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Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces


Mladen

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What's with people claiming Sansa is going to be Cersei 2.0? How does anyone even see that? Because Sansa said she learned things from Cersei? Of course she did. How could she not, being in close promoximity for so long? Because she was rude to Brienne? Maybe her being under so much stress is a part of it? Or she has reasons for sending Brienne away?


Seriously, how can people believe those two characters are alike? The idea that Sansa is some selfish powerhungry bitch just doesn't mesh with the entire season....where she's preparing plans to feed the entire north and defend it, making sure the armor is proper so people don't freeze to death, offering the role of LoW to Bran because it's his right, trying to keep the Northern Lords and the Vale together for Jon, being told by Jon that she is the one he trusts to rule Winterfell.....how is any of these actions selfish or power-hungry?

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Just now, Lady Sansa Stark said:

Obviously, Sansa's responsible for the whole War of the Five Kings, as well as every other bad thing and every dead person in the whole series. It's a fairly consistent point in some corners of the fandom.

But please, do explain it one more time. Perhaps this time, someone will listen.

I wish I could like posts. 

S Sansa could win the War for Dawn, save the Seven Kingdoms, and usher in a new long era of peace and tranquility and you'd still have people argue she is a power hungry selfish bitch who is only after improving her own station

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1 minute ago, Pandean said:

What's with people claiming Sansa is going to be Cersei 2.0? How does anyone even see that? Because Sansa said she learned things from Cersei? Of course she did. How could she not, being in close promoximity for so long? Because she was rude to Brienne? Maybe her being under so much stress is a part of it? Or she has reasons for sending Brienne away?


Seriously, how can people believe those two characters are alike? The idea that Sansa is some selfish powerhungry bitch just doesn't mesh with the entire season....where she's preparing plans to feed the entire north and defend it, making sure the armor is proper so people don't freeze to death, offering the role of LoW to Bran because it's his right, trying to keep the Northern Lords and the Vale together for Jon, being told by Jon that she is the one he trusts to rule Winterfell.....how is any of these actions selfish or power-hungry?

Yes, all of this, thank you. 

Sansa sent Brienne away to get her away from Littlefinger and his schemes (since he, you know, kinda suggested to use Brienne against Arya), and because Brienne could pass as a good representative of the Lady of Winterfell.  

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6 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I wish I could like posts. 

S Sansa could win the War for Dawn, save the Seven Kingdoms, and usher in a new long era of peace and tranquility and you'd still have people argue she is a power hungry selfish bitch who is only after improving her own station

Yes, my point exactly. They'd find a way to pin everything on her. I mean, I'm all for constructive criticism as long as it's fair. I'm not going to excuse every action of Sansa, because like other characters she's made mistakes, but the constant need to pin EVERYTHING on her and paint her in as bad a light as possible is just so old that I can hardly deal with it anymore.

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3 minutes ago, Lady Sansa Stark said:

Yes, all of this, thank you. 

Sansa sent Brienne away to get her away from Littlefinger and his schemes (since he, you know, kinda suggested to use Brienne against Arya), and because Brienne could pass as a good representative of the Lady of Winterfell.  

Exactly. It also goes to the whole 'keep your foes confused'

LF said that Brienne could take care of Arya if need be, Sansa seemed to agree in his presence, then sent Brienne away.

Not to mention, while I love Brienne, I have a feeling if push came to shove she would've stepped in between Arya and Sansa in a way that wasn't helpful.

But no, she's Cersei 2.0 because remember all those times Cersei was focused on feeding everyone and making sure they were clothed and armed and had a place to fall back too, remember when she was concerned with making sure a bunch of squabbling lords worked together, and how she cared for her siblings in appropriate ways, and how she made wise, rational decisions as to not alienable allies.....

 

Yes, my point exactly. They'd find a way to pin everything on her. I mean, I'm all for constructive criticism as long as it's fair. I'm not going to excuse every action of Sansa, because like other characters she's made mistakes, but the constant need to pin EVERYTHING on her and paint her in as bad a light as possible is just so old that I can hardly deal with it anymore.

