Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

Yes, I took it that way too. What they did not say is more important than what was said.

S: Where did she get it? 

LF: I don't know. She seems very resourceful.(I planted it for her to find it. I need to fuel her against you, so you feel threatened and decide to get rid of her. You have to get rid of your siblings if you're going to be of any use to me). You're worried. (this is going well-wicked grin-)

S: We're asking 20,000 men to fight with us in the worst winter any of them have ever seen. The weather will be the least of their problem. Many of them will be happy to find a good reason to go home. (and they'll leave me alone with my creepy brother, my creepier sister and you!)

LF: You question their loyalty? (You better do)

S: Their loyalty is to Jon. Jon is not here. I haven't heard from him in weeks.

LF: You're the Lady of Winterfell. The king chose you to rule in his absence. And rule you have... Wisely...Ably...They say that, they respect you. Some may even prefer you (I made sure of that. I did a pretty good job messing  with their minds. That fucking ·$%%·$ bastard does not know who he's crossed, he dared to threaten me and grab me by the throat)

S: Yes, they turned their backs on Jon when it was time to retake Winterfell, then they named him their king and now they're ready to turn their backs on him again. How far would you trust men like that? They're all bloody wind vanes. 

And here comes what Sansa fears:

S: If they found out I wrote that letter...a woman who's already married not one, but two enemies of her house... By the time Jon comes back, he'll have no army left. (And neither will I, in addition that the northen lords would never support me as the head of House Stark)

LF: Arya's not like them. She is your sister. You may have disagreements, but she would never betray her family. (Would she? Obviously, you can't let that letter be known by the northen lords, you'll have to silence your sister)

S: She would if she thought I was going to betray Jon.

LF: Is that what she thinks? (For sure, that is what I want her to think. And I want you to think that she is dangerous and that you need to make the first move)

S: I don't know what she thinks. I don't know her anymore.

LF: Perhaps Lady Brienne could help. She's sworn to protect both of Catelyn Stark's girls. Did she not? (So I warn you, remember that Brienne wouldn't help you against your sister...)

S: She is.

LF: And if one of you were planning to harm the other in any way, wouldn't she be honor bound to intercede? (...so you'll need to get Brienne out of your way before making a move against Arya)

S: She would.

 

I took it as LF suggesting if Arya threatened Sansa, then Sansa could use Brienne against Arya.

Thus she sent Brienne away.

I could be wrong. It's just what I got from it and what I thought they were implying.

[AryaWaifMe]

I have a feeling that Arya is seeing through LittleFinger and basically going to let him walk into his own guilt

[teej6]

3 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Oh so you just misread our initial discussion.

GRRM chooses themes and words with care. The recurring element of home/Winterfell in Sansa's chapters are not an accident and have meaning. They point towards her future and are part of her arc.

I didn't misread you post. I was responding to the poster who said Sansa's book arc is  "from and to Winterfell".  Sansa longs for home but knows that the Starks don't hold WF anymore and hence she is not trying to get back to WF.  Her desire to go home before Robb and Cat dies is not as explicit or active as it is with Arya who is trying everything in her power to get back to the North. Sansa was happy to marry Willas and head off to Highgarden rather than WF if that meant getting her out of KL. Again, I'm not saying Sansa does not long for home and WF, she does, but her her arc is not about trying to get back to WF. That is Arya's arc in the books and the show. As to Sansa's future, I'm not as certain as you are that WF is her future. As of now, she seems content to become Lady of the Vale and perhaps that's where she'll stay. Or maybe not, and she'll be regent to Rickon until he comes of age. 

[Green Knight]

Just now, Pandean said:

Yes. And her arc is not finished yet. It doesn't seem that far of a stretch to guess that sooner or later her arc will lead her back to Winterfell.

Hence 'from and to'. I believe she will become the Stark in Winterfell. Especially as she begins to accept her roots. "I am a Stark, yes I can be brave." 

Couldn't agree more. It's pretty obvious that's where it's headed, unless he pulls a complete 180 ala the Red Wedding which I can't see him doing with Sansa. 

I think the thing that people forget in these forums is that the only ones that actually know what GRRM has in store for these characters are the producers they constantly criticize for what happens on the show. Until GRRM puts out the next book this is all we have. 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I believe that there were hidden threats to her life, though.

I mean, if the child is considered a traitor like the father.....Sansa is not necessarily in a safe position. She wasn't in a safe position despite being betrothed by Joff. Despite Jaime being captured, I really think Joffrey would've killed her had he the whim.

The main point is that we have it from Sansa's POV, and in that chapter Sansa's not afraid for her own life, only afraid she won't be allowed to marry Joffrey.  And book-Sansa does admit to herself she was a stupid girl back then, nor does she try to excuse it. Heck, she feels like shit over accusing Marillion of killing Lysa, even though the guy tried to rape her. Book-Sansa from aFfC on would never use excuses to her sister over this. But show-Sansa does.

