Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[greensleeves]

1 minute ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

blah

The main POV house, the heroes of our tale, is house Stark not house Targaryen. It was never going to be called 'A Time for Dragons'.

Your 'facts' are opinions. Including what counts as bad writing.

I, for example, think the ending you're advocating would be horrific writing.

I could point out the flaws more specifically, but I think I'll just say that if you were confident in your theory you wouldn't need to hysterically defend it with a wall of text in a SANSA thread.

[greensleeves]

1 minute ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

That outcome goes hand-in-hand with a marriage between them, though. She may die birthing a child, or even against the Night King. But she is the only plausible character for Jon Snow to love and impregnate at this point - and he needs a wife/son/daughter to continue his family line. They won't end up together on the Iron Throne as one big, happy family like how Lord of the Rings ended. There will be political chaos, a time for healing, potential rebellions here and there. But one of them will end up ruling, will attempt to enforce meaningful change - however, I doubt we will see it in their lifetimes.

Radically changing the political system and class-system would destabilize the realm and lead to anarchy.

Now you're just making up your own political manifesto of Westeros in a SANSA thread. These books, in the end, are centered around the Stark family. Not what kind of political system Westeros has in a few centuries.

Dany's 'break the wheel' speech is bullcrap (the show has basically called her out on it too). 

[Stormourne]

2 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

The main POV house, the heroes of our tale, is house Stark not house Targaryen. It was never going to be called 'A Time for Dragons'.

Your 'facts' are opinions. Including what counts as bad writing.

I, for example, think the ending you're advocating would be horrific writing.

I could point out the flaws more specifically, but I think I'll just say that if you were confident in your theory you wouldn't need to hysterically defend it with a wall of text in a SANSA thread.

And is Jon Snow a member of House Stark? Does Jon Snow not have a Direwolf? A Time for Wolves could mean that it a time for Jon Snow to become king, and with his family, retake what is theirs

You need to provide for me a logical ending to season 8 - because you're not, and how I can side with you when you're just bashing my interpretation without providing your own, that is more logical than mine?

And... I had forgotten this was a Sansa thread... Sorry, Sansa.

[Stormourne]

1 minute ago, greensleeves said:

Now you're just making up your own political manifesto of Westeros in a SANSA thread. These books, in the end, are centered around the Stark family. Not what kind of political system Westeros has in a few centuries.

Dany's 'break the wheel' speech is bullcrap (the show has basically called her out on it too). 

Nope. I provided sound argumantion for my point of view. Just because you don't like the possibility, does not make it any less of a possibility. I want you to sit down and explain to me why Jon could not end up King of Westeros? Why have him become a legitimate Targaryen then? The writers could have left him a bastard, and he would still be King in the North.
Let's say his true heritage is revealed. What then? Does he brush it off, say LOL, and do nothing?

In your 'fantasy,' Daenerys dies off, childless, and Jon returns to Winterfell. What happens to the South? Who rules - no one, so there would be more civil war, people like Euron fighting to be king. If Euron becomes king, he would invade the North. Euron wants the whole of Westeros.

You need to give me something, man. You're trying to argue against me without an argumantion of your own, other than "You're wrong and I'm right."

[greensleeves]

7 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

And is Jon Snow a member of House Stark? Does Jon Snow not have a Direwolf? A Time for Wolves could mean that it a time for Jon Snow to become king, and with his family, retake what is theirs

You need to provide for me a logical ending to season 8 - because you're not, and how I can side with you when you're just bashing my interpretation without providing your own, that is more logical than mine?

And... I had forgotten this was a Sansa thread... Sorry, Sansa.

"What is theirs?" You mean Winterfell and the North? Already done.

Apparently you are too stuck on your pet theory to listen to anyone else. You didn't back yourself up with logic... just baseless ranting... again in a SANSA thread.

3 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Nope. I provided sound argumantion for my point of view. Just because you don't like the possibility, does not make it any less of a possibility. I want you to sit down and explain to me why Jon could not end up King of Westeros? Why have him become a legitimate Targaryen then? The writers could have left him a bastard, and he would still be King in the North.
Let's say his true heritage is revealed. What then? Does he brush it off, say LOL, and do nothing?

In your 'fantasy,' Daenerys dies off, childless, and Jon returns to Winterfell. What happens to the South? Who rules - no one, so there would be more civil war, people like Euron fighting to be king. If Euron becomes king, he would invade the North. Euron wants the whole of Westeros.

You need to give me something, man. You're trying to argue against me without an argumantion of your own, other than "You're wrong and I'm right."

