Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, darmody said:

Thousands of men is not enough. We're talking a pile of corpses above men's heads. I don't remember how tall exactly, but over ten feet certainly. It was ridiculous. Not even close to possible. 

Not only that, but it's in  line for no reason. Not a straight line, exactly. But a line which could conveniently serve as a barrier so Ramsey could pen them in with a horseshoe shaped shield wall. 

There's nothing like that in WWII. Nothing in the annals of military history, I'd bet. 

Battle of Cannae is what it was based off of. Hannibal used the pincer technique to trap the Roman forces between his army and their own dead.

[darmody]

36 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Actually, the tactic was used by Hannibal in the Battle of Cannae.

 

Basically, the Roman army heavily outnumbered Hannibal's and formed their infantry in a deeper formation than usual in an effort to break Hannibal's center early but instead the formation managed to make their forces take up the same amount of space as Hannibal's despite Hannibal's being outnumber by the Romans.

Hannibal gradually expanded his army's center line until it became straight with bits of the group gradually breaking off to form a cresent. The cavalry collided into each other and got into a close flank fight in which no quarter was given thus the dead piled up (among them horses) and the Roman forces were squeezed together to the point where they formed such a pit that a lot of them were trampled and suffocated.

Hannibal kept slowly closing it and thus trapped the Romans between their dead and Hannibal's own men. 

By that time it was just slaughter.

Cannae is what Jon and Davos were planning to do to Ramsey. It didn't work that way, though. It happened somewhat in reverse, but not exactly. Only the squeezing was the same. 

At Cannae there was a natural barrier nearby, a river. I have no idea why there wasn't a river in the episode, which would've been so much more believable than a corpse wall. Except they wanted Winterfell in the background, and I guess there's no river by Winterfell. 

Anyway, Ramsey gets to Hannibal Jon Snow, in a manner of speaking, after the corpse wall is already there. So the trampling and piling up from Jon's army being squeezed together didn't form the wall. The wall came, absurdly enough, from a cavalry clash and storm of arrows. Which has never happened in human history, and never would happen. 

[darmody]

2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Battle of Cannae is what it was based off of. Hannibal used the pincer technique to trap the Roman forces between his army and their own dead.

It's obvious Davos and Jon are describing Cannae beforehand, like I said. It ends up being like Cannae in the end because Jon's army is pressed together. There was no corpse wall at Cannae. That part is entirely made up. 

I've heard tell Battle of the Bastards described as being like Agincourt. At least there was actually a mound of corpses in that one, but under completely different conditions. 

 

[Pandean]

4 minutes ago, darmody said:

Cannae is what Jon and Davos were planning to do to Ramsey. It didn't work that way, though. It happened somewhat in reverse, but not exactly. Only the squeezing was the same. 

At Cannae there was a natural barrier nearby, a river. I have no idea why there wasn't a river in the episode, which would've been so much more believable than a corpse wall. Except they wanted Winterfell in the background, and I guess there's no river by Winterfell. 

Anyway, Ramsey gets to Hannibal Jon Snow, in a manner of speaking, after the corpse wall is already there. So the trampling and piling up from Jon's army being squeezed together didn't form the wall. The wall came, absurdly enough, from a cavalry clash and storm of arrows. Which has never happened in human history, and never would happen. 

The river would've been more believable. I just know they based the battle off that. 

ETA:

I believe they merged the idea of Cannae with Agincourt. 

[Stormourne]

29 minutes ago, darmody said:

You're confusing the dramatic meaning of a scene for its real world significance. That's the way the show wants it, because they apparently can't write meaningful dialogue anymore. But the way their conversation went, Jon was being dismissive of Sansa's concerns, then he finally broke down and was like, "Fine, what do you want to tell me?"

Then Sansa responds like, "Um, I dunno. Don't do what Ramsey wants." That's her expert opinion, culled from her vast knowledge of Ramsey's personality, based upon observing him from the tower she was locked in all day. What is Jon supposed to do with that advice, exactly?

