could have taken her down a peg if she had used logical arguments like "Why didn't you tell Jon about the Vale Army?" But it seemed like she more freaked her and disgusted her by threatening to cut off her face! 

[darmody]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Which is creepier... Alien (the first one with just one alien you only half-see) or Aliens where you see hundreds of 'em and know pretty much everything about them? Why is Lovecraft so damn good? Because he never fully lifted the veil of mistery.

Unlike its predecessor, Aliens is more of a sci-fi-action-war movie than a sci-fi-horror movie. Which is fine, because it's a very good action war movie. 

If Game of Thrones wants to abandon fantasy-pseudohistorical-political-drama for fantasy-action, they could at least do good fantasy-action. 

[darmody]

11 hours ago, Snormund said:

Name a character Jon has interacted with that he DOESN'T have more chemistry with than Daedpan. Seriously he probably had more chemistry with Stannis 

Well, they shared the Red Witch (in a manner of speaking). He *definitely* had more of the appropriate kind of chemistry with her.

You'd think all they'd have to do is stick two attractive, young actors in a room, tell them they're hot for eachother, and yell, "Action!" The fans would fill in their motivations for them. 

But no. I watched a montage of their lovey-doveyness on YouTube out of morbid curiosity, and it was one shot after another of blank faces. They lacked the emotion of a marginally hungry man looking at a cheese sandwich. 

[darmody]

10 hours ago, NickStark2494 said:

The show has no idea what a strong female character should be. The epitome of their disastrous handling of that concept was Ellaria telling Doran that weak men would never rule Dorne again, as she watched him die.

They did an okay job with matriarchs like Cat and Olestra. (And Cersei before Season Five, when she wasn't on her forced redemption arc or stark-raving mad.) Both of whom were content to be members of their families and play to their strengths. Neither felt compelled to be a Strong, Independent Woman who, for instance, almost gets her army whiped out and her brother-cousin killed because she doesn't want to divulge the secret of a giant army loyal to her in the vicinity because reasons. 

(That actually would've been an interesting storyline for Sansa if she was trying to kill Jon and rule the North. It would make sense at least. This season's storyline and the fact that she still listens to Littlefinger would make a lot more sense, too. As it was, it reeked of we have to give her something to do.)

[darmody]

8 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I had some flashbacks of BoB during the episodes. Jon seems always ready for a last battle, then he wouldn't have had all these responsibilities people give him for whatever reasons. He just "I just die heroic death here. Shit, I was saved again!"

Jon Snow knows nothing, including the fact that he's always trying to get killed. He just does it, because Starks are like that. (Quick tempers, slow minds.) Even ones who are Targaryens. 

Last season there was a brilliant parody of Battle of the Bastards with Jon as Leroy Jenkins. What if Leroy Jenkins somehow lived long enough for his team to win every engagement despite him? That's Jon. 

He's Leroy Jenkins-ing his way to being the greatest hero in the history of Westeros.