Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[lakin1013]

I side with the folks who think Arya was giving Sansa a sort of set of instructions. Arya said: I want to wear the pretty dresses, I want to wear the pretty hair style.  I think Arya is telling Sansa that I (Arya) can turn into you.  There would be two of us. So I, Arya, am giving you my knife so I know it is REALLY YOU. That means there can be a Sansa in front of LF and there can be a Sansa with a dagger behind LF.  That is my interpretation of the Arya/Sansa situation.  It was muddy and hard to figure out, but that is what I think happened.  I am also assuming that the plot will somehow allow Arya to make a face of someone still living.  Otherwise, not so much.

 

 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

9 minutes ago, Risto said:

What do you base this statement on? Sansa wants to be Queen is such a stale argument that has lost any meaning so far. Simply, the hunger people think Sansa has is nowhere to be seen. The argumentation that Arya is saving Jon from wicked Sansa is rather nonsensical as we see Sansa being loyal to Jon, time after time. Arya, in all her (lacking) wisdom, never for a split of second asks Sansa about her past and just throws accusations because she is so "perceptive". Even Jon exactly knew what Ramsay did to Sansa, which is why he allowed her to kill him. 

I agree they are both unreasonable, but this fight started with Arya. I like Arya and I find her the most perceptive character in the books, but here, this season, her actions are mind-bogglingly idiotic. Unless of course there is another game she plays. 

This is ridiculous, I argue something that I am not even sure is happening

Season 1- Sansa wants to be Queen, it the only thing she ever wanted

Season 4- Sansa is jealous that Margaery is now queen and Tyrion says 'Better her than you'

Season 6- Sansa gives Littlefinger that meaningful look when Jon is made King in the North over her. It wasn't being protective, as the actors said at the time, she's upset about not getting her due for the Vale troops. Jon lost the battle and he was made King. She in her mind, won it, and she got nothing.

Season 7- Arya, with all her skills, tells us. And we aren't meant to think she's lying. You can see the truth getting too close in Sansa's face. Also the leaked outline states that when Sansa is confronted by Glover saying 'Maybe we should have chose you instead' only Arya sees the want in Sansa's face

Also remember the Queen that will cast down Cersei prophecy, if you think its Sansa then be looking for her to pass over Jon at this point. 

You'd have to be arguing Sophie's not getting this in the performance but I think she is.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Season 4- Sansa is jealous that Margaery is now queen and Tyrion says 'Better her than you'

If that was jealousy, then I need to check the word in the dictionary. In the said scene, Sansa wasn't jealous because Margaery is marrying Joffrey, but stating that Cersei is down. 

Quote

Also remember the Queen that will cast down Cersei prophecy, if you think its Sansa then be looking for her to pass over Jon at this point. 

"Until comes another, younger and more beautiful to cast you down" I do believe it is Sansa, but I don't think she will be Queen at the point. I don't think Queenship is what Sansa wants at this moment. I think her issues with Jon were question of trust and partnership, issues solved when he gave her Regency. 

[Stormourne]

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

"Until comes another, younger and more beautiful to cast you down" I do believe it is Sansa, but I don't think she will be Queen at the point. I don't think Queenship is what Sansa wants at this moment. I think her issues with Jon were question of trust and partnership, issues solved when he gave her Regency. 

Why does no one ever claim that Daenerys is the "younger and more beautiful " queen to cast her down? Look, while Sansa is beautiful, Cersei was much more beautiful in her prime. And Daenerys is arguably much more beautiful than both of them, so yeah.

[Mladen]

10 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Why does no one ever claim that Daenerys is the "younger and more beautiful " queen to cast her down? Look, while Sansa is beautiful, Cersei was much more beautiful in her prime. And Daenerys is arguably much more beautiful than both of them, so yeah.

I feel that just like for AAR, Dany feels like too obvious choice. Sansa is arguably a great beauty. I am not sure that Cersei was more beautiful than Sansa, as even when Sansa was a child, Tyrion says that she is even more beautiful than Margaery. Catelyn was considered beautiful and Sansa is said to be far more beautiful than she was. 

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Arya was well within her rights to get tough with Sansa. She was snooping in Arya's room and when she was caught dared to threaten Arya by telling her about all the men at Winterfell loyal to her. Sansa needed a lesson in whom she was dealing with, and got it.

Sansa is in the position of authority in Winterfell for now, and Arya is not, so no.

Besides, Arya is guilty of snooping as well, and reading Sansa's correspondence to boot, so double no.

