Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[Raksha 2014]

17 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I do wonder about the theory that they're playing it up for LF.

I'm not sure why I don't find the theory as workable as it does make sense.

I guess since the two of them have never really had much of a heart-to-heart, I can't see them tag-teaming just yet, but it would be very interesting to see that, if it is true.

They would make a killer team, though. Like, imagine.

 

It's doubtful that Sansa is playing it up for Littlefinger; that was real fear and sorrow in her eyes when there was no one other than Arya to see it.  

 

[greensleeves]

7 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I really don't want to labor the point anymore and as you said this is off topic on a Show discussion thread.  As to the bolded part, you can interpret the text any which way you want but my interpretation is that Sansa's arc in the books is not about getting home. Far from it. She longs for the safety of home and that's it. She's been traumatized so much that she wants to be somewhere safe and that can be Highgarden and with Willas and does not have to be WF.  She forsook her plans with Dontos to go home when she thought she could go to Highgarden instead. As to LF promising her Harry Hardying, and the Vale, and WF, we all know that's not going to happen. Sansa probably even recognizes that. Her concerns are getting Harry to fall in love with her. This is where I find Sansa's arc again disturbing. How does she expect Harry to be Lord of the Vale with Robin still alive? Also, we'll probably have Davos back with Rickon and the North rallying behind him. And there is the matter of Robb's will. He most definitely disinherited Sansa and probably named Jon his heir. So no, LF is not getting Sansa WF and I don't think she is foolish enough to believe that. 

Well, I'm obviously not going to convince you with extensive textual evidence. I'll just say that we don't know how the Harry/SweetRobin thing will play out, but I don't think Harry will turn out to be significant or married to Sansa (He probably would have been included in the show in that case) but I do think that Sansa will get that vale army (just like in the show) and take it to Winterfell. I think it likely that her book-storyline will re-merge with her show-storyline there.  The show supposedly is going towards a similar ending to the books and to me there's no way she ends up back in the Vale.  As for Rickon... well his wolf's name is 'Shaggydog'. 

I'm not going to respond any more to this... it's way off topic.

[Pandean]

4 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

It's doubtful that Sansa is playing it up for Littlefinger; that was real fear and sorrow in her eyes when there was no one other than Arya to see it.  

 

Yeah, Sansa looked terrified. Which, I mean, makes sense. Also sad since I suspect the reunion she thought of would not go like this.

[teej6]

15 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Well, I'm obviously not going to convince you with extensive textual evidence. I'll just say that we don't know how the Harry/SweetRobin thing will play out, but I don't think Harry will turn out to be significant or married to Sansa (He probably would have been included in the show in that case) but I do think that Sansa will get that vale army (just like in the show) and take it to Winterfell. I think it likely that her book-storyline will re-merge with her show-storyline there.  The show supposedly is going towards a similar ending to the books and to me there's no way she ends up back in the Vale.  As for Rickon... well his wolf's name is 'Shaggydog'. 

I'm not going to respond any more to this... it's way off topic.

The textual evidence you referred to is neither extensive nor convincing to your argument. And I'm not sure that Sansa's arc in the books will be merge with her show storyline. Sansa will probably take the Vale army to the North but not to reclaim WF. I'm pretty sure WF will be reclaimed by either Stannis or Jon before that. I'm going to bet it's Stannis cause I believe that D&D just transplanted Stannis WF storyline to Jon on the show. Sansa may end up taking the Vale army to fight the WWs and the army of the dead. And Rickon will probably die but not in the way he died on the show. As to the show and books having a similar ending, it's most likely that they'll have the same ending in terms of defeating the WWs and who sits the IT. 

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

The textual evidence you referred is neither extensive nor convincing to your argument. And I'm not as certain as you that Sansa's arc in the books will be merge with her show storyline. Sansa will probably take the Vale army to the North but not to reclaim WF. I'm pretty sure WF will be reclaimed by either Stannis or Jon before that. Sansa may end up taking the Vale army to fight the WWs and the army of the dead. And Rickon will probably die but not in the way he died on the show. As to the show and books having a similar ending, it's most likely that they'll have the same ending in terms of defeating the WWs and who sits the IT. 

I definitely can't see the show and the books going specific similar routes. I think the end game will be the same and the plot will loosely be the same in regard to major characters (I don't believe that Stannis, Shireen, Rickon, etc. will survive in the books for the end) but the way they get there will probably be different.

Two very different creatures and I try to take that into account. I like both for different reasons.