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Couldn't agree more. It's pretty obvious that's where it's headed, unless he pulls a complete 180 ala the Red Wedding which I can't see him doing with Sansa. 

I think the thing that people forget in these forums is that the only ones that actually know what GRRM has in store for these characters are the producers they constantly criticize for what happens on the show. Until GRRM puts out the next book this is all we have. 

Some people, right? lol

But yeah, I think it's obvious where she's headed. I don't see Sansa dying any time soon. 

 

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

The main point is that we have it from Sansa's POV, and in that chapter Sansa's not afraid for her own life, only afraid she won't be allowed to marry Joffrey.  And book-Sansa does admit to herself she was a stupid girl back then, nor does she try to excuse it. Heck, she feels like shit over accusing Marillion of killing Lysa, even though the guy tried to rape her. Book-Sansa from aFfC on would never use excuses to her sister over this. But show-Sansa does.

I mean, if I had a sister who basically accused me of all this shit that wasn't true, I would be defending myself too. It's not like Arya was in the mindset to accept anything without taking it as a confession.

And she did say that she was a stupid girl back then. Multiple times.

Either way, Sansa was told it was how she could save her father. It's not her fault that she couldn't play the Game at 13. Fuck, no one else in her family can play it.

 

[Hoo]

Sansa told Arya, you are angry.  I think that's all there is to it.  Arya is just angry and Sansa is worried she might do something stupid.

The knife scene tells us that Arya can control herself.

LF knows that Jon and Arya don't like him but that is not a major issue.  He is not going to attack them for that.

LF's goal is to have Sansa rule the North.  I think that is almost accomplished.  The northerners are okay with Sansa.  LF is worried that Arya will support Jon over Sansa.  That is why this scroll reveal does not make sense.  It pins Jon and Arya against Sansa, and potentially the northerners against Sansa.

So the reveal is not LF's doing.  It's Arya snooping around and getting angry.

LF's ultimate goal is the iron throne, and that should be his undoing.  He will be going against some powerful characters for that.

[Pandean]

When it comes to Jon, I think he would be a lot more understanding about the letter. Especially considering he knows more of what happened to Sansa than Arya does.

 

Also, can we please just have Arya and Sansa sit down and tell each other what went on for them? I think it would be helpful.

Pull a Cat and lock them in a room together until they act like family again

 

 

[teej6]

20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The first time I saw it, nothing made sense. LF advizing to use Brienne, but then Sansa sends her away, and becomes utterly rude and cold to stop all discussion about it. Then Arya sounds like she went nuts and wants Sansa's face, but hands her the dagger. So, I rewatched and watched it again.

But it starts with Arya applauding no one in the gallery before bringing up the letter, as if she's applauding a theater play. So, that's the cue of the commencement of Arya playing a role. She especially dogs Sansa about her fears and then says, "I'd go with anger".

Arya hides the bag of faces under the bed, the same location where she herself found the letter. That seems to be on purpose. Those faces were a clue to the viewers imo: we know she has faces. Walder's face is too conspicuous, but she could have used the servant girl's face (I guess that was a face she earned in Braavos after killing the waif) to follow LF around if she wanted to. But she didn't, because she wanted LF to believe she wasn't much of a spy. She also entered her room without making a sound, so her picking and closing the lock of LF's room previous episode was noisy on purpose.

Arya already questioned Sansa's loyalty to Jon. LF used the letter to make her doubt Sansa's loyalty even more: by making it appear as if Sansa had asked him to check for the letter in Luwin's archive and then suppress it. And he's using the past to remind Arya of Sansa's non-loyalty. And she's pretending to fall for it.

But the empathic Arya peeps up for a moment when Sansa emotionally responds she survived a hell. She sounds almost apologetic. Which makes sense, because Sansa is truly upset and thus emotionally honest. 

Pretty sure that Sansa was utterly stunned when Arya handed her the dagger as harmless as possible (she turns it around and offer her the heft), after that oh-so-convincing lie of wanting her face and dresses. I also liked how Sansa was just plainly concerned over WTF has Arya gotten into when she saw the faces.

I really do hope this is how it plays out. But as I said earlier I don't think D&D is that deep. Rather I feel they'll just have Bran tell the sisters off screen in the next episode that LF is behind this whole shenanigan while they continue to build this fake drama and tension for the viewers and then they'll spring the aha moment on the viewers and all will be hugs and kisses between the Stark sisters. 

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

Lady Sandra is now officialy renamed to Ellaria Sand v2.0

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I mean, if I had a sister who basically accused me of all this shit that wasn't true, I would be defending myself too. It's not like Arya was in the mindset to accept anything without taking it as a confession.

What isn't true? That she didn't believe her father to be a traitor at the time? That she didn't think Joffrey the best prince that ever lived?

