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Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces


Mladen

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8 hours ago, teej6 said:

I agree. I too don't see Stannis, Shireen or Rickon surviving in the end. But I also don't see how D&D will be able to manage to have the same storylines for most of the characters as GRRM will have in the books cause they've made far too many changes already. For example, Stannis most likely will be the one retaking WF and he most definitely won't be burning Shereen for good weather.  Either he takes WF and then meets up with Shireen to burn her or he's dead and he won't be burning Shereen. It can't be both ways as Shereen is in Castle Black and Stannis is out there fighting the Boltons. All these little changes add up (what GRRM calls the butterfly effect) and I don't think it will be very easy for D&D to get all the characters endings to match up with GRRM's ending. But as you say, I suppose the plot could end up being loosely the same for many of the characters.  

Oh my sweet summer child.

Of course Shireen ends up on the bonfire. It was obvious to me that was going to happen when the Red Witch burned the idols before they left Dragonstone. The last time we hear of Stannis, he has built THREE bonfires and the Red Witch has sent 'a package' from the wall.

Shireen was always going to be burned on a bonfire. If you don't understand that, you haven't read the books properly.

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12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Every time people have thought the show was doing a clever plot twist, or some type of misdirection....Talisa honeypot, Arya really being dead, etc. etc. it always turns out to be exactly what is shown on screen.  However, I guess that maybe one time, they will do something clever, and this might be it.  Although I don't really see what Arya/Sansa would be doing that 'traps' LF, he hasn't done anything different from what he's always done.

So, on balance, it seems more likely this was character destroying fake drama filler, or really poorly written scene trying to show something? about Arya in a move to diminish her popularity so it's easier on fans when she dies.  

I agree it's more likely character destruction. I cringe each time an episode starts and D&D are the writers now. I hate what they are doing with this Arya vs. Sansa thing. I hate that they really do not understand either of these characters as they are written in the books, especially Sansa who they have ruined her portrayal and the understanding of this character since season 2. 

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7 hours ago, Pandean said:

since Jon bent the knee is he taking the title of Lord of Winterfell or is that still Sansa's?

This is an interesting question.  I honestly think that knowing what they are up against, and now Dany having seen it, they are both focused on that effort and don't care a whit about feudal necessities.  I think John only refused to bend the knee before because he needs to keep the houses of the North unified (he has stated this, actually)....I think having seen what she is capable of doing to help the cause, he believes the northern houses will also see it and be willing to subjugate themselves to her in the interest of defeating the NK.  

I hope he isn't miscalculating.  The funny thing is that now that she's seen the threat herself, I don't think Jon even needed to bend the knee.

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Where the hell do people even get the idea Sansa will kill Arya or Sansa will take over Winterfell?

 

i just find it so nonsensical due to how her character had behaved

 

is it because Arya says so? Isn't it even remotely possible that her accusations against Sansa are just that? No product of any mind reading or anything but accusations toward a sister that she strongly dislikes?

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

Oh my sweet summer child.

Of course Shireen ends up on the bonfire. It was obvious to me that was going to happen when the Red Witch burned the idols before they left Dragonstone. The last time we hear of Stannis, he has built THREE bonfires and the Red Witch has sent 'a package' from the wall.

Shireen was always going to be burned on a bonfire. If you don't understand that, you haven't read the books properly.

Actually, I haven't got the interview or quote to hand, but I believe George confirmed that she will die in the pyre; by whose doing, we don't know (as far as I am aware); of course Melissandre has to be involved but who gives the order, we don't now yet until we get the books lol

Going back to the main points of this thread okay:

BTW @Pandean I agree with almost all you have said so far on the matter, but my two cents:

When I first saw the scenes between the sisters, yes, I wanted to kick them hard and make them see through LF.  However, what I did see is a reversal of roles between the sisters.  In the first book (or season) Sansa and Jeyne make fun of Arya for not being "lady-like"; now Arya makes more than fun at Sansa for being "girly" with the added bonus (not just of disliking her preferred occupation but implying that she is a traitor).  The traitor bit didn't make sense to me;  Arya accepted that Sansa had played into Cercei's hands and was foolish to believe Ned would be saved by it.  That in itself indicates that Arya considers Sansa stupid but not necessarily treacherous.  Alright, the Starks have the right to seek revenge under the circumstances but nothing Sansa wrote (even if she had done it out of her own volition) indicates treason to her family just a desire that they put down their weapons... Now, had they used the time when Sansa informed Cersei of her father's intent to take them back to WF might have been a different matter but since there was no documentary evidence for that I guess they couldn't use that.  Still, she had no idea at the time (Sansa, on the latter incident) of the consequences her words would bring.  I sometimes just feel that some watchers/readers cannot get past her mistakes when she was too young to comprehend the possible consequences.