Ah, but then Jon does fall for Ramsey's trap, because he knows nothing. Then he attempts suicide. Sansa seems vindicated, but if you really think about it, she didn't give Jon any actual advice. She's only vindicated dramatically, because "I told you so." Jon wanted to do something to Ramsey, and the exact same thing ends up being done to him by Ramsey. Sansa predicted it. Not in any detail, but merely in a "he's smart, you're dumb, so don't be so dumb" way. Which has exactly zero to do with actual strategy. It's high school gossip-level stuff, just like her scenes with Arya this year. 

Every human being on earth knows better than not to attack an entire army by yourself. We don't need experts on Ramsey Bolton who aren't actually experts on Ramsey Bolton to tell us not to do that ahead of time. 

Technically, once he was in the middle of the field, he could not turn back since Ramsay had already prepared the archers - had he tried to turn back, the arrows would have got him dead. That's why he baited him. Jon rushing to help Rickon was not a choice for him, but a necessity. He fucked up, sure - but not trying to save him would have haunted Jon Snow even more. Sansa wanted Jon not to do what Ramsay wanted him to do, which was to attempt a rescue.... however, there really was no choice. He saw Rickon run, panicked, and gave chase without thinking it through.

The moment he jumped onto his horse was the moment he fell into Ramsay's trap. And for Jon Snow as a character, there was no real choice in the matter.

[triton333]

4 hours ago, darmody said:

What, she didn't tell Jon because she trusted him too much?

Did I say that? No. You brought up trust and I'm saying trust wasn't involved at all. Why do you think it was? What didn't she trust him with? All I can think of is that maybe he wouldn't let her bring Littlefinger's reinforcements, so she made sure he wouldn't get in her way doing what she had to do. If so maybe she made the right call. What else?

[darmody]

2 hours ago, triton333 said:

Did I say that? No. You brought up trust and I'm saying trust wasn't involved at all. Why do you think it was? What didn't she trust him with? All I can think of is that maybe he wouldn't let her bring Littlefinger's reinforcements, so she made sure he wouldn't get in her way doing what she had to do. If so maybe she made the right call. What else?

Yes, that's exactly it. She didn't trust him with the information that there was an entire friendly army nextdoor, when they happened to be short of men and intent on fighting. Because she kept it to herself--also because of Jon's incompetence--thousands of men died and their army was very nearly wiped out. 

Maybe she made the right call, in terms of ultimate victory. Maybe if Jon knew about the Vale he would've fought with them at his side. Maybe he would've used a better strategy and they would've won an easier victory. We don't know, because Sansa didn't trust him. 

If Arya knows this, she has a reason to distrust her sister. Because someone who committed what's tantamount to treason once can do it again. But the show for no good reason pretends what she did was not only not a betrayal, but a good thing. Like Tyrion at the Blackwater, or something. It's ridiculous.

The Vale Army arrived in the nick of time. Sansa had no assurance whatsoever that she'd be on time with reinforcements. Everyone was very nearly killed. At least Jon's suicidal charge was done in the moment and under duress.

Say it was Sansa's plan to get Jon killed, her army destroyed, and to take over the North with the Vale army. Would she have done anything differently? Probably not, except she'd try her hardest to hide the fact that she had any contact whatsoever with the Vale beforehand. Because that would be incriminating. 

I wish that had been the story. Her entire arc since Battle of the Bastards, from the looks she exchanges with Littlefinger, to her public disagreements with Jon, to Arya's melodramatic overreaction, would make a lot more sense. 

What we got instead was the show writing her as using a teensy bit of Littlefingerian subterfuge, which in actual fact was a major betrayal, but which set her up as a Strong, Independent Woman. And there was no downside, because she gets all the credit for victory and no discredit for underhandedness because the writers jury-rigged the rest of the characters to be unrealistic blockheads on the issue. 

[darmody]

6 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Technically, once he was in the middle of the field, he could not turn back since Ramsay had already prepared the archers - had he tried to turn back, the arrows would have got him dead. That's why he baited him. Jon rushing to help Rickon was not a choice for him, but a necessity. He fucked up, sure - but not trying to save him would have haunted Jon Snow even more. Sansa wanted Jon not to do what Ramsay wanted him to do, which was to attempt a rescue.... however, there really was no choice. He saw Rickon run, panicked, and gave chase without thinking it through.