Your supposed argumentation doesn't exist. It's basically "I really really want it to happen". 

You come in here (again a SANSA thread) pushing your theory as if it's the only thing that could possibly happen: it's not.

Also, it's not my job to spoonfeed you literary analysis. 

 

[Stormourne]

6 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

"What is theirs?" You mean Winterfell and the North? Already done.

Apparently you are too stuck on your pet theory to listen to anyone else. You didn't back yourself up with logic... just baseless ranting... again in a SANSA thread.

I actually did back myself up with logical arguments with relevant facts (e.g. the whole fucking relationship between Jon and Daenerys / D&D stating the sexual/romantic tension developing between them). The fact that you think it will go no where is astonishing narrow-minded - you want them to fall apart, not because of facts or hints in the story, but because you want that to happen. And you still haven't given me cause to reject my own point of view. Where is your argumentation? What is your argumentation?

I will fight this to the end, believe me. I have not made baseless statements. I have interpreted the source material, given potential outcomes, and how that could benefit the characters and world in general. In order to defeat me, you need to do the same. Or else, my argumentation is inherently stronger. That is a fact.

[greensleeves]

9 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I actually did back myself up with logical arguments with relevant facts (e.g. the whole fucking relationship between Jon and Daenerys / D&D stating the sexual/romantic tension developing between them). The fact that you think it will go no where is astonishing narrow-minded - you want them to fall apart, not because of facts or hints in the story, but because you want that to happen. And you still have given me cause to reject my own point of view. Where is your argumentation? What is your argumantion?

The "the whole fucking relationship between Jon and Daenerys / D&D stating the sexual/romantic tension developing between them" says literally nothing about where this series will turn up.

I feel like you need a recap of our conversation:

You: This is the only thing that could happen

Me: No it's not.

You: Yes, because this is how I want it to turn out so it has to happen.

Me: That's dumb.

You: You aren't providing logical arguments.

Me: WTF?

Your OPINION is not more valid than anyone else's. I'm sorry you need someone to convince you of that, but I'm not your kindergarden teacher.

If you put up one more non-Sansa post here, I will report it. I'm not sure all of this shouldn't already be reported. The mods could rightfully delete our entire conversation.

Quote

Or else, my argumentation is inherently stronger. That is a fact.

You haven't provided any argumentation other than "I think this is how it should be" THAT is a fact

[Stormourne]

1 minute ago, greensleeves said:

The "the whole fucking relationship between Jon and Daenerys / D&D stating the sexual/romantic tension developing between them" says literally nothing about where this series will turn up.

I feel like you need a recap of our conversation:

You: This is the only thing that could happen

Me: No it's not.

You: Yes, because this is how I want it to turn out so it has to happen.

Me: That's dumb.

You: You aren't providing logical arguments.

Me: WTF?

Your OPINION is not more valid than anyone else's. I'm sorry you need someone to convince you of that, but I'm not your kindergarden teacher.

If you put up one more non-Sansa post here, I will report it. I'm not sure all of this shouldn't already be reported. The mods could rightfully delete our entire conversation.

 

A truce then.

[Mladen]

16 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Radically changing the political system and class-system would destabilize the realm and lead to anarchy.

And what do you think Dany has been doing in Slaver's bay? Changing the system, bit by bit?

17 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

That outcome goes hand-in-hand with a marriage between them, though. She may die birthing a child, or even against the Night King. But she is the only plausible character for Jon Snow to love and impregnate at this point - and he needs a wife/son/daughter to continue his family line. They won't end up together on the Iron Throne as one big, happy family like how Lord of the Rings ended. There will be political chaos, a time for healing, potential rebellions here and there. But one of them will end up ruling, will attempt to enforce meaningful change - however, I doubt we will see it in their lifetimes.

You missed the point of comparison with LOTR. These epic stories are about worlds changing. Martin described his story as "cross-generational saga". The end is determined to be different than the beginning. Having a system in which one ruler will rule and others will be on the mercy of his/her whims, is not a change. We see the change happening but not leading us to tyranny, but more liberated society. The true tyrant, Cersei, is the villain. Like her, the idea of people being scared of those in power is going to die.

[Stormourne]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

And what do you think Dany has been doing in Slaver's bay? Changing the system, bit by bit?

You missed the point of comparison with LOTR. These epic stories are about worlds changing. Martin described his story as "cross-generational saga". The end is determined to be different than the beginning. Having a system in which one ruler will rule and others will be on the mercy of his/her whims, is not a change. We see the change happening but not leading us to tyranny, but more liberated society. The true tyrant, Cersei, is the villain. Like her, the idea of people being scared of those in power is going to die.

