Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[greensleeves]

11 minutes ago, teej6 said:

That's Arya arc in the books till she decides to go to Bravos. From ACOK onwards Sansa wants to leave KL and get away from Cersei and Joffrey not head back to WF cause she thinks WF is first destroyed by Theon and then knows its with the Boltons. So no, she's not trying to get back to WF. She builds WF in the snow, yes  but that's her longing for home not trying to get back there. 

Winterfell imagery and a longing for Winterfell is a recurring theme in Sansa's chapters:

From Game of Thrones:

Quote

The hot water made her think of Winterfell, and she took strength from that.

or when she looks beyond her father's head:

Quote

She turned that way, and saw only the city, streets and alleys and hills and bottoms and more streets and more alleys and the stone of distant walls. Yet she knew that beyond them was open country, farms and fields and forests, and beyond that, north and north and north again, stood Winterfell.

or in ASOS:

Quote

Tommen was all of eight. He reminded her of her own little brother, Bran. They were of an age. Bran was back at Winterfell, a cripple, yet safe. Sansa would have given anything to be with him.

 

or when she's lured by Dontos's constant promises of *home*.

or when she comes across a blank field of snow and literally builds Winterfell from scratch and tears the head off its attacker.  It's one of the most beautiful sections of prose in the books.

Winterfell/home is a recurring theme in Sansa's chapters. That's just facts.

[Pandean]

Maybe I am remembering it wrong but didn't the Small Council also threaten Sansa when the letter thing happened.

 

"She's a pretty thing now but in a few years who knows what treason she'll hatch"

and the like

It does seem like a veiled threat that she does what they say or else she goes the route of her father

Her status won't save her; not when Joffrey is king.

[teej6]

2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Whatever you say dude

I'm not a dude . But if you quote the books incorrectly, you should expect such a response. 

[Hoo]

Why would LF obtain the scroll to undermine Sansa?  I don't think LF is Sansa's enemy.

He obviously got the scroll for other reasons.  To blackmail Sansa? To destroy it so others dont find it?

But Arya snooped around and found it. And got mad.

From that scene I got that Arya was over it, got mad, said her piece, and was over it.

[Pandean]

Just now, teej6 said:

I'm not a dude . But if you quote the books incorrectly, you should expect such a response. 

Dude is considered a gender neutral way of referring to people

 

And also, look above you to @greensleeves's post. They said all I would've.

I just know nothing I say will convince you so why should I waste my time?

[teej6]

7 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Winterfell imagery and a longing for Winterfell is a recurring theme in Sansa's chapters:

From Game of Thrones:

or when she looks beyond her father's head:

or in ASOS:

 

or when she's lured by Dontos's constant promises of *home*.

or when she comes across a blank field of snow and literally builds Winterfell from scratch and tears the head off its attacker.  It's one of the most beautiful sections of prose in the books.

Winterfell/home is a recurring theme in Sansa's chapters. That's just facts.

I didn't say it wasn't. If you read my post, you'd see that I did say she longs for home but she knows she can't go home. So the poster's statement of Sansa's arc in the books being her going from and to Winterfell is incorrect. 

[Pandean]

Just now, Hoo said:

Why would LF obtain the scroll to undermine Sansa?  I don't think LF is Sansa's enemy.

He obviously got the scroll for other reasons.  To blackmail Sansa? To destroy it so others dont find it?

But Arya snooped around and found it. And got mad.

From that scene I got that Arya was over it, got mad, said her piece, and was over it.

He probably sees Arya as a threat, thus he moves to make Arya a threat to Sansa with the hopes Sansa will eliminate her.

 

[teej6]

1 minute ago, Pandean said:

Dude is considered a gender neutral way of referring to people

 

And also, look above you to @greensleeves's post. They said all I would've.

I just know nothing I say will convince you so why should I waste my time?

Look at my response to @greensleeves

[greensleeves]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

I'm not a dude . But if you quote the books incorrectly, you should expect such a response. 

A few more quotes from the books...

How Littlefinger gets Sansa to start meeting with Dontos:

Quote

Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home.

When Dontos gives her the hair-net:

Quote

 

“It’s very lovely,” Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

“Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It’s magic, you see. It’s justice you hold. It’s vengeance for your father.” Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. “It’s home.”

 

From ACOK:

Quote

 

He smiled. “They tell me you visit the godswood every day. What do you pray for, Sansa?”

I pray for Robb’s victory and Joffrey’s death . . . and for home. For Winterfell.

“I pray for an end to the fighting.”

 

 

[greensleeves]

7 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I didn't say it wasn't. If you read my post, you'd see that I did say she longs for home but she knows she can't go home. So the poster's statement of Sansa's arc in the books being her going from and to Winterfell is incorrect. 

Oh so you just misread our initial discussion.