[teej6]

16 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I definitely can't see the show and the books going specific similar routes. I think the end game will be the same and the plot will loosely be the same in regard to major characters (I don't believe that Stannis, Shireen, Rickon, etc. will survive in the books for the end) but the way they get there will probably be different.

Two very different creatures and I try to take that into account. I like both for different reasons.

I agree. I too don't see Stannis, Shireen or Rickon surviving in the end. But I also don't see how D&D will be able to manage to have the same storylines for most of the characters as GRRM will have in the books cause they've made far too many changes already. For example, Stannis most likely will be the one retaking WF and he most definitely won't be burning Shereen for good weather.  Either he takes WF and then meets up with Shireen to burn her or he's dead and he won't be burning Shereen. It can't be both ways as Shereen is in Castle Black and Stannis is out there fighting the Boltons. All these little changes add up (what GRRM calls the butterfly effect) and I don't think it will be very easy for D&D to get all the characters endings to match up with GRRM's ending. But as you say, I suppose the plot could end up being loosely the same for many of the characters.  

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

I agree. I too don't see Stannis, Shireen or Rickon surviving in the end. But I also don't see how D&D will be able to manage to have the same storylines for most of the characters as GRRM will have in the books cause they've made far too many changes already. For example, Stannis most likely will be the one retaking WF and he most definitely won't be burning Shereen for good weather.  Either he takes WF and then meets up with Shireen to burn her or he's dead and he won't be burning Shereen. It can't be both ways as Shereen is in Castle Black and Stannis is out there fighting the Boltons. All these little changes add up (what GRRM calls the butterfly effect) and I don't think it will be very easy for D&D to get all the characters endings to match up with GRRM's ending. But as you say, I suppose the plot could end up being loosely the same for many of the characters.  

I think ultimately, the most major of characters (Stark kids, Dany, Tyrion, etc.) will end up close to their actual End Game but the routes they take may differ.

Like, I think Sansa's show arc could in some way be similar to her arc with LF and Harry and I think she will end up as Lady of Winterfell (mainly because I can't see Arya being LoW, Bran's the 3ER, and Rickon will probably die), I can definitely see Arya leaving the FM, and all of that.

In the topic of Sansa, since this is that thread, I believe she'll probably not be in the best...arrangement with LF and Harry (though I doubt it will be Ramsay levels of awful) and she with the KotV will take back Winterfell (I'm not sure Stannis will succeed at that). I think she'll probably be the LoW as well. Everything else is up in the air.

[teej6]

20 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I think ultimately, the most major of characters (Stark kids, Dany, Tyrion, etc.) will end up close to their actual End Game but the routes they take may differ.

Like, I think Sansa's show arc could in some way be similar to her arc with LF and Harry and I think she will end up as Lady of Winterfell (mainly because I can't see Arya being LoW, Bran's the 3ER, and Rickon will probably die), I can definitely see Arya leaving the FM, and all of that.

In the topic of Sansa, since this is that thread, I believe she'll probably not be in the best...arrangement with LF and Harry (though I doubt it will be Ramsay levels of awful) and she with the KotV will take back Winterfell (I'm not sure Stannis will succeed at that). I think she'll probably be the LoW as well. Everything else is up in the air.

Sansa may end up being Lady of Winterfell but not because she takes it back. I feel Stannis will be the one to do that. He has to survive the Battle for Winterfell if he is to end up burning Shireen in the books. And if he survives, the Boltons will be defeated cause there's no way Stannis is turning back. Besides we have Manderly waiting to turncloak and decimate the Freys in the North. And in WF, the only reason Roose does not have open revolt is because the Northern Lords care for FArya. Once they know she's gone there's no reason for them to stay loyal. Before Sansa's Vale arc is resolved, WF will be retaken. So no, I don't think she'll be the one to take back WF. 

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Sansa may end up being Lady of Winterfell but not because she takes it back. I feel Stannis will be the one to do that. He has to survive the Battle for Winterfell if he is to end up burning Shireen in the books. And if he survives, the Boltons will be defeated cause there's no way Stannis is turning back. Besides we have Manderly waiting to turncloak and decimate the Freys in the North. And in WF, the only reason Roose does not have open revolt is because the Northern Lords care for FArya. Once they know she's gone there's no reason for them to stay loyal. Before Sansa's Vale arc is resolved WF will be retaken So no, I don't think she'll be the one to take back WF. 

Either Stannis dies an something happens to Shireen (I could totally see certain people killing Shireen at the Wall)

Or you're right

I'm good either way.

 

[Mladen]

Couple of thoughts...