The moment he jumped onto his horse was the moment he fell into Ramsay's trap. And for Jon Snow as a character, there was no real choice in the matter.

If he would've been dead from the arrows, which I don't necessarily accept, Davos wouldn't have had to order a cavalry charge to save him. Because there'd be no saving him.

If they stayed put, even without their commander, there'd be the chance that Ramsey could still blunder into their double envelopement plan. At the very least, they wouldn't have ended up between a shield wall and a corpse pile. 

That's why the real moment of decision comes when Jon decides to charge Ramsey alone. Then both sides send their cavalry in, and Jon and Davos' plan is out the window. 

[triton333]

6 hours ago, darmody said:

Sansa had no assurance whatsoever that she'd be on time with reinforcements.

And she might have had no assurance whatsoever that she could trust Littlefinger (who is not exactly known for trustworthiness) and get any reinforcements at all, or wasn't confident that the Vale would agree to come, and didn't want Jon to count on them turning up. I don't know what Jon could have done differently if he knew the Vale _might_ show up, or might not,

[Darksnider05]

33 minutes ago, triton333 said:

And she might have had no assurance whatsoever that she could trust Littlefinger (who is not exactly known for trustworthiness) and get any reinforcements at all, or wasn't confident that the Vale would agree to come, and didn't want Jon to count on them turning up. I don't know what Jon could have done differently if he knew the Vale _might_ show up, or might not,

It can't work like that because it takes like a month to move an army over that kind of distance.  I don't understand how she couldn't of known about them to contact them or how the entire North didn't know.  There's just some breakdown into the chain of events.

[Pandean]

37 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

It can't work like that because it takes like a month to move an army over that kind of distance.  I don't understand how she couldn't of known about them to contact them or how the entire North didn't know.  There's just some breakdown into the chain of events.

Maybe the screwing of space-time in the plot screwed up the character's ideas of it too.

"SHould it take a day or a month for Baelish to get here....."

[Future Null Infinity]

Until now I was sure that Daenerys is the YMBQ at 100% but after thinking about why the show didn't resolve that mystery this season I remembered the armistice between Cersei and Daenerys so Cersei will stay as the queen and Daenerys is going into the war for the dawn and may never return which make the prophecy predictions return back to the start point : the YMBQ is either Daenerys or Sansa (Marg is dead)

[Pandean]

7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Until now I was sure that Daenerys is YMBQ at 100% but after thinking about why the show didn't resolve that mystery this season I remembered the armistice between Cersei and Daenerys so Cersei will stay as the queen and Daenerys is going into teh war for the dawn and may never return which make the prophecy predictions return back to the start point : the YMBQ is either Daenerys or Sansa (Marg is dead)

I feel like it would be rather too glaringly obvious if it was Dany. 

Before Myrcella died there was a theory that it may be her and it delved into Cersei's relationship with her.

[Eaglesghs]

On 8/23/2017 at 7:52 PM, ShadowKitteh said:

Sure he will. And lots more like Selmy probably. 

But I agree that Littlefinger will die.

Arya made Sansa play the game without answering her questions. Arya is a Jedi when detecting lies. She knows Sansa was telling the truth, and she knows Sansa wouldn't betray Jon. 

Arya also is smart enough to know LF is trying to set her up into think Sansa would betray her family - so she goes to test Sansa, and Sansa passes the test. 

LF is going down, and my money is on SOON.

GRRM will not keep all of these characters alive in the final two books. Not even close. The whole thing with GRRM is that no one is safe. He sets up twists very well. 

With HBO, I literally roll my eyes when they try to act like Jon Snow might die. Or Dany. The fact that they only killed off Thoros of Myr out of all those characters in the last episode is ridiculous. The fact that HBO killed random soldiers that went on the trip with them just to make it seem like they were in danger was such a waste. Each time I saw someone get killed I thought "Oh is that Tormund? Or Jorah? Or the Hound? oh...... no its just some random soldier."