 

Yeah. She's not a perfect character. She's done some stupid things, especially in the earlier seasons. But she's not the same character as she was in season 1. None of them are. She makes mistakes. She learns. etc.

But people sometimes still act as if she is?

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17 minutes ago, Lady Sansa Stark said:

Obviously, Sansa's responsible for the whole War of the Five Kings, as well as every other bad thing and every dead person in the whole series. It's a fairly consistent point in some corners of the fandom.

But please, do explain it one more time. Perhaps this time, someone will listen.

My Dear... Do you remember THIS? This one tells everything :D

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7 minutes ago, Risto said:

My Dear... Do you remember THIS? This one tells everything :D

 

3 minutes ago, Lady Sansa Stark said:

Haven't seen that particular one, but mannn that one's good. 

That thread is the absolute best, omg.

Seriously, there are so many characters in GoT worthy of all the vitrol...Cersei, Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsay, Baelish, Roose, Euron, etc.

But no. Sansa is the worst of the worst. 

And don't forget--if you defend Sansa in anything that involved Sansa vs. Arya you're now also an Arya hater, as well. This season, at least.

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10 minutes ago, Pandean said:

That thread is the absolute best, omg.

Seriously, there are so many characters in GoT worthy of all the vitrol...Cersei, Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsay, Baelish, Roose, Euron, etc.

But no. Sansa is the worst of the worst. 

And don't forget--if you defend Sansa in anything that involved Sansa vs. Arya you're now also an Arya hater, as well. This season, at least.

I think the issue is that these characters simply don't provoke much discussion. Simply, what Joffrey or Ramsay did, we all agree it is bad. Now, for Sansa, and she is not the only one, you can include Catelyn and Dany into that group, every decision is being discussed and different people have different opinions on those. She is very divisive character, she has always been, but that is also a beauty of Martin's writing. 

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Just now, Risto said:

I think the issue is that these characters simply don't provoke much discussion. Simply, what Joffrey or Ramsay did, we all agree it is bad. Now, for Sansa, and she is not the only one, you can include Catelyn and Dany into that group, every decision is being discussed and different people have different opinions on those. She is very divisive character, she has always been, but that is also a beauty of Martin's writing. 

Agreed---I mean more of the extremist "power hungry evil bitch' view of things. We have actual characters who ARE that and they're a far cry from Sansa.

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On 8/20/2017 at 9:08 PM, direwoofwoof said:

Exactly! I think Sansa sent Brianne away so she could not protect Arya, but Sansa does not really know what Arya is capable of, even though she has seen her fight and heard about the stories. Sansa may be politically cunning, but Arya is ruthless. Don't F with Arya!

Yes that is my impression too, that Sansa sent Arya away so that Sansa doesn't have to contend with the oath Brienne has to protect both daughters. Because how will it come down if she has to protect one daughter from the other? Which worries me because that makes me think Sansa underestimates how dangerous Arya is. Also Brienne doesn't like Little Finger, so sending Brienne away give LF more access to Sansa underprotected.  I also think this is a death sentence for Brienne, given they are assuming Jamie will be hospitable to her, but Cersie could care less and may just kill Brienne because she represents Sansa. I love Arya, but I do not like Arya psycho. It defeats everything she gained by surviving if she tears apart her family from within. I really did not like Arya threatening Sansa and being dark and wicked to her nor the accusations she made. I suppose it's too much to ask for one great big happy Stark reunion but it is not unreasonable to believe they would support each other after all the shit they have suffered. I don't like the direction of this story.

 

I don't understand all the criticism of the actors abilities because HBO chose excellent, highly skilled actors. The actors are giving what the directors are asking for.

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On 8/20/2017 at 10:37 PM, Pandean said:

I think LF is most likely doomed.

He has to be.  I don't think Sansa and Arya are plotting against him together, but between them his game is finally gonna be up, quite possibly with some help from Bran.