GRRM chooses themes and words with care. The recurring element of home/Winterfell in Sansa's chapters are not an accident and have meaning. They point towards her future and are part of her arc.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

Wow!  I'll have to rewatch the scene with this in mind. I'm sure most viewers (myself included) didn't get this from the scene. But now that you've said it, it makes perfect sense. But why bring the whole stupid letter into this mix. Arya could question Sansa's loyalty to Jon even without the letter. LF setting up Arya to find the letter made her look stupid. And yes, the whole pollen is faux drama and shit-filler as you say. 

The first time I saw it, nothing made sense. LF advizing to use Brienne, but then Sansa sends her away, and becomes utterly rude and cold to stop all discussion about it. Then Arya sounds like she went nuts and wants Sansa's face, but hands her the dagger. So, I rewatched and watched it again.

But it starts with Arya applauding no one in the gallery before bringing up the letter, as if she's applauding a theater play. So, that's the cue of the commencement of Arya playing a role. She especially dogs Sansa about her fears and then says, "I'd go with anger".

Arya hides the bag of faces under the bed, the same location where she herself found the letter. That seems to be on purpose. Those faces were a clue to the viewers imo: we know she has faces. Walder's face is too conspicuous, but she could have used the servant girl's face (I guess that was a face she earned in Braavos after killing the waif) to follow LF around if she wanted to. But she didn't, because she wanted LF to believe she wasn't much of a spy. She also entered her room without making a sound, so her picking and closing the lock of LF's room previous episode was noisy on purpose.

Arya already questioned Sansa's loyalty to Jon. LF used the letter to make her doubt Sansa's loyalty even more: by making it appear as if Sansa had asked him to check for the letter in Luwin's archive and then suppress it. And he's using the past to remind Arya of Sansa's non-loyalty. And she's pretending to fall for it.

But the empathic Arya peeps up for a moment when Sansa emotionally responds she survived a hell. She sounds almost apologetic. Which makes sense, because Sansa is truly upset and thus emotionally honest. 

Pretty sure that Sansa was utterly stunned when Arya handed her the dagger as harmless as possible (she turns it around and offer her the heft), after that oh-so-convincing lie of wanting her face and dresses. I also liked how Sansa was just plainly concerned over WTF has Arya gotten into when she saw the faces.

[teej6]

2 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

A few more quotes from the books...

How Littlefinger gets Sansa to start meeting with Dontos:

When Dontos gives her the hair-net:

From ACOK:

 

Which part of of my statement that I know Sansa longs for home did you not get? She wants to go home but her arc is not "from and to Winterfell" coz she never does go to WF. Dontos may have suggested he'll get her home but she doesn't try and get LF to take her to WF or anything of the sort coz Sansa is aware that WF is not with Starks anymore and ergo not home. 

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Maybe I am remembering it wrong but didn't the Small Council also threaten Sansa when the letter thing happened.

 

"She's a pretty thing now but in a few years who knows what treason she'll hatch"

and the like

It does seem like a veiled threat that she does what they say or else she goes the route of her father

Her status won't save her; not when Joffrey is king.

They were weighing whether she could still be Joffrey's betrothed if she was the daughter of a traitor. There was no threat to her life, but to her chance of being married to Joffrey.

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Oh so you just misread our initial discussion.

GRRM chooses themes and words with care. The recurring element of home/Winterfell in Sansa's chapters are not an accident and have meaning. They point towards her future and are part of her arc.

GRRM's writing definitely points towards the importance of home, Winterfell, and the culture/life she originally shunned.

 

And I definitely can see Sansa, both show and book, becoming the Stark in Winterfell. I think that's what it's being set up for.

Jon is not a Stark (literally). Arya, I can't even fathom every being Lady of Winterfell. Bran is the 3ER. Everyone else is dead.

I think it's a nice way to show her arc and in the show you can see her returning to her Northern roots one season at a time.

TBH, I think she's the most Stark-like of her siblings. 

[Hoo]

16 minutes ago, Pandean said:

He probably sees Arya as a threat, thus he moves to make Arya a threat to Sansa with the hopes Sansa will eliminate her.

 

I don't know why LF would intentionally crest a rift between the two.  

Arya does not trust LF and he knows it, but Arya is not a threat to his goals. 

 Maybe Sansa does not trust LF completely either but that is more because their paths are divergent.  LF wants the iron throne.  I don't think Sansa shares that goal.

But, Sansa trust LF as her hand and needs him for protection, and trusts him for protection.  Hence she sent Brienne away.  She does not need her.  Maybe to save her from potrntial danger that is brewing.

I don't see a true conflict other than Arya's hurt feelings.  To me it's fodder.  It would be weird if LF died over this scroll.

[Green Knight]

1 minute ago, greensleeves said:

Oh so you just misread our initial discussion.

