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Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces


Mladen

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Even if she had come to him on the eve of battle and told him about the Vale army and the note to LF, and explained her reasoning.....at least then it would make some sense that he doens't hold it against her and they might even have decided to draw out Ramsay's forces in hopes of a last minute save.  But the show wanted DRAMA.

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57 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Or, since it's a piece of fiction, I can conclude that it's poorly written and nonsensical, no longer grounded in any kind of realism.

Well, these days that seems like the most logical course of action. 

 

46 minutes ago, darmody said:

Did you miss the part where Jon nearly lost the battle and thousands of his men died? Sansa isn't to blame for Jon attempting suicide by charging the Bolton forces on her own, but she is for very nearly allowing her forces (yes, they were hers, too, along with Jon) being encircled, moments away from annihilation. If she had told Jon about the Vale beforehand, the battle never would've gone like that.

Actually, you forget the fact that the plan was to wait for Ramsay and that Jon lost his temper which then made his army to try to save him, thus allowing themselves to be encircled. The entire encirclement is on Jon, not Sansa. Vale army there or not, Jon still would do the same thing. He simply screw up. Major time. 

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1 minute ago, Risto said:

Well, these days that seems like the most logical course of action. 

 

Actually, you forget the fact that the plan was to wait for Ramsay and that Jon lost his temper which then made his army to try to save him, thus allowing themselves to be encircled. The entire encirclement is on Jon, not Sansa. Vale army there or not, Jon still would do the same thing. He simply screw up. Major time. 

True.  Jon in the show is not only deeply stupid, he's suicidal since his resurection.  He charges an entire army by himself.  Then he goes to meet the mad king's daughter with just his wingman and some red shirts.  Then, comes up with this absolute crackpottery of getting a wight.  Tries to give away his weapon that he will need if he's to survive a WW encounter.  Refuses to be evacuated and has to be rescued from himself not one but twice.  He's not fit to lead anyone either.  

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I'm not seeing how Sansa's failure to tell Jon something can be seen as a "betrayal" by any stretch. They were on the same side, striving for the same goal. Sansa would have been more than happy if Jon had been able to win the battle without her help.

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On 8/20/2017 at 7:43 PM, Eaglesghs said:

How is this plot believable at all? HBO clearly isn't going to kill off Arya or Sansa. It's been so obvious that Littlefinger will die.

The plot armor on this show has quadrupled ever since the show ran out of source material in the books. No way that GRRM would have all of these characters alive and well at the point we're at in the show.

Sure he will. And lots more like Selmy probably. 

But I agree that Littlefinger will die.

Arya made Sansa play the game without answering her questions. Arya is a Jedi when detecting lies. She knows Sansa was telling the truth, and she knows Sansa wouldn't betray Jon. 

Arya also is smart enough to know LF is trying to set her up into think Sansa would betray her family - so she goes to test Sansa, and Sansa passes the test. 

LF is going down, and my money is on SOON.

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2 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, these days that seems like the most logical course of action. 

 

Actually, you forget the fact that the plan was to wait for Ramsay and that Jon lost his temper which then made his army to try to save him, thus allowing themselves to be encircled. The entire encirclement is on Jon, not Sansa. Vale army there or not, Jon still would do the same thing. He simply screw up. Major time. 

 

Wasn't Jon running for his little brother?

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11 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

 

Wasn't Jon running for his little brother?

Yes, but while doing so he also charged an an army they weren't supposed to charge at, thus making everyone else follow him, thus setting up for the encirclement and whatnot.

I don't think anyone would blame him for running toward Rickon but it still is the reason why what happened, happened.

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5 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Yes, but while doing so he also charged an an army they weren't supposed to charge at, thus making everyone else follow him, thus setting up for the encirclement and whatnot.

I don't think anyone would blame him for running toward Rickon but it still is the reason why what happened, happened.

Well, his real mistake was riding out towards Rickon - this was what Ramsay wanted and he positioned his archers to anticipate this. So once Jon was in range, right near where Rickon died, he had no choice but to ride forward, since once the shock of his little brother's death set in, he noticed the archers firing arrows. You can see in the scene that when Jon charges forward, arrows land where he was after a few seconds.

