Mladen Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said: I don't think Jon has actually bent the knee yet, he just talked about it and said he will. Its not a done deal yet. If he does bend the knee, then I do believe yes he would be Lord of Winterfell still (remember, Dany previously offered to make him Warden of the North). Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell and in control of the North in Jons absence...same thing still applies if Jon bends the knee unless he doesnt want to be Lord of WInterfell or his Queen Daenerys wants him serving her elsewhere instead. No, Sansa is Lady of WF with or withput Jon. He is King of the North and she is Lady of WF now that Bran has abdicated. So, unless Dany wants to separate the title of Warden and Lord/Lady of Winterfell, the title of Warden goes to Lord/Lady of WF, in this case, Sansa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter daughter Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Gaz0680 said: Sansa is only Lady of Winterfell and in control of the North in Jons absence...same thing still applies if Jon bends the knee unless he doesnt want to be Lord of WInterfell or his Queen Daenerys wants him serving her elsewhere instead. She is Lady of Winterfell because she is a Stark. Jon has no claim over winterfell. 48 minutes ago, Risto said: 4. As for how Sansa will get to WF, I think we may see the same scene from the TV show. She may "Save" the day with Knights of the Vale and that will be her reunion with Jon. I can imagine Jon's POV to see her in the snow surrounded by Knights of Vale. I think she'll save the North with food and supplies not an army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz0680 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, Risto said: No, Sansa is Lady of WF with or withput Jon. He is King of the North and she is Lady of WF now that Bran has abdicated. So, unless Dany wants to separate the title of Warden and Lord/Lady of Winterfell, the title of Warden goes to Lord/Lady of WF, in this case, Sansa She may hold Winterfell (and even then, I think WF is still his on return regardless) but she doesn't command the North without Jon. As Jon said, "until I return, the North is yours". This flat out tells us, when Jon returns, the North goes back under his command. Him bending the knee does not change that. When Daenerys first asked Jon to bend the knee, she offered to make him Warden of the North and her other line about "with a Stark in Winterfell, and a Targaryen in the Iron Throne" suggests that his seat of ruling the North would be WF. So whether Sansa holds the title of "Lady of Winterfell" or not, everything suggests she would not be the one in charge while Jon is there regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 22 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said: She may hold Winterfell (and even then, I think WF is still his on return regardless) but she doesn't command the North without Jon. As Jon said, "until I return, the North is yours". This flat out tells us, when Jon returns, the North goes back under his command. Him bending the knee does not change that. When Daenerys first asked Jon to bend the knee, she offered to make him Warden of the North and her other line about "with a Stark in Winterfell, and a Targaryen in the Iron Throne" suggests that his seat of ruling the North would be WF. So whether Sansa holds the title of "Lady of Winterfell" or not, everything suggests she would not be the one in charge while Jon is there regardless. They separated the titles so Jon is the King and Sansa is the Lady of WF Winterfell is not Jon's, it is Sansa's. Basically Jon is the King without the seat. Yes he is in charge of North with Sansa acting as Regent. In hierarchy of North, it is him then her. As for WF, that one is hers. He has nothing with it. That is why Dany's proposal is idiotic from Jon's POV. Simply, if he wants to be Warden he would have to usurp Sansa. That said, I doubt Jon cares about titles and I doubt Sansa wants any strife between her and her King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I agree it seems pretty clear that Sansa means to murder Arya (or at least seriously considering it and wants the option kept open) the question is whether she's vastly underestimate Arya's, er, survival skills/instincts. At this point she knows Arya has become a formidable fighter, but those are exactly the kind of people LF has taught her to treat like pawns. The faces probably threw her and have her asking questions and I'm not sure what her course of action will be now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Risto said: They separated the titles so Jon is the King and Sansa is the Lady of WF Winterfell is not Jon's, it is Sansa's. Basically Jon is the King without the seat. Yes he is in charge of North with Sansa acting as Regent. In hierarchy of North, it is him then her. As for WF, that one is hers. He has nothing with it. That is why Dany's proposal is idiotic from Jon's POV. Simply, if he wants to be Warden he would have to usurp Sansa. That said, I doubt Jon cares about titles and I doubt Sansa wants any strife between her and her King. Not my interpretation. She was surprised he was leaving her in charge, which would not be the case were she the unquestioned possessor of Winterfell. I think he's more treating it like it was with Ned and Cat, ie she has standing and is an option to take charge when he leaves, but the real authority is actually his. I just don't think he cares to much for the formality or trappings of royalty, which is probably a preview for another similar dynamic down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz0680 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Risto said: They separated the titles so Jon is the King and Sansa is the Lady of WF Winterfell is not Jon's, it is Sansa's. Basically Jon is the King without the seat. Yes he is in charge of North with Sansa acting as Regent. In hierarchy of North, it is him then her. As for WF, that one is hers. He