[teej6]

4 hours ago, Risto said:

They separated the titles so Jon is the King and Sansa is the Lady of WF Winterfell is not Jon's, it is Sansa's. Basically Jon is the King without the seat. Yes he is in charge of North with Sansa acting as Regent. In hierarchy of North, it is him then her. As for WF, that one is hers. He has nothing with it. That is why Dany's proposal is idiotic from Jon's POV. Simply, if he wants to be Warden he would have to usurp Sansa. That said, I doubt Jon cares about titles and I doubt Sansa wants any strife between her and her King.

That's not how I see it. Sansa's Lady of Winterfell title does not make her ruler of the North or warden of the North according to the show. It's a titular title. It's dumb I know and they do not explain it well. When Lyanna Mormont and the others proclaimed Jon KITN, they were giving him the title Robb and prior Stark kings held, so in effect making him ruler of the North, which included WF. The Stark kings seat was WF, I don't think they meant to show that Jon is KITN but he has to now go and find himself another seat. I agree it's poorly written and hence viewers are confused and we are having this debate. As someone above said Jon even states that he is leaving Sansa in charge just as Ned left Cat in charge. 

[Tianzi]

24 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

while Sansa is beautiful, Cersei was much more beautiful in her prime. And Daenerys is arguably much more beautiful than both of them, so yeah.

That's

a. a matter of personal tastes

b. the casting choice (which was decided while Sophie was still growing up).

The show obviously treats all three of them as super-beauties, so that's not a good argument to dismiss Sansa (although I think it's Dany too, I don't think D&D would beat aroung the bushes at this point).

[A Ghost of Someone]

I believe in the books, the more beautiful Queen to cast Cersei down is Sansa. In the show, it has to be Dany. Although when Jon's parentage becomes known, he has already surrendered the North and its figurative crown to Dany. I will be interested to see how that is taken in Winterfell, especially by Sansa, Arya and their lords. Also, Sweet Robin as in WTF is he? Hopefully, LF will be gone by then as I cannot imagine he being alive if Varys and Tyrion know about him there.

[Stormourne]

Just now, Tianzi said:

That's

a. a matter of personal tastes

b. the casting choice (which was decided while Sophie was still growing up).

The show obviously treats all three of them as super-beauties, so that's not a good argument to dismiss Sansa (although I think it's Dany too, I don't think D&D would beat aroung the bushes at this point).

I was thinking about the book version of them when I commented.

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

That's not how I see it. Sansa's Lady of Winterfell title does not make her ruler of the North or warden of the North according to the show. It's a titular title. It's dumb I know and they do not explain it well. When Lyanna Mormont and the others proclaimed Jon KITN, they were giving him the title Robb and prior Stark kings held, so in effect making him ruler of the North, which included WF. The Stark kings seat was WF, I don't think they meant to show that Jon is KITN but he has to now go and find himself another seat. I agree it's poorly written and hence viewers are confused and we are having this debate. As someone above said Jon even states that he is leaving Sansa in charge just as Ned left Cat in charge. 

I think whatever logic we use here is kinda pointless as they will do whatever they want to do, without many thought put into it. The entire situation is kinds ridiculous. So, however it may end, I do hope it will be clearer who is in charge of what then it is now  

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

The letter is a dangerous thing and we see Sansa being more worried about the consequences for Jon (you know, the one Arya is supposedly siding with) than she is about her position. So, Arya is working here against the family as she doesn't see Sansa's loyalty to Jon. For someone who is supposed to be so perceptive, she missed a lot.  

See that makes absolutely no sense in the context of what they've shown earlier. Why would the Northern Lords abandon Jon because of Sansa's betrayal. Maybe the Knights of the Vale may not want to stick around as Royce made it clear last episode they came on her account. But the rest of the Northern lords swore fealty to Jon not Sansa. Again, dumb writing on the part of D&D or they want to imply that Sansa is so full of herself that she thinks the North is loyal to her. 

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Danny- said:

I don't get why sansa keeps little finger around.she knows what he's capable of (killing joffrey,lysa,selling her to the boltons).She knows his motives,sitting on the iron throne with her beside him.

I don't think the knights of the vale are fond of LF ,if he gets booted from WF i'm sure they will stick around.

i think LF's days are numbered and the Sansa/Arya fued will go up in smoke.

Because of LF's plot armor (until of course it's time for him to go) and bad writing. They didn't have anything to show in LF so they are keeping LF around to have a storyline for WF.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

I agree they are both unreasonable, but this fight started with Arya. I like Arya and I find her the most perceptive character in the books, but here, this season, her actions are mind-bogglingly idiotic. Unless of course there is another game she plays. 