Jon lost the moment Rickon started running. And there was no plausible scenario where he would not go and try to save him. Ramsay knew how to defeat Jon in that instance, and that was through Jon's humanity. Sansa warned him, said Rickon was dead no matter what... but Jon Snow would not just take her word and do nothing. It's not in his character, it's not who he is as a person. That is the tragedy of the situation.

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1 minute ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Well, his real mistake was riding out towards Rickon - this was what Ramsay wanted and he positioned his archers to anticipate this. So once Jon was in range, right near where Rickon died, he had no choice but to ride forward, since once the shock of his little brother's death set in, he noticed the archers firing arrows. You can see in the scene that when Jon charges forward, arrows land where he was after a few seconds.

Jon lost the moment Rickon started running. And there was no plausible scenario where he would not go and try to save him. Ramsay knew how to defeat Jon in that instance, and that was through Jon's humanity.

Exactly.

I don't blame Jon at all for doing what he did.  Sansa was right when she said Rickon was already dead, figuratively at least. Rickon, as the (then) last trueborn living son of Ned Stark, was never going to make it out alive. That was a cold and pragmatic thought but it was correct. I still don't blame Jon for riding out; as traps go I would be hard pressed to believe someone who says they wouldn't ride out.

 

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

Actually, you forget the fact that the plan was to wait for Ramsay and that Jon lost his temper which then made his army to try to save him, thus allowing themselves to be encircled. The entire encirclement is on Jon, not Sansa. Vale army there or not, Jon still would do the same thing. He simply screw up. Major time. 

Like I said, Jon is to blame for his piss-poor command in the field. But if he had known of the existence of the Vale army, they would've employed a different strategy. Perhaps one he couldn't doom by charging the enemy by himself. Even if the exact same thing happened, and he tried to commit suicide after Rickon's death, more than half of their forces would've been under someone else's command. Davos couldn't have thrown everyone in to be encircled by himself. 

People talk about this battle in terms of feelings and drama instead of in traditional military terms. Which is only natural, because the battle made no sense. Not strategically, logistically, or physically. (Where the heck did that pile of corpses come from?) But the thing is, if you're saying Sansa did a good thing because Jon screwed up, you're arguing for why Sansa had to betray him. You're not arguing that she didn't betray him. 

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2 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Jon lost the moment Rickon started running.

No, Jon still could've rejoined his army. Only after Rickon died did Jon charge the Bolton forces alone, which caused Davos to abandon the plan and commit their forces. Davos could've chosen to let him die, as he deserved. 

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4 hours ago, triton333 said:

I'm not seeing how Sansa's failure to tell Jon something can be seen as a "betrayal" by any stretch. They were on the same side, striving for the same goal. Sansa would have been more than happy if Jon had been able to win the battle without her help.

If they were striving for the same goal, why didn't she tell him? Because he *might* not do what she wanted. So she kept it from him. She kept vital military intelligence from her army's commanding officer. She maintained diplomatic negotiations behind his back, specifically because she didn't trust him. 

Their army went in outnumbered, with limited options. Jon broke discipline, and thousands of men died. They were very nearly wiped out altogether. 

I don't understand how you can interpret that as anything but a betrayal. 

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17 minutes ago, darmody said:

(Where the heck did that pile of corpses come from?)

From Ramsay shooting Jon's army AND his own army while Davos said to their archers to stop shooting because they could kill their own men.

Actually, that pile of corpses was the most realistic thing on a battlefield the shown gave us. Where do you think the corpses go when soldiers die, they don't disappear like in video games! :D A soldier dies, then a other dies on top of him, a third escalate them to keep fighting, and dies, etc...

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14 minutes ago, darmody said:

specifically because she didn't trust him.

That's where she was right! :D

14 minutes ago, darmody said:

vital military intelligence

That's what Jon is most lacking! :D

 

Anyway, even if she had share the information, Jon would have not trust Littlefinger, and because people like him can't do anything without trust and a girl just couldn't advise him because it would hurt his pride (look at his face when she tells him to be smarter in S7! :rofl:), he would have refuse the help.