I mean, lets count the relevant characters that have died in this season so far: The Sand Snakes, Randyl/Dickon Tarly, Olenna Martell, Thoros of Myr, and Benjen Stark. Of those characters, only Olenna Martell is of any real significance or surprise. Don't even get me started on HBO bringing in Benjen Stark for all of freaking 10 seconds just to have him die because suddenly two people can't ride the same horse. Ugh.

Just such poor writing by HBO in this season. Don't get me wrong, the show is still very entertaining since it already has so many great pieces going for it (i.e. any time a dragon engages in battle). However, the show has become so predictable.

[Stormourne]

7 minutes ago, Eaglesghs said:

GRRM will not keep all of these characters alive in the final two books. Not even close. The whole thing with GRRM is that no one is safe. He sets up twists very well. 

With HBO, I literally roll my eyes when they try to act like Jon Snow might die. Or Dany. The fact that they only killed off Thoros of Myr out of all those characters in the last episode is ridiculous. The fact that HBO killed random soldiers that went on the trip with them just to make it seem like they were in danger was such a waste. Each time I saw someone get killed I thought "Oh is that Tormund? Or Jorah? Or the Hound? oh...... no its just some random soldier."

I mean, lets count the relevant characters that have died in this season so far: The Sand Snakes, Randyl/Dickon Tarly, Olenna Martell, Thoros of Myr, and Benjen Stark. Of those characters, only Olenna Martell is of any real significance or surprise. Don't even get me started on HBO bringing in Benjen Stark for all of freaking 10 seconds just to have him die because suddenly two people can't ride the same horse. Ugh.

Just such poor writing by HBO in this season. Don't get me wrong, the show is still very entertaining since it already has so many great pieces going for it (i.e. any time a dragon engages in battle). However, the show has become so predictable.

Arya is safe no matter what. George's wife told him to not kill her in the books, and our boy George knows that Happy Wife = Happy Life.

[Gaz0680]

13 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Arya is safe no matter what. George's wife told him to not kill her in the books, and our boy George knows that Happy Wife = Happy Life.

Bah. Thats rubbish. If George wants to kill Arya off, he will, and Im sure his wife would understand. Shes not going to divorce him for killing off a fictional character in his own work unless shes a complete nutter, in which case hed be better off without her.

[Pandean]

16 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Arya is safe no matter what. George's wife told him to not kill her in the books, and our boy George knows that Happy Wife = Happy Life.

The reason he's been taking so long with tWoW is because he did kill off Arya and now is afraid if his wife reads it his life will become hell

[Stormourne]

11 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Bah. Thats rubbish. If George wants to kill Arya off, he will, and Im sure his wife would understand. Shes not going to divorce him for killing off a fictional character in his own work unless shes a complete nutter, in which case hed be better off without her.

There is evidence to suggest that Bran, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, and Daenerys will survive the ending. The leaked manuscript from 1993 states that clearly. However, he could have changed his mind. But, I would still like to see Arya and Jon survive. Why do they have to die?????? Whyyyyyyyyyy

Also, remember that George knew how the story would end when he started writing. So if he wrote that those five characters would survive, I would be more inclined to believe that they'll survive, unless he changed the ending. But I do remember him writing that he has always known how the story would end.

[Stormourne]

6 minutes ago, Pandean said:

The reason he's been taking so long with tWoW is because he did kill off Arya and now is afraid if his wife reads it his life will become hell

She will play the Game of Faces with him. "George... did you kill her, hun? Did you?" She crossed her arms and glared at her cowering husband...

[Raksha 2014]

Am I crazy or did Sansa say that Jon hadn't sent any news to Winterfell since he left for Dragonstone?  If that's true, the Northern & Vale lords must be getting seriously confused, concerned, and thinking they might have backed the wrong horse.  No wonder Sansa doesn't have much patience with Arya's inquisition.  

Is Jon really foolish enough not to have sent any word back to Winterfell, even to let them know that the KiTN is alive and well and getting the dragonglass he traveled south to obtain?  Did the writers drop the ball?  Or did I hear it wrong?