You have to remember how Slaver's Bay turned out - at least in the books - the moment she left, they resumed slavery. She achieved nothing, save misery. Also, I actually forgot this was a Sansa thread. So, like, sorry, Sansa. Lol. And I get what you're trying to say, and it makes more sense for the novels at this point.

We have seven episodes to go. Trying capture drastic political change in one or two episodes will be so convoluted that we'd all be up in arms over the bad writing. :/ I'm guessing they will show the potential for a better political system in the last episode. Like, they might form a Great Council and apply changes to the system - we, the viewer, won't see what becomes of this better future, save the implication through said meeting. Would that make sense?

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

You have to remember how Slaver's Bay turned out - at least in the books - the moment she left, they resumed slavery. She achieved nothing, save misery. Also, I actually forgot this was a Sansa thread. So, like, sorry, Sansa. Lol. And I get what you're trying to say, and it makes more sense for the novels at this point.

We can discuss Sansa and her role in the new system. I can bet she is going to survive and it will be interesting to see what her role will be. That is also one of the reason why I think the new world will be so different. Because just like Sansa, the world is changing. The male line of House Stark is over, Sansa stands as Lady of Winterfell, how it will turn out to be, is going to be very interesting. Especially when you have the idea of food and feeding the people, which is a notion very important for Sansa's arc. In contrast to Cersei, Sansa is the ruler you want when the storms arrive. Not because she is going to fight for you like Jon, but because she is going to take care of you. And that is what the old system lacked. What Varys spoke about... About people who suffer when lords play their games. 

8 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

We have seven episodes to go. Trying capture drastic political change in one or two episodes will be so convoluted that we'd all be up in arms over the bad writing. :/ I'm guessing they will show the potential for a better political system in the last episode. Like, they might form a Great Council and apply changes to the system - we, the viewer, won't see what becomes of this better future, save the implication through said meeting. Would that make sense?

But, you see, the foundations have already been made. Dany spoke about breaking the wheel, Jon has been named King regardless of his bastard status, Great Houses are falling like flies - Baratheons, Tyrells, Martells. Arryns, Greyjoys and Tullys are almost done. Male line of House Stark is dead, House Lannister also doesn't have future. Then we have Targaryens. Dany, arguably, can't have kids and Jon's status is questionable. All of those things are foundations for something new. So, even though I believe writers of TV show will make some hasty decisions, some systemic changes will happen. 

[Stormourne]

17 minutes ago, Risto said:

We can discuss Sansa and her role in the new system. I can bet she is going to survive and it will be interesting to see what her role will be. That is also one of the reason why I think the new world will be so different. Because just like Sansa, the world is changing. The male line of House Stark is over, Sansa stands as Lady of Winterfell, how it will turn out to be, is going to be very interesting. Especially when you have the idea of food and feeding the people, which is a notion very important for Sansa's arc. In contrast to Cersei, Sansa is the ruler you want when the storms arrive. Not because she is going to fight for you like Jon, but because she is going to take care of you. And that is what the old system lacked. What Varys spoke about... About people who suffer when lords play their games. 

But, you see, the foundations have already been made. Dany spoke about breaking the wheel, Jon has been named King regardless of his bastard status, Great Houses are falling like flies - Baratheons, Tyrells, Martells. Arryns, Greyjoys and Tullys are almost done. Male line of House Stark is dead, House Lannister also doesn't have future. Then we have Targaryens. Dany, arguably, can't have kids and Jon's status is questionable. All of those things are foundations for something new. So, even though I believe writers of TV show will make some hasty decisions, some systemic changes will happen. 

I think Sansa will play an important role for her house. Once she deals with Littlefinger, I think she can become her own person. Her influences will benefit her family. I just hope she'll be content with being Lady of Winterfell. 

I don't think we'll see drastic political change in the short term - the failure at Slavers Bay is evidence enough that strong arming change will backfire. And for Daenerys' vision to endure - this just came to me - she needs to have children, so she can teach them the proper way to govern and rule and keep her new world alive.

[Mladen]

9 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I think Sansa will play an important role for her house. Once she deals with Littlefinger, I think she can become her own person. Her influences will benefit her family. I just hope she'll be content with being Lady of Winterfell. 

I think she would be happy with even less than being Lady of Winterfell. We have seen how quickly she was ready to renounce her title in Bran's favor. I think that what she ultimately wants is to be independent, respected. Something she struggled with during this season, but what will eventually be sorted out by this year's finale. 