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Question:

 

Considering how Jon did ignore her input before the BoB, what makes you think he would have listened if she did mention the Vale might be coming? Consider

--Sansa didn't know if the Vale would come or not

--If they holed out too long Ramsay would've went inside and made them starve them out which would've been disasterous

--Sansa wrote to the Vale but it never shows if they got a response or anything like that

--Jon was ignoring Sansa's advice 

--Sansa apparently felt ignored and hopeless enough to take things into her own hands

 

What if, due to the frustration of Jon ignoring Sansa's pleas and advice when it came to the battle, Sansa made the next logical route and took it into her own hands? It would make sense and is not a betrayal and more of taking action and agency. How is she supposed to do something if Jon and the others talk over her and won't take her seriously? Fuck, Jon and Davos listened to Lyanna Mormont more than her.

 

(On another note about Lyanna: I wish she would have more development other than "tough badass 10 year old". Too much and it just seems token-ish or whatever. And her comment about knitting by the fire......I'm pretty sure the people fighting the AoD will need warm clothing as well as fighters. Just saying).

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8 minutes ago, Infeth said:

From Ramsay shooting Jon's army AND his own army while Davos said to their archers to stop shooting because they could kill their own men.

Actually, that pile of corpses was the most realistic thing on a battlefield the shown gave us. Where do you think the corpses go when soldiers die, they don't disappear like in video games! :D A soldier dies, then a other dies on top of him, a third escalate them to keep fighting, and dies, etc...

He shot his arrows where two cavalries clashed. The corpses would've been spread out, not clumped up. For what reason in your mind are these soldiers piling on top of eachother? Maybe if they were all advancing toward some goal in a narrow area. But they weren't. 

Did you see the height of that pile? Do you have any idea how many men would have to be involved in the battle to get a pile that high? Like a million? 

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7 minutes ago, Infeth said:

That's where she was right! :D

That's what Jon is most lacking! :D

See, if you have an incompetent commander and go behind his back, even if you're right to do so in the sense that you end up winning the battle (though maybe you wouldn't have had to risk losing your entire army to do so), that's betrayal. 

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10 minutes ago, Infeth said:

That's where she was right! :D

That's what Jon is most lacking! :D

 

Anyway, even if she had share the information, Jon would have not trust Littlefinger, and because people like him can't do anything without trust and a girl just couldn't advise him because it would hurt his pride (look at his face when she tells him to be smarter in S7! :rofl:), he would have refuse the help.

Every time Jon doesn't listen or dismisses to Sansa, he pays for it

"We need more men/we don't have enough"

--Severely outnumber, almost dies until KotV

"Don't fall into his trap/you can't trick him/don't do what he wants"

--Tries to trick Ramsay, falls into his trap and does what he wants, nearly dies, nearly loses battle and his men are massacred

"Reward your loyal men"

--Decides to let the baby Umber/Karstarks keep land, late on has his loyal men growing less loyal and more fickle, questioning his rule

"Don't go South/Bad things happen when Starks go South/KitN belongs in the North"

--Becomes prisone--I mean honored guest--of Dany because he won't bend the knee, almost dies in a Wight Hunt, goes to KL and it probably won't be pretty, has his subjects grumble about the KitN abandoning the North

It's basically like

Sansa: Jon, don't do the thing

Jon: I'm gonna do the thing!

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26 minutes ago, darmody said:

She maintained diplomatic negotiations behind his back, specifically because she didn't trust him. 

Their army went in outnumbered, with limited options. Jon broke discipline, and thousands of men died. They were very nearly wiped out altogether. 

I don't understand how you can interpret that as anything but a betrayal. 

Didn't trust him to do what? Jon was determined to take on Ramsay with, as Sansa had correctly observed, not enough men. She knew the battle would occur and that he would lose without help, so she got help. I can't see any aspect on which a lack of trust could have motivated her. I agree it would have been useful to Jon to know what she was up to, but she was still working in his interest. Betrayal is when you are working against someone's interest. Betrayal would have been knowing how to win the battle but doing nothing.

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I'm not good enough in english to argue about this, it requires a very specific vocabulary! x) But I'll try...

The arrows could obviously reach only one side of the melee, which killed a lot of men on the periphery, then the army itself does her job of killing. Of course there were spread corpses in the melee too, but Ramsay started a move which has been naturaly increased. We are talking about thousands of men, you should read some historical accounts about battles of the WW2, all those corpses accumulating were much more impressive than we could think.

And ofc the tactic itself wouldn't work in real life, this is TV, but the corpses presence in this battle was very realistic.

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