I agree Arya started the fight because they are showing (rather poorly I must say) that she sensed betrayal lurking in Sansa's mind unbeknownst to Sansa herself. Either Bran's seer abilities rubbed off on Arya (joke) or Bran told her something off screen. Knowing this tension exists LF eggs the sisters on, first with his shady meetings in the alleyway and then by pouring poison in Sansa's ear. I know I've said this before, all this intrigue and suspicions of betrayal and threats will be for naught as LF will be outed in the end and that will be the end of him. 

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The letter is an insurance policy. Sansa moves against Jon. Sansa gets exposed. If Sansa does not intend to move against Jon at any point, she should have no fear about the letter.

If Sansa wanted to move against Jon she would've already done that. Jon has been gone for months. instead of conspiring behind his back she has been busy preparing Winterfell for the war, building up grain stores and keeping northern lords calm. Royce and Glover indirectly offered her the queenship of the North but she turned them down because she is not a traitor.

Threatening Sansa with a letter she wrote as a hostage is not smart, it's mean. she was a hostage too. she served Tywin Lannister for months all the while he was at war with Rob. She could've killed him or gave his name to Jaqen but she didn't. And she used her third chance to free herself not to eliminate her brother's enemy. I expected her to be more understanding.

If she is truly worried about Jon, she should stop being childish and try to talk with her sister properly.

[Cas Stark]

Royce and Glover are pretty much showing that Arya was right, they should be beheaded as traitors since they're willing to turn their cloak every other episode.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

7 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

If Sansa wanted to move against Jon she would've already done that. Jon has been gone for months. instead of conspiring behind his back she has been busy preparing Winterfell for the war, building up grain stores and keeping northern lords calm. Royce and Glover indirectly offered her the queenship of the North but she turned them down because she is not a traitor. and now she is worried about Jon losing his army on the brink of war because her sister wants to play a nasty game with her.

Threatening Sansa with a letter she wrote as a hostage is not smart, it's mean. she was a hostage too. she served Tywin Lannister for months all the while he was at war with Rob. She could've killed him or gave his name to Jaqen but she didn't. And she used her third chance to free herself not to eliminate her brother's enemy. I expected her to be more understanding.

If she is truly worried about Jon, she should stop being childish and try to talk with her sister properly.

Agreed.

I am just lost on this story. It's like a switch flipped with Arya's character and I don't know what to think. Is this more D&D destroying female characters on the show or could they actually have some clever plot twist - I doubt it since they no longer have GRRM's guidance. I'm more inclined to think it's character destruction and I don't like the way it's going.

[winter daughter]

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Royce and Glover are pretty much showing that Arya was right, they should be beheaded as traitors since they're willing to turn their cloak every other episode.

Rob beheaded lord Karstark and lost part of his army in the middle of the war. what Arya suggested was stupid considering the situation. they are on the brink of a great war. they should do what is smart not what is right.

[Cas Stark]

15 minutes ago, Mother of Mini Dragons said:

Agreed.

I am just lost on this story. It's like a switch flipped with Arya's character and I don't know what to think. Is this more D&D destroying female characters on the show or could they actually have some clever plot twist - I doubt it since they no longer have GRRM's guidance. I'm more inclined to think it's character destruction and I don't like the way it's going.

Every time people have thought the show was doing a clever plot twist, or some type of misdirection....Talisa honeypot, Arya really being dead, etc. etc. it always turns out to be exactly what is shown on screen.  However, I guess that maybe one time, they will do something clever, and this might be it.  Although I don't really see what Arya/Sansa would be doing that 'traps' LF, he hasn't done anything different from what he's always done.

So, on balance, it seems more likely this was character destroying fake drama filler, or really poorly written scene trying to show something? about Arya in a move to diminish her popularity so it's easier on fans when she dies.  

[Lady Sansa Stark]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Every time people have thought the show was doing a clever plot twist, or some type of misdirection....Talisa honeypot, Arya really being dead, etc. etc. it always turns out to be exactly what is shown on screen.  However, I guess that maybe one time, they will do something clever, and this might be it.  Although I don't really see what Arya/Sansa would be doing that 'traps' LF, he hasn't done anything different from what he's always done.

So, on balance, it seems more likely this was character destroying fake drama filler, or really poorly written scene trying to show something? about Arya in a move to diminish her popularity so it's easier on fans when she dies.  

I mean, why not both a character destroying fake drama filler, AND a really poorly written scene trying to show... something. But that something is never clear with D&D. Both characters are getting so much hate right now from different sides of the fandom. One side blames Arya for everything, the other one blames Sansa and brings up the Season 1 "I want to be Queen" BS. 

Luckily, GRRM has written the next episode, so I expect some salvage from the horrendous plotline that is Winterfell this season.