On 8/20/2017 at 10:37 PM, Pandean said:

I also think Sansa is probably the most rational one of out the three right now. Arya has just....did she think Sansa was treated as an honored guest during her time in King's Landing? It's almost like everything Sansa did or does is subject to criticism--even the snide comment about 'knitting'.

I’m right there with you Pandea!  Arya has always disdained everything Sansa liked and seemed to feel herself superior

On 8/20/2017 at 10:37 PM, Pandean said:

 

 

IDK about you but clothing is pretty important, especially with Winter coming.

Arya just came off as straight up crazy in this episode and Sansa's fear is totally palpable. I mean, her little sister is talking about wearing her face as a mask...and her last tormentor/abuser/husband flayed people for fun. 

The argument about Lyanna Mormont was dumb too....like, Lyanna is surrounded by loyal men. Sansa had literally no one in King's Landing. It reminds me of how people are so quick to judge soldiers on the opposite side of wars---without realizing that defying their conscription they are subjecting themselves and their entire families to punishment or death. 

People love to say that if they were in a situation then they'd do the 'right thing'. It's called "Not-Me Syndrome" in sociology. But in reality, almost no one would 'fight back' or 'refuse and die'. That's not how people work. 

It reminds me kind of when in season 2 when Arya was in Harrenhal:

"You're one of them now, I should've let you burn"

"And you fetch water for one of them, now. Why is this okay for you but not for me?"

Same type of attitude.

Everyone would like to believe they would do the right thing no matter what, but truth is you don’t know until you’re in a situation.  Arya definitely has a bad case of the “not me syndrome”.  You can’t even compare Sansa at that age to Arya because their life experiences up to age 13 were totally different. 

So then after Sansa tells Arya that she was told writing that letter was the only way to help their father, Arya couldn’t empathize; she just said Sansa was stupid.  But at least she seemed to believe her so that’s some progress.  (Contray to what others have said about her not recognizing the truth.) Then she goes on to imply that it’s better to do terrible things out of anger than fear.  She is so superior and self-righteous right now, or at least that is how they are portraying her.

Now that Arya appears to believe that Sansa was tricked into writing that letter, why is she continuing to antagonize her?  Someone suggested in the Sansa vs Arya thread that Arya is testing Sansa’s strength and will.  I can see that.  Sansa is visibly very scared, but holds her own.  In the end, Arya did not hurt Sansa, but handed the dagger to her, and hilt first as is the safe and respectful way to do so.  After I saw that, I interpreted that as possibly Arya demonstrating to Sansa that she doesn’t suspect her anymore.  So maybe it was a test, and Sansa passed.

On 8/20/2017 at 10:37 PM, Pandean said:

But I think Sansa has really handled the situation marvelously. Also, sending Brienne away when she let Littlefinger believe she would use her to kill Arya was genius. Always keep your foes confused.

  Yep.  Agreed.

On 8/20/2017 at 10:37 PM, Pandean said:

I hope the Stark sisters make up. But unless this is some elaborate ruse (which I doubt it is), I know I'd personally find it very very hard to ever trust Arya again if I was Sansa.

That level of hostility for just about no reason is uncalled for.

 

Also I just wanted to say I love these threads. I used to lurk on here before I joined and I always would read these ones.

These have been my favorite too.

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57 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

 

Everyone would like to believe they would do the right thing no matter what, but truth is you don’t know until you’re in a situation.  Arya definitely has a bad case of the “not me syndrome”.  You can’t even compare Sansa at that age to Arya because their life experiences up to age 13 were totally different. 

 

The thing with the phenomenon of "not me syndrome" is that it's something many many people have. It's all really easy to say "Well, if i lived in WWII Nazi Germany I would defy being conscripted and hide people!"