1. I was not convinced that girls, both of them, are playing LF until she sent Brienne away. I don't think she planned to use Brienne against Arya, she is smart enough to know that could never work, I think it is more that Sansa wants Brienne out of WF so the girls would continue to play the Game until LF is completely caught.

2. Sansa is loyal to her family. Even her conversation with LF shows that. She constantly speaks about Jon. "Loyal to Jon", "Jon's army". For a split of a second, I don't believe she is going to betray North or Jon. Simply, there is nothing pointing in that direction and we should just all end with this "Sansa is traitor" nonsense.

3. I don't think Sansa saying that Robb and Ned died because of stupid mistakes makes her superior or that she herself feels any superior to them. She just wanted to warn Jon about the consequences of mistakes. Simply, it is their turn now and their mistakes could end the Starks for good. Sansa understands this and she wants to work with her brother. As she has been working since.

4. As for how Sansa will get to WF, I think we may see the same scene from the TV show. She may "Save" the day with Knights of the Vale and that will be her reunion with Jon. I can imagine Jon's POV to see her in the snow surrounded by Knights of Vale. 

[Stormourne]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

Couple of thoughts...

1. I was not convinced that girls, both of them, are playing LF until she sent Brienne away. I don't think she planned to use Brienne against Arya, she is smart enough to know that could never work, I think it is more that Sansa wants Brienne out of WF so the girls would continue to play the Game until LF is completely caught.

2. Sansa is loyal to her family. Even her conversation with LF shows that. She constantly speaks about Jon. "Loyal to Jon", "Jon's army". For a split of a second, I don't believe she is going to betray North or Jon. Simply, there is nothing pointing in that direction and we should just all end with this "Sansa is traitor" nonsense.

3. I don't think Sansa saying that Robb and Ned died because of stupid mistakes makes her superior or that she herself feels any superior to them. She just wanted to warn Jon about the consequences of mistakes. Simply, it is their turn now and their mistakes could end the Starks for good. Sansa understands this and she wants to work with her brother. As she has been working since.

4. As for how Sansa will get to WF, I think we may see the same scene from the TV show. She may "Save" the day with Knights of the Vale and that will be her reunion with Jon. I can imagine Jon's POV to see her in the snow surrounded by Knights of Vale. 

I think Arya is just being stubborn without realizing it. Since she can read people's faces, I assume she knows Sansa's internal want of power, even if she tries to deny it. It's a thought that Littlefinger instilled in her, and she can't get rid of it. Sensing that, I think Arya just mistrusts Sansa to the point where she is unwilling to accept her "genuine" thoughts about wanting to protect the family. 

I'm intrigued by this plot.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I think Arya is just being stubborn without realizing it. Since she can read people's faces, I assume she knows Sansa's internal want of power, even if she tries to deny it. It's a thought that Littlefinger instilled in her, and she can't get rid of it. Sensing that, I think Arya just mistrusts Sansa to the point where she is unwilling to accept her "genuine" thoughts about wanting to protect the family. 

I'm intrigued by this plot.

If we take this such as, this is the worst story in the show. And that speaks volumes. On the other hand, if we leave a space for girls eing much smarter than they let on (and we know they are supposed to be), that is where things start to be interesting.

[teej6]

12 minutes ago, Risto said:

 

4. As for how Sansa will get to WF, I think we may see the same scene from the TV show. She may "Save" the day with Knights of the Vale and that will be her reunion with Jon. I can imagine Jon's POV to see her in the snow surrounded by Knights of Vale. 

The Knights of the Vale's Gandalf moment is such a deus ex machina that I doubt GRRM will do it. It's so D&D. Sansa will probably bring the Vale army to the North but not to retake WF but to join the fight against the WWs. And I believe Stannis will defeat the Boltons and will be the one to retake WF.

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The first person she should be adult enough to admit how much she chased the wrong things and was fully ready to betray her family for is Arya.

I agree.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Sure, it was child-fight, but that's pretty much the last memory she has of Sansa, aside from her being present at Ned's execution, and Yoren preventing her from seeing Sansa fall apart and faint.

She did not see her faint but she was looking at the platform when Sansa started screaming and had to be restrained. but it seems like the only thing she remembers is her pretty dress and hair and not her screams.

 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The show never had Sansa for once admit that she was a stupid, conceited girl back then who could throw her family under the bus, though she has in the books already.

not true.

"I came here every day when I was a girl. I prayed to be somewhere else. back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl."

 

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

She stands on her sister calling her Lady Stark, while she herself never even uses "Your Grace" to Jon.

She was joking. she laughed after she said it.