Arya was totally in a mindset to fuss out a lie. Oh, and Arya brought up her father from the get go, the same father she promised she'd never prick her sister.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I really do hope this is how it plays out. But as I said earlier I don't think D&D is that deep. Rather I feel they'll just have Bran tell the sisters off screen in the next episode that LF is behind this whole shenanigan while they continue to build this fake drama and tension for the viewers and then they'll spring the aha moment on the viewers and all will be hugs and kisses between the Stark sisters. 

Well, it all depends when we see Bran tell his sisters the stuff about LF. 

But if Arya was truly so angry with Sansa to want her face, she'd not have given the dagger to Sansa, while doing the lying game.

[teej6]

28 minutes ago, Pandean said:

GRRM's writing definitely points towards the importance of home, Winterfell, and the culture/life she originally shunned.

 

And I definitely can see Sansa, both show and book, becoming the Stark in Winterfell. I think that's what it's being set up for.

Jon is not a Stark (literally). Arya, I can't even fathom every being Lady of Winterfell. Bran is the 3ER. Everyone else is dead.

I think it's a nice way to show her arc and in the show you can see her returning to her Northern roots one season at a time.

TBH, I think she's the most Stark-like of her siblings. 

Rickon is not dead in the books and FYI Manderly has sent Davos to recover Rickon from Skagos, which I'm willing to bet he'll succeed at. They just gave Rickon's WF plot to Sansa on the show. Rickon may not survive till the end of the books but Davos will most likely find him and the North will probably rally behind him.

And no, Sansa is not the most Stark-like in either the show or the books. 

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

What isn't true? That she didn't believe her father to be a traitor at the time? That she didn't think Joffrey the best prince that ever lived?

Arya was totally in a mindset to fuss out a lie. Oh, and Arya brought up her father from the get go, the same father she promised she'd never prick her sister.

Okay, I'm not following...

[teej6]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, it all depends when we see Bran tell his sisters the stuff about LF. 

But if Arya was truly so angry with Sansa to want her face, she'd not have given the dagger to Sansa, while doing the lying game.

True. I would be a happy camper if it plays out as you described it. 

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Pandean said:

Okay, I'm not following...

You're saying that Arya accuses Sansa of shit that isn't true. But it is true what Arya accuses her of. They're not lies. And no, Sansa shouldn't be lying to her sister about it and making excuses. It just makes her look more guilty, especially if you go snopping in her room to retrieve the letter. 

She does like the finer things in life. She does believe herself superior to her father, Robb, Jon, etc. She stands on her sister calling her Lady Stark, while she herself never even uses "Your Grace" to Jon. She goes on about how she won the battle against Ramsay because of the Vale, after never telling Jon about the Vale army for weeks, and she admitted that mistake to Jon. And she, involuntarily and unwittingly, she did help Ned getting killed. She pleaded for his life, which led to him confessing to a treason he'd otherwise never had confessed to, and that was the opportunity used to behead him. It's not her fault, but she unwittingly played a part in it.

 

[greensleeves]

25 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I didn't misread you post. I was responding to the poster who said Sansa's book arc is  "from and to Winterfell".  Sansa longs for home but knows that the Starks don't hold WF anymore and hence she is not trying to get back to WF. 

 

40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Which part of of my statement that I know Sansa longs for home did you not get? She wants to go home but her arc is not "from and to Winterfell" coz she never does go to WF. Dontos may have suggested he'll get her home but she doesn't try and get LF to take her to WF or anything of the sort coz Sansa is aware that WF is not with Starks anymore and ergo not home. 

 

You are wrong. The home she expects from Dontos and LF is Winterfell.

Quote

“Here?” She did not want to go ashore here. The Fingers were a dismal place, she’d heard, and there was something forlorn and desolate about the little tower. “Couldn’t I stay on the ship until we make sail for White Harbor?”

 

Quote

 

Petyr yelped, as the snow slid down under his collar. “That was unchivalrously done, my lady.”

“As was bringing me here, when you swore to take me home.”

She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

 

 

It's what he continues to promise her when we're last with her:

Quote

why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”

 

[greensleeves]

45 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Some people just have a need to try to impress others with their smug superiority though and no matter what you say they will never admit they were wrong. 

Yeah okay. I'll stop now.

I might have to finish my collection of Sansa-related Winterfell quotes though. I tried to put them all together once, but there were just too many.

[DireWolfSpirit]

2 hours ago, direwoofwoof said:

Exactly! I think Sansa sent Brianne away so she could not protect Arya, but Sansa does not really know what Arya is capable of, even though she has seen her fight and heard about the stories. Sansa may be politically cunning, but Arya is ruthless. Don't F with Arya!

Arya has given Sansa fair warning to not betray Jon or there will be severe consequences for her.

[Green Knight]

11 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Yeah okay. I'll stop now.

I might have to finish my collection of Sansa-related Winterfell quotes though. I tried to put them all together once, but there were just too many.

Why stop? Go man go, you're doing great!