 

[Pandean]

10 hours ago, Risto said:

 

And to think that in the beginning people thought (well, even now they think it) that she is the stupidest. 

I suppose the two will meet at some point and that will be the real Ice and Fire meeting. I can only imagine Varys and Tyrion telling Dany to expect "sweet girl" and then she meets the force of nature she has become. That clash would be amazing to see. 

Yeah. I feel like certain people can't admit that her character is different because they're too proud to say they were wrong. Or some people are just so blinded by their love of Arya (I find a lot of Sansa haters are Arya lovers) that they don't realize that they can like both and/or that saying Arya did something wrong is not suddenly claiming she's the worst character ever. 

I still honestly don't get the people who refer to Sansa as a 'useless cunt' and whatnot.

 

Sansa and Dany meeting will be great. Especially because, as you said, she's probably expending a sweet, soft-spoken girl versus the force of nature she has become. It would be interesting for all the people in KL that she interacted with to see her now.

[Darksnider05]

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

Yeah. I feel like certain people can't admit that her character is different because they're too proud to say they were wrong. Or some people are just so blinded by their love of Arya (I find a lot of Sansa haters are Arya lovers) that they don't realize that they can like both and/or that saying Arya did something wrong is not suddenly claiming she's the worst character ever. 

I still honestly don't get the people who refer to Sansa as a 'useless cunt' and whatnot.

 

Sansa and Dany meeting will be great. Especially because, as you said, she's probably expending a sweet, soft-spoken girl versus the force of nature she has become. It would be interesting for all the people in KL that she interacted with to see her now.

Why are you still talking about Arya at this point no one is fighting you on anything.  Your just hammering away at Arya with no push back at this point your basically in an echo chamber. 

[Pandean]

23 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Why are you still talking about Arya at this point no one is fighting you on anything.  Your just hammering away at Arya with no push back at this point your basically in an echo chamber. 

.....I'm not fighting about anything? Or hammering away at Arya?

 

We were talking about how some people view Sansa and I was saying, from what I observed, some people who hate her tend to be very big Arya fans. There is nothing wrong with that. I was making an observation.

 

 

[Gaz0680]

1 minute ago, Pandean said:

.....I'm not fighting about anything? Or hammering away at Arya?

 

We were talking about how some people view Sansa and I was saying, from what I observed, some people who hate her tend to be very big Arya fans. There is nothing wrong with that. I was making an observation.

I have similarly observed that Aryas biggest haters tend to be Sansa fans, so that is not something that applies one way.

[Stormourne]

1 minute ago, Pandean said:

.....I'm not fighting about anything? Or hammering away at Arya?

 

We were talking about how some people view Sansa and I was saying, from what I observed, some people who hate her tend to be very big Arya fans. There is nothing wrong with that. I was making an observation.

 

 

Arya could stand in the middle of Winterfell and shoot someone with an arrow, and I'd still vote for her.

(Trump reference)

Anyway. I'm just sad that Arya and Sansa are fighting. I hope they resolve that conflict in a way that is plausible and satisfactory. Perhaps Arya's trauma is now showing? She is too blinded by what she believes she knows than the fact that Sansa is her sister and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

One more day to go! 

[Pandean]

Just now, Gaz0680 said:

I have similarly observed that Aryas biggest haters tend to be Sansa fans, so that is not something that applies one way.

No, of course not. You are perfectly correct. It's definitely not one way. 

To be honest, I find it kind of interesting that the opinions from Arya/Sansa fans can sometimes seem like....two bickering sisters. 

 

 

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Arya could stand in the middle of Winterfell and shoot someone with an arrow, and I'd still vote for her.

(Trump reference)

Anyway. I'm just sad that Arya and Sansa are fighting. I hope they resolve that conflict in a way that is plausible and satisfactory. Perhaps Arya's trauma is now showing? She is too blinded by what she believes she knows than the fact that Sansa is her sister and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

One more day to go! 

Ahahaha. I get it. 

 

I hope so too. I think Arya has definitely gone through a lot of change and trauma and her sticking to the things she thinks she knows is something like a security thing. If she acts like her family hasn't changed, then it would be mentally soothing (if not healthy in the long run). So I can see, due to the idea of "Everything else changed for me but this is the one thing that can't!" why her issues and stance on Sansa seem very.....obstinate. It's not right by any means and I don't excuse it, but at the same time, Arya needs help and/or the Westerosi version of a therapist. She's been through a lot.

 

I don't know if the sisters will every be buddy-buddy but I hope that they do have a working positive relationship.