has nothing with it. That is why Dany's proposal is idiotic from Jon's POV. Simply, if he wants to be Warden he would have to usurp Sansa. That said, I doubt Jon cares about titles and I doubt Sansa wants any strife between her and her King. I disagree. While ever Jon is in Winterfell, HE is in charge of Winterfell, not Sansa. If Jon is King of the North or Warden of the North, most of his time when not at war or travelling as duty demands would be spent at Winterfell. I dont think he would have to usurp Sansa to become Warden. Is there any evidence in show that the Lord/Lady of Winterfell is always automatically Warden of the North or that they can't be two different people?? Roose Bolton was named Warden of the North after Red Wedding (at Tywin's behest) but was not Lord of Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, James Arryn said: I agree it seems pretty clear that Sansa means to murder Arya Well, I don't really see it, but now that Arya has directly threatened her life... Anyway, this conflict is so artifical and character ruining, especially for Arya, that I cannot even. Also, I almost died laughing at the 'I only need yor face to become you'. Yes, sweetie, that and like 25 centimeters of height, among others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 16 minutes ago, James Arryn said: I agree it seems pretty clear that Sansa means to murder Arya Agree with who? I am sorry, but this is rather ridiculous. I honestly doubt that Sansa has ever even thought the things people here attribute to her mindset. 6 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said: I disagree. While ever Jon is in Winterfell, HE is in charge of Winterfell, not Sansa. If Jon is King of the North or Warden of the North, most of his time when not at war or travelling as duty demands would be spent at Winterfell. I dont think he would have to usurp Sansa to become Warden. Is there any evidence in show that the Lord/Lady of Winterfell is always automatically Warden of the North or that they can't be two different people?? Roose Bolton was named Warden of the North after Red Wedding (at Tywin's behest) but was not Lord of Winterfell. Yeah, I am not questioning his authority. I am just saying that Winterfell, according to certain rules, is hers. But, if he does want to be a Stark, Warden of North, Lord of Winterfell, that would mean usurping Ned's kids - in this case Sansa. That said, I don't see it happening or being at any point relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny- Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I don't get why sansa keeps little finger around.she knows what he's capable of (killing joffrey,lysa,selling her to the boltons).She knows his motives,sitting on the iron throne with her beside him. I don't think the knights of the vale are fond of LF ,if he gets booted from WF i'm sure they will stick around. i think LF's days are numbered and the Sansa/Arya fued will go up in smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elder brother jonothor dar Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 8 hours ago, direwoofwoof said: Exactly! I think Sansa sent Brianne away so she could not protect Arya, but Sansa does not really know what Arya is capable of, even though she has seen her fight and heard about the stories. Sansa may be politically cunning, but Arya is ruthless. Don't F with Arya! I could see a situation where Sansa or more likely LF slips her some poisson like the Tyrs of Lys and Arya comes out and says something along the lines of Hmm Tyrs of Lys has no taste while drinking the last drop and walking away unaffected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Tianzi said: Well, I don't really see it, but now that Arya has directly threatened her life... Anyway, this conflict is so artifical and character ruining, especially for Arya, that I cannot even. Also, I almost died laughing at the 'I only need yor face to become you'. Yes, sweetie, that and like 25 centimeters of height, among others. Note as well that in the Behind the Episode D&D don't even mention Arya's point of view in that scene. Its all about how Sansa feels scared. No explanation for Arya's thinking or motivation which was the more confusing of the two. We also have to consider that Arya threatened Sansa after Sansa threatened her. She was freaked out by the faces, then Arya catches her and Sansa says 'I have men loyal to me'. You don't say that if its not a threat of violence. It all goes both ways. They are both being stupid and both not thinking like they should be. Littlefinger, as usual sprinkles the truth in with the manipulation. Everything Arya has said is about never betraying her family. That is why she's annoyed in the first place. Sansa doesn't hear that in her fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Arya was well within her rights to get tough with Sansa. She was snooping in Arya's room and when she was caught dared to threaten Arya by telling her about all the men at Winterfell loyal to her. Sansa needed a lesson in whom she was dealing with, and got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand11751 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I actually giggled when Arya expressed the hate which Sansa haters have long felt. The dynamic between the sisters again feels more real than a faux fight between Sansa and Jon. That said, if Arya had really planned to do something with that letter, she would have done it. Skews toward faux nonsense, but because of their history, I didn't dismiss the argument outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Sand11751 said: I actually giggled when Arya expressed the hate which Sansa haters have long felt. The dynamic between the sisters again feels more real than a faux fight between Sansa and Jon. That said, if Arya had really planned to do something with that letter, she would have done it. Skews toward faux nonsense, but because of their history, I didn't dismiss the argument outright. The letter is an insurance policy. Sansa moves against