GRRM chooses themes and words with care. The recurring element of home/Winterfell in Sansa's chapters are not an accident and have meaning. They point towards her future and are part of her arc.

Sansa's longing for home is a constant, obvious theme in the book. You are absolutely correct. Those were all excellent references. Thanks for the reminder I had forgotten some of them. 

Some people just have a need to try to impress others with their smug superiority though and no matter what you say they will never admit they were wrong. 

[Pandean]

Just now, Hoo said:

I don't know why LF would intentionally crest a rift between the two.  

Arya does not trust LF and he knows it, but Arya is not a threat to his goals. 

 Maybe Sansa does not trust LF completely either but that is more because their paths are divergent.  LF wants the iron throne.  I don't think Sansa shares that goal.

But, Sansa trust LF as her hand and needs him for protection, and trusts him for protection.  Hence she sent Brienne away.  She does not need her.  

I don't see a true conflict other than Arya's hurt feelings.  To me it's fodder.  It would be weird if LF died over this scroll.

I mean, he originally got 'that look' when he saw Arya, Bran, and Sansa together. Then again when Arya fought Brienne. The united Stark Siblings as a whole are a threat to him. He can't get to Bran. Arya, however, if he turns her against Sansa, that makes the Starks have a rift between them. Thus, the hope is Sansa runs to him, especially if she feels threatened enough by Arya. 

Basically, Littlefinger seems to be throwing the dice and hoping they don't land on snake eyes.

[Pandean]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

They were weighing whether she could still be Joffrey's betrothed if she was the daughter of a traitor. There was no threat to her life, but to her chance of being married to Joffrey.

I believe that there were hidden threats to her life, though.

I mean, if the child is considered a traitor like the father.....Sansa is not necessarily in a safe position. She wasn't in a safe position despite being betrothed by Joff. Despite Jaime being captured, I really think Joffrey would've killed her had he the whim.

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Sansa's longing for home is a constant, obvious theme in the book. You are absolutely correct. Those were all excellent references. Thanks for the reminder I had forgotten some of them. 

Some people just have a need to try to impress others with their smug superiority though and no matter what you say they will never admit they were wrong. 

Yes. And her arc is not finished yet. It doesn't seem that far of a stretch to guess that sooner or later her arc will lead her back to Winterfell.

Hence 'from and to'. I believe she will become the Stark in Winterfell. Especially as she begins to accept her roots. "I am a Stark, yes I can be brave." 

[LucyMormont]

46 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

What's interesting is what is not said by LF and Sansa, Brienne will protect you from Arya.  Sansa sends Brienne away paving the way for her to move against her sister.

Yes, I took it that way too. What they did not say is more important than what was said.

S: Where did she get it? 

LF: I don't know. She seems very resourceful.(I planted it for her to find it. I need to fuel her against you, so you feel threatened and decide to get rid of her. You have to get rid of your siblings if you're going to be of any use to me). You're worried. (this is going well-wicked grin-)

S: We're asking 20,000 men to fight with us in the worst winter any of them have ever seen. The weather will be the least of their problem. Many of them will be happy to find a good reason to go home. (and they'll leave me alone with my creepy brother, my creepier sister and you!)

LF: You question their loyalty? (You better do)

S: Their loyalty is to Jon. Jon is not here. I haven't heard from him in weeks.

LF: You're the Lady of Winterfell. The king chose you to rule in his absence. And rule you have... Wisely...Ably...They say that, they respect you. Some may even prefer you (I made sure of that. I did a pretty good job messing  with their minds. That fucking ·$%%·$ bastard does not know who he's crossed, he dared to threaten me and grab me by the throat)

S: Yes, they turned their backs on Jon when it was time to retake Winterfell, then they named him their king and now they're ready to turn their backs on him again. How far would you trust men like that? They're all bloody wind vanes. 

And here comes what Sansa fears:

S: If they found out I wrote that letter...a woman who's already married not one, but two enemies of her house... By the time Jon comes back, he'll have no army left. (And neither will I, in addition that the northen lords would never support me as the head of House Stark)

LF: Arya's not like them. She is your sister. You may have disagreements, but she would never betray her family. (Would she? Obviously, you can't let that letter be known by the northen lords, you'll have to silence your sister)

S: She would if she thought I was going to betray Jon.

LF: Is that what she thinks? (For sure, that is what I want her to think. And I want you to think that she is dangerous and that you need to make the first move)

S: I don't know what she thinks. I don't know her anymore.

LF: Perhaps Lady Brienne could help. She's sworn to protect both of Catelyn Stark's girls. Did she not? (So I warn you, remember that Brienne wouldn't help you against your sister...)

S: She is.

LF: And if one of you were planning to harm the other in any way, wouldn't she be honor bound to intercede? (...so you'll need to get Brienne out of your way before making a move against Arya)

S: She would.