Now, in the first scene with the sisters I thought that it was Arya, not Sansa, the one who was jealous of the other's recognition.  I think the word "recognition" is appropriate when we are talking about Sansa being jealous of Jon and again here.  Sansa did indeed saved the day, despite some treachery.  I believe that if she had told Jon her plans he would have opposed them and that she knew that, hence she couldn't go that route.  Yet, when all was won, Jon got the credit and she didn't, so although happy for Jon in one level there was some level of resentment there.

Now, Arya in this episode, IMHO, seems to resent everything about Sansa's position.  Okay, we all know Arya is a doer and not an organiser, possibly ill suited for running a castle and hearing petitioner farmers and what not, but still..  All that taunting about "pretty dresses, knitting and nice things...).  It is not what Arya wants for herself, of course not, but why taunt Sansa so because their skills are different!  What came to mind is, like even our 21st century society, it is cool to be a woman very skilled in the Armed Forces but should it be less cool to be a manager in a big venue such as a castle or, say, a fashion designer???  To me, that is what "division of work" is for, so that we try to match ourselves to our talents and preferences lol.

I hate ultra feminist arguments but I am certainly egalitarian.  I believe we all should have the job we would like not dictated by gender but going the other way and putting down people for knitting or being housewives or something is just as wrong in my book.

I agree with those who think that Arya's character was a bit butchered in the last two episodes, still some think she did the right thing or even didn't go far enough lol  I have given up my hopes on all of it being a plot to get LF (would love that but not counting my chickens on that one).

Still, Arya seemed to enjoy (great performance by Maisie BTW) creating fear in Sansa, despite her saying that fear was her problem.  I do remember as a young girl a "so called friend" finding I had lied about something (in real life) and basically blackmailing me with it! lol

I personally think that Sansa is ambitious, but what of it???  Okay, she disagreed with Jon on a couple of occasions.  If she had not, some feminists people may have gone all out as to why she didn't stand up to him!  There is no pleasing the crowd! lol  Agreed, she ought to have done it behind close doors though but still, they gave her a chance to take the throne, with LF backing her no doubt there and she didn't take it.

Now, I don't think Arya meant to kill her, just to scare her, to assert power over her.  To me, Arya, after all she has gone through wants "recognition" too and all she is hearing from Sansa is how she was abused etc.  Neither of the girls realise what the other one went through... and that is sad... for now...

I always saw Arya's arc as a parallel with Tyrion's.  They both started fun and feisty, and even him with more issues than her.  After all, she had a loving family once and is not considered physically a freak.  Now, in the books I think their arcs will be kind of parallel.  The show didn't want Tyrion in that horrible suicidal mess situation so he came out of it quickly.  Arya is still in that anger period though (in the show at least).  In a way they are doing better with her because they are kind of showing how incredibly dehumanising her time with the Faceless Men was, on the other she is acting like a psychopath, for now...

I do believe that once your that down the only way is up and up she will be.  There may be many reasons why she made Sansa almost shit herself in fear but did not kill her.  She never will.  LF is playing them well and truly and I believe this a build up for his death (my prediction is next episode lol).  

Arya claims she can see through lies, can she?  How far down?  The way she has been characterised so far doesn't indicate that at all but I think we will see a smarter and calmer Arya before the end.

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16 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

This is an interesting question.  I honestly think that knowing what they are up against, and now Dany having seen it, they are both focused on that effort and don't care a whit about feudal necessities.  I think John only refused to bend the knee before because he needs to keep the houses of the North unified (he has stated this, actually)....I think having seen what she is capable of doing to help the cause, he believes the northern houses will also see it and be willing to subjugate themselves to her in the interest of defeating the NK.  