 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And Sansa was actually lying and dishonest about the letter she sent to Robb. Sure she was naive, a child, and stupid and manipulated by Cersei at the time of that letter, but she was not under durress. She still wanted to marry Joffrey at the time, and believed her father committed treason.

She wanted to marry Joffrey but she was also worried about her father and wanted to help him. so she wrote the letter for herself and for Ned.

Sansa: what will happen to him?

Cersei: that depends.

Sansa: on? on what?

Cersei: on your brother... and on you.

 

I understand why Arya is suspicious of Sansa. I think she should've reminded Sansa of Trident accident to see her reaction, warn her not to make the same mistake again and talk to her about her concerns. but threatening to peel her face off after she found those faces in her bag was just mean.

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The Knights of the Vale's Gandalf moment is such a deus ex machina that I doubt GRRM will do it. It's so D&D. Sansa will probably bring the Vale army to the North but not to retake WF but to join the fight against the WWs. And I believe Stannis will defeat the Boltons and will be the one to retake WF.

Deus ex machina can work in books if done properly, The problem with TV show was not that it was Gandalf moment, but that it involved rather strange behavior from all parties, especially Sansa, to make it work. I do believe Sansa will be heading North, I even think LF is going to die in WF. Not completely sure about the details, though  

[Pandean]

The faces in the messenger bag until the bed was just....I sincerely hope they were placed there so Sansa could find them on purpose

I have a question:

 

since Jon bent the knee is he taking the title of Lord of Winterfell or is that still Sansa's?

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

The faces in the messenger bag until the bed was just....I sincerely hope they were placed there so Sansa could find them on purpose

I have a question:

 

since Jon bent the knee is he taking the title of Lord of Winterfell or is that still Sansa's?

This is what I hated about him bending the knee. Now, what is his plan? To be Jon Stark and claim WF for himself. The show's canon is that, now that Bran abdicated, Sansa is the heir, and Lady of WF. So, unless Jon wants to usurp Sansa, I don't see him having any title or authority to order people to bend the knee. Not that Jon needs any title, or wants it. It just makes entire situation completely ridiculous.

I wonder how no one actually thought of uniting North and South through wedding. 

[Gaz0680]

10 minutes ago, Pandean said:

The faces in the messenger bag until the bed was just....I sincerely hope they were placed there so Sansa could find them on purpose

I have a question:

 

since Jon bent the knee is he taking the title of Lord of Winterfell or is that still Sansa's?

I don't think Jon has actually bent the knee yet, he just talked about it and said he will. Its not a done deal yet.

If he does bend the knee, then I do believe yes he would be Lord of Winterfell still (remember, Dany previously offered to make him Warden of the North). Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell and in control of the North in Jons absence...same thing still applies if Jon bends the knee unless he doesnt want to be Lord of WInterfell or his Queen Daenerys wants him serving her elsewhere instead.

For example, if she wanted him by her side to help take Kings Landing and then stay on as one of her council members after, it would be difficult for him to refuse so in that case would probably have to give up WF and the North also.

[Stormourne]

15 minutes ago, Pandean said:

The faces in the messenger bag until the bed was just....I sincerely hope they were placed there so Sansa could find them on purpose

I have a question:

 

since Jon bent the knee is he taking the title of Lord of Winterfell or is that still Sansa's?

He did bend the knee, but that is a temporary thing. Remember that Jon is a true-born son of Rhaegar Targaryen, which gives him a better claim than Daenerys. I think if this knowledge went public, people would flock to Jon's banner rather than Daenerys since he was born in Westeros, fought for Westeros, and died for Westeros

And once Daenerys learns about his heritage, she will feel threatened? And since she is portrayed as developing feelings for our King "in" the North, I doubt they will go to war over the Iron Throne. Jon does not even want power like all those other characters. So the most plausible solution to this conflict is marriage. Not only would this unify the North and South once more, but give Daenerys an heir.

I think they will have sex on the boat back to King's Landing. And this is what will seal their fate. Since they both believe she is infertile, he won't be on his pull-out game, so to speak. She might get pregnant since they are both touched by magic, share dragon-blood which is magical, and... plot. And once Jon's true heritage is revealed, there might be a moment where everyone believes a civil war could break out, but then Daenerys could learn she is pregnant.

We know that Jon is an honorable man, who - in the books - has stated he would never father a bastard. He will feel honor-bound to Daenerys, and both their advisers would suggest marriage over war.

This is one of the more plausible ways they could get both characters to marry. I'm disappointed in people for not realizing this. Daenerys needs an heir, Jon has the better claim, and marriage is the only way to avert a civil war.

[winter daughter]

double post.