But the reality of the situation is that the common man being conscripted into the Army would be putting their entire family and their own lives at risk by disobeying the command. Similarly, how hiding someone was a heroic action but it also included putting entire families and friends and communities at risk and a lot of people will value the lives of themselves and a loved one over a stranger's. 

So when there are tough choices presented, it's easy for someone not in the situation to claim to take the noble route (such as Arya saying she would've let them kill her before serving) but in reality, few do.

It's not something specific to Arya's character--it can be applied to most of them. 

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On 8/21/2017 at 6:29 PM, Cas Stark said:

If she marries, then she would take her husband's name, and her children wouldn't be Starks, so the only way she repopulates House Stark is if her child/children are bastards.  Presumably the author isn't going to throw out every single bit of feudal history, after all Jon Snow was legitimized so he might be king.  So, his cousin Sansa being married but her husband agreeing that their children keep her name would be pretty unbelievable.  Either her husband will die, or there will be no husband at all.

I agree but I believe the order in their world would change, especially the IT, after all is done and dusted.  Yes, if she marries say a Lannister or Tyrell (if any left) and Arryn or whatever normally they will have the husband's family name.  However, not always... Say if, for argument sake, she stayed with Tyrion, given the background bad blood between the houses, they could give the first born the name Lannister the second one Stark, say.

But even without that being necessary, "a Stark in Winterfell" doesn't seem to imply a Stark name but the blood and she does have the blood. So does Jon, for that matter, on his mother's side; okay not first up for the Lordship on those grounds, but I think the blood is what counts because I think that say has something to do with the Night King, legends etc...  I think the blood is more important than the title for the purpose of "there has always have to be a Stark in WF."

Funnily enough I was hoping that Bran (cripple or not; being paralised doesn't make you impotent necessarily) and Meera would have offspring.  Seems like he has gone too deep into 3ER for that now though but how knows...

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51 minutes ago, Pandean said:

The thing with the phenomenon of "not me syndrome" is that it's something many many people have. It's all really easy to say "Well, if i lived in WWII Nazi Germany I would defy being conscripted and hide people!"

But the reality of the situation is that the common man being conscripted into the Army would be putting their entire family and their own lives at risk by disobeying the command. Similarly, how hiding someone was a heroic action but it also included putting entire families and friends and communities at risk and a lot of people will value the lives of themselves and a loved one over a stranger's. 

So when there are tough choices presented, it's easy for someone not in the situation to claim to take the noble route (such as Arya saying she would've let them kill her before serving) but in reality, few do.

It's not something specific to Arya's character--it can be applied to most of them. 

So true!  On the other hand, in cases like Nazi Germany, many non Jews helped Jewish neighbours by hidding them etc because they knew them and there were neighbours, same goes for the Spanish Civil War say (around the same period) with communist neighbours etc but yes if your immediate family is directly threatened it is a different kettle of fish.

Most of us would probably risk something to help an innocent victim but up to a point I guess...

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17 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

So true!  On the other hand, in cases like Nazi Germany, many non Jews helped Jewish neighbours by hidding them etc because they knew them and there were neighbours, same goes for the Spanish Civil War say (around the same period) with communist neighbours etc but yes if your immediate family is directly threatened it is a different kettle of fish.

Most of us would probably risk something to help an innocent victim but up to a point I guess...

Yes. It also is different depending on the circumstances---

Risking everything for a friend versus risking everything for a stranger.

There are good heroic people in the world. The point is that a lot of people like to make claims of heroism and wag fingers from a moral high ground at people they don't think of as being heroic but once you're in the situation, it's different.

Arya is fiercly affectionate to Ned and I would definitely think Arya would do whatever it took to have a chance to save him--whether writing the letter or pleading in court.

 

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On 8/21/2017 at 6:20 PM, teej6 said:

But he hasn't been delegating anything. His choices/decisions from the books were just not his choices/decisions in the show.

Well, some but not all but he sent (in the books) Sam to become Maester for instance; treated with Mance (or tried too) etc the guy appears pretty open minded to the fact that he is not infallible and needs other people...

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