I hope he isn't miscalculating.  The funny thing is that now that she's seen the threat herself, I don't think Jon even needed to bend the knee.

That's what makes it stupid.  You're right.  Now that she saw the army of the dead and they  killed one of her dragons....she's going to go after them whether he bends the knee or not.  So, bending the knee is dumb.  If he was going to bend the knee he should have done it to get her support...but he already has that now.

I don't think that Jon has made a smart decision in several seasons.  

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

Oh my sweet summer child.

Of course Shireen ends up on the bonfire. It was obvious to me that was going to happen when the Red Witch burned the idols before they left Dragonstone. The last time we hear of Stannis, he has built THREE bonfires and the Red Witch has sent 'a package' from the wall.

Shireen was always going to be burned on a bonfire. If you don't understand that, you haven't read the books properly.

I don't dispute that Shireen will be burned. If you read my post carefully, you would have seen that. And of course D&D pretty much confirmed it with their "when George told us..." If you've read the books properly you'd see that it is logistically impossible for Stannis to die in the Battle for Winterfell and burn Shireen. And I'm willing to bet that it is the former that won't come to pass in the books. If he has to burn Shireen he will have to meet up with her and Mel to consent to it (and they are currently at Castle Black and Stannis is not), and in order to do that he should survive the battle with the Boltons. Impossible to have both happening in the books.

When Stannis burns Shireen, he'll do it because all hope for humanity seems lost and Mel will convince him this is the only way to defeat the WWs (not the Boltons). 

And in the Theon sample chapter from TWoW, it is shown that Stannis is sending Justin Massey to Braavos to hire sellswords with the money he got from the iron bank. In his conversation with Massey, Stannis states that even if he dies, Massey must make sure he gets the IT for Shireen. So Stannis is not thinking of burning Shireen in order to defeat the Boltons. If and when he burns her, he'll do it for a bigger cause than defeating the Boltons 
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10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's what makes it stupid.  You're right.  Now that she saw the army of the dead and they  killed one of her dragons....she's going to go after them whether he bends the knee or not.  So, bending the knee is dumb.  If he was going to bend the knee he should have done it to get her support...but he already has that now.

I don't think that Jon has made a smart decision in several seasons.  

Well, it's not like Book Jon is really a thinker either lol...that's why I love the character.  He's a lot like Ned and Jeor in terms of being honor-driven and to do what's right.  I think you also factor in the romance stuff and it makes sense he'd offer to bend the knee now.  

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3 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Well, it's not like Book Jon is really a thinker either lol...that's why I love the character.  He's a lot like Ned and Jeor in terms of being honor-driven and to do what's right.  I think you also factor in the romance stuff and it makes sense he'd offer to bend the knee now.  

I don't know, I think his book character is pretty smart in terms of getting the strategy/tactics correct.  Where he fails is in his ability/willingness to communicate and sell what he sees as obvious.  Other than Hardhome, all of Jon's book decisions have been solid.  Unlike the show version where he has floundered from dumb decision/incompetence to dumb decision/incompetence only to be saved by his massive plot armor.

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20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's what makes it stupid.  You're right.  Now that she saw the army of the dead and they  killed one of her dragons....she's going to go after them whether he bends the knee or not.  So, bending the knee is dumb.  If he was going to bend the knee he should have done it to get her support...but he already has that now.

I don't think that Jon has made a smart decision in several seasons.  

Jon's made to be the dumbest character on the show. They've been giving his choices/decisions to others (like Sam) since very early on in the show. 

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12 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Well, it's not like Book Jon is really a thinker either lol...that's why I love the character.  He's a lot like Ned and Jeor in terms of being honor-driven and to do what's right.  I think you also factor in the romance stuff and it makes sense he'd offer to bend the knee now.  

Actually he is a strategist. Not saying he hasn't made dumb choices but he has made very good decisions and is shown to be very resourceful and a big help to Stannis.

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25 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's what makes it stupid.  You're right.  Now that she saw the army of the dead and they  killed one of her dragons....she's going to go after them whether he bends the knee or not.  So, bending the knee is dumb.  If he was going to bend the knee he should have done it to get her support...but he already has that now.

I don't think that Jon has made a smart decision in several seasons.  