Jon. Sansa gets exposed. If Sansa does not intend to move against Jon at any point, she should have no fear about the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 18 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said: Note as well that in the Behind the Episode D&D don't even mention Arya's point of view in that scene. Its all about how Sansa feels scared. No explanation for Arya's thinking or motivation which was the more confusing of the two. We also have to consider that Arya threatened Sansa after Sansa threatened her. She was freaked out by the faces, then Arya catches her and Sansa says 'I have men loyal to me'. You don't say that if its not a threat of violence. It all goes both ways. They are both being stupid and both not thinking like they should be. Littlefinger, as usual sprinkles the truth in with the manipulation. Everything Arya has said is about never betraying her family. That is why she's annoyed in the first place. Sansa doesn't hear that in her fear. You mean "I am so scared of you that I have to threat you"? Sansa didn't threat Arya, because she hates her but because she is afraid. And can anyone blame her? Arya's behavior is far threatening here than Sansa's. And threatening Sansa is BETRAYING family. Undermining Sansa's authority with Northern lords is BETRAYING family. Again, if we take this point blank, then Arya's behavior is damaging Stark cause much more than anything Sansa has done so far. That said, we have enough to suspect that something else is going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said: The letter is an insurance policy. Sansa moves against Jon. Sansa gets exposed. If Sansa does not intend to move against Jon at any point, she should have no fear about the letter. The letter is a dangerous thing and we see Sansa being more worried about the consequences for Jon (you know, the one Arya is supposedly siding with) than she is about her position. So, Arya is working here against the family as she doesn't see Sansa's loyalty to Jon. For someone who is supposed to be so perceptive, she missed a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I've slept on it and came up with some more thoughts.. Sansa sending Brienne away is a very bad omen. Brienne would stop or at least try to stop Sansa from turning against Arya Brienne almost certainly dies in KL ( Cersei kills Brienne, setting Jamie off against her) Sansa will probably start the heel turn around the time Jon and Danny fully "ship" LF knows a Danny-Jon alliance is bad news for him Jon doesn't have incentive to attack Sansa unless Sansa were to hurt Arya. It would be bloody awful, but if Arya does another aggressive move on her, I think Sansa will fight back Sansa sneakily going after the letter was a terrible idea. Now Arya knows Sansa doesn't trust her, and vice versa. I don't see the showrunners creating this convoluted a plot just to kill LF. Killing LF removes all political tension and still too many episodes left for the that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Risto said: You mean "I am so scared of you that I have to threat you"? Sansa didn't threat Arya, because she hates her but because she is afraid. And can anyone blame her? Arya's behavior is far threatening here than Sansa's. And threatening Sansa is BETRAYING family. Undermining Sansa's authority with Northern lords is BETRAYING family. Again, if we take this point blank, then Arya's behavior is damaging Stark cause much more than anything Sansa has done so far. That said, we have enough to suspect that something else is going on here. 'Fear makes people do unreasonable things' It doesn't matter why Sansa threatened her, the faces are freaky. The fact is, she did. And Arya in turn showed her that her threats were empty. She went too far but both girls are not behaving reasonably. This is what is set up in the first place. Arya is full of fury and so is being unreasonable. Sansa is full of fear and so is being unreasonable. BOTH ARE AS BAD AS EACH OTHER. Arya hasn't said anything at all to the Northern Lords. Its very clear, she's making sure Sansa makes no move against Jon. Sansa wants to be Queen. Arya wants to make sure she doesn't act on that want. Its mutually assured destruction if she moves against Jon now but its all in her power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said: 'Fear makes people do unreasonable things' It doesn't matter why Sansa threatened her, the faces are freaky. The fact is, she did. And Arya in turn showed her that her threats were empty. She went too far but both girls are not behaving reasonably. This is what is set up in the first place. Arya is full of fury and so is being unreasonable. Sansa is full of fear and so is being unreasonable. BOTH ARE AS BAD AS EACH OTHER. Arya hasn't said anything at all to the Northern Lords. Its very clear, she's making sure Sansa makes no move against Jon. Sansa wants to be Queen. Arya wants to make sure she doesn't act on that want. Its mutually assured destruction if she moves against Jon now but its all in her power. What do you base this statement on? Sansa wants to be Queen is such a stale argument that has lost any meaning so far. Simply, the hunger people think Sansa has is nowhere to be seen. The argumentation that Arya is saving Jon from wicked Sansa is rather nonsensical as we see Sansa being loyal to Jon, time after time. Arya, in all her (lacking) wisdom, never for a split of second asks Sansa about her past and just throws accusations because she is so "perceptive". Even Jon exactly knew what Ramsay did to Sansa, which is why he allowed her to kill him. I agree they are both unreasonable, but this fight started with Arya. I like Arya and I find her the most perceptive character in the books, but here, this season, her actions are mind-bogglingly idiotic. Unless of course there is another game she plays. This is ridiculous, I argue something that I am not even sure is happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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