He bends the knee now because he's in lurve wih her.

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Re: My question last night

 

I do believe Winterfell is Sansa's since Jon was never in the line of succession and even if he was, he comes after the trueborn children. So, that would be odd, him going from KitN to not even a lord, properly.

 

Sansa is currently both LoW and Lady Regent of the North which are two different titles, I believe. But LoW is her's by birthright. I can't see Jon taking that from her (though I can see D&D adding it because they're dumb fucks)

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27 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Re: My question last night

 

I do believe Winterfell is Sansa's since Jon was never in the line of succession and even if he was, he comes after the trueborn children. So, that would be odd, him going from KitN to not even a lord, properly.

 

Sansa is currently both LoW and Lady Regent of the North which are two different titles, I believe. But LoW is her's by birthright. I can't see Jon taking that from her (though I can see D&D adding it because they're dumb fucks)

The whole thing is messed up coz as you say D&D fucked up. Jon was given the title of KITN, which was the same title given to Robb and kings in the north prior to Aegon's conquest. All these kings were Starks and WF was their home. There was no separate Lord or Lady of WF. When the Northern lords crowned Jon that was their intent. They didn't have a caveat in there that stated that you are only KITN and not lord of WF or warden of the North nor did they expect Jon to go and set up house elsewhere. So Sansa being Lady of WF makes no sense in this context. Unless they meant to have her run Jon's household until he takes a wife. Who knows.

Jon, if he survives the final battle, could give WF to the Stark children and establish a new House for himself. He may even be king of the seven kingdoms and so Sansa becomes defacto Lady of WF and wardeness of the North.

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31 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I don't dispute that Shireen will be burned. If you read my post carefully, you would have seen that. And of course D&D pretty much confirmed it with their "when George told us..." If you've read the books properly you'd see that it is logistically impossible for Stannis to die in the Battle for Winterfell and burn Shireen. And I'm willing to bet that it is the former that won't come to pass in the books. If he has to burn Shireen he will have to meet up with her and Mel to consent to it (and they are currently at Castle Black and Stannis is not), and in order to do that he should survive the battle with the Boltons. Impossible to have both happening in the books.

When Stannis burns Shireen, he'll do it because all hope for humanity seems lost and Mel will convince him this is the only way to defeat the WWs (not the Boltons). 

No, it is a few pages away from happening in the books. Shireen was last mentioned at the wall. BUT we know that the red priestess has sent Stannis a 'delivery' that is about to arrive. She doesn't need to burn a princess to move one, its moving an army that takes that. Getting her courier through won't take more than a couple of peasants.

Not only is the red god a bastard, he is a snobbing bastard to boot.

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13 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Re: My question last night

 

I do believe Winterfell is Sansa's since Jon was never in the line of succession and even if he was, he comes after the trueborn children. So, that would be odd, him going from KitN to not even a lord, properly.

 

Sansa is currently both LoW and Lady Regent of the North which are two different titles, I believe. But LoW is her's by birthright. I can't see Jon taking that from her (though I can see D&D adding it because they're dumb fucks)

Not really.  Bran is both the Lord of Winterfell, whether he refuses to accept the title, that's who he is, and the heir to any Stark title including King in the North. Also, as King, Jon can give Winterfell to whomever he wishes.  I think she will end up as Lady of Winterfell and repopulate the Stark line with legitimized bastards, elsewise, there will be no more Stark family after this generation, but she has no right to it beyond what her cousin and her brother gave her.  And she could easily be passed over due to her now being Lady Bolton not Lady Stark.  

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10 minutes ago, hallam said:

No, it is a few pages away from happening in the books. Shireen was last mentioned at the wall. BUT we know that the red priestess has sent Stannis a 'delivery' that is about to arrive. She doesn't need to burn a princess to move one, its moving an army that takes that. Getting her courier through won't take more than a couple of peasants.

Not only is the red god a bastard, he is a snobbing bastard to boot.

See my edited post above. Don't read hidden content if you don't want to get spoiled. And no, I don't think it's a few pages from happening in the books if Stannis has to order it. If Mel does it unilaterally, perhaps.

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4 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

a good commander knows when to delegate lol

But he hasn't been delegating anything. His choices/decisions from the books were just not his choices/decisions in the show.

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