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More holes in the plot than used fishnet stockings


Wolf's Bane

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1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

I said elsewhere, the pacing of the whole story has been wrong for years.  Both books and show.  If the show was paced like the books then it wouldn't have survived and we'd be getting no ending at all.  So I am just grateful for that.

Yeah I agree on that. The books problems rolled over into the show in seasons 5 and 6. I'm finding it hard to blame Martin for any of this however, the pacing issues are magnified a thousand times right now. Its like watching a trailer for Game of Thrones. A long one.

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1 hour ago, Banjo said:

When someone's kid dies, they go into shock. There is no room for romance and thinking of others or even functioning normally for a while. You shed only tears for acquaintances or distance relatives

Because everyone processes grief the same? sure. ok.

 

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3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yeah I agree on that. The books problems rolled over into the show in seasons 5 and 6. I'm finding it hard to blame Martin for any of this however, the pacing issues are magnified a thousand times right now. Its like watching a trailer for Game of Thrones. A long one.

Still Martin's fault ultimately because if the showrunners had source material to work with, things could have been done a lot better.

But I do agree that all the character travelling is annoying.  Would be much better if they spent most of their time in one place or been a bit more logical.  For example I see no reason why Dany couldn't have travelled to the Wall (once she heard they had arrived) and been at the Wall already when the distress raven came in.  That would have made more sense.

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6 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yeah I agree on that. The books problems rolled over into the show in seasons 5 and 6. I'm finding it hard to blame Martin for any of this however, the pacing issues are magnified a thousand times right now. Its like watching a trailer for Game of Thrones. A long one.

Seriously?

Martin is the one who overlapped the last 35% of book 3, ALL of book 4, and Most of book 5, simultaneously over each other. 

And you really think the books don't have a pacing issue? 

:rofl:

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13 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yeah I agree on that. The books problems rolled over into the show in seasons 5 and 6. I'm finding it hard to blame Martin for any of this however, the pacing issues are magnified a thousand times right now. Its like watching a trailer for Game of Thrones. A long one.

It doesn't help when we get 10 minutes of Missandei and Greyworm's nubbing and then the whole Tyrion, Missandei, Greyworm's drinking games for another 10 minutes, that pitiful excuse for a subplot in Dorne a few season's ago to show sand snake titties, and then they take Jaime to where he was supposed to be a season later,  a season without Bran, I mean it's been a cluster fuck since the Red Wedding let's be honest.  The only thing added that was interesting in my opinion since season 3's end (Jon rebirth and tower of Joy don't count) has been the watch mutiny.  

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4 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Seriously?

Martin is the one who overlapped the last 35% of book 3, ALL of book 4, and Most of book 5, simultaneously over each other. 

And you really think the books don't have a pacing issue? 

:rofl:

I'm not sure how poor pacing in an adaptation is the fault of the source material.  The lack of source material has simply, finally shown in the full light of day the vast weaknesses of the showrunners that were always there, from day one, but were papered over through liberal use of the source material including entire scenes and pages of dialogue as well as $$$$ for exotic locations, expensive CGI, fantastic casting and so forth.

Now, not even the HBO $$ can hide the weaknesses in the writing and construction of the storylines.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Still Martin's fault ultimately because if the showrunners had source material to work with, things could have been done a lot better.

But I do agree that all the character travelling is annoying.  Would be much better if they spent most of their time in one place or been a bit more logical.  For example I see no reason why Dany couldn't have travelled to the Wall (once she heard they had arrived) and been at the Wall already when the distress raven came in.  That would have made more sense.

Well I think that (hope that) Martin is telling a far bigger story , even if they end up at the same place. Like I said, Martin is certainly at fault for issues in 5+6 because his books HAD to be shortened and fixed to work for tv somehow, because they are too long and too uneventful. But at the same time D&D should be aware of their own end game and be planning for that. 

Their solution it seems was to cut down the amount of episodes a season in order to spend more money on each, whilst at the same time cutting out every other sentence in the script in order to save on time. They have compressed all the plot points into such a small amount of space and time that the show barely functions on a dramatic level any more, and its sad for me to see. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Haskelltier said:

Where is the problem? Well, big plot holes, idiotic decisions and a behavior of characters which makes no sense, kills my immersion and thats the worst thing that can happen. When the plot is bad, you can have the best CGI and combat scenes in the world, but that doesn't save the show. This is especially true for A Game of Thrones, because the different characters, the different motivations and the different interesting plots made the show so amazing. Look at the first sessions, there wasn't much CGI (at least not in the quality we have now), there weren't great battle scenes (the first battle was left out entirely and the Battle of Blackwater Bay was cut short), but the story was better and so was the show (at least in my eyes).

That's more or less what I've said in another topic:

" In general when I watch a movie or a series that has been done with a lot of effort but with bad results, I might feel disappointed but I never actually feel offended. An example is the movie The patriot. Even though I don't like the movie at all for several reasons, I don't feel cheated by Emmerich. On the other hand, I feel somehow betrayed when I see that there are flaws (either in the plot or in the realization) that can only be explained with the assumption that the creators simply didn't care. This is the whatever theory: sometimes, when nothing makes sense, the key for understanding the deep meaning of what you're watching is to assume that either the director or the screenwriter or both simply didn't spend enough time to think about it.

So if you'll ask something about Jamie's weird survival, the answer will simply be "whatever, the important thing is that he's alive and able to go back to Cersei" 
Jon's resurrection was a pretty big deal, can we have some insights on what he feels or how that experience changed him? I mean it doesn't happen every day to come back from the death!
Answer: "Whatever, he was dead, now he's alive, just be happy and keep watching". 
None of what happened with the zombie plan makes any sense, from the idea itself, to the decision to send precisely Jon and Jorah, up to the inexplicable choice of the Hound and Tormund to join the suicide squad. "whatever, isn't it cool to have all these characters together?"

So "whatever" in this case means at the same time "whatever, I don't care" and "whatever makes people watch it". 

By the way, even though many of you had to complain about Jamie's survival, it seems to me that nobody said anything about the most annoying thing, that is that they ended the previous episode with a cliffhanger that turned out to be a bluff. 

The problem with the Whatever Scenes is that I suddenly feel less involved in the story as soon as I see one of them. "

The other problem I have with the show is in the way characters are presented. I always have compassion for them on the basis of what I know happened to them, but I very rarely feel involved in their story because of the way they behave. That's more or less the reason why I find Daenerys pretty uninteresting even though she's supposed to be a very deep character. I know that she has suffered a lot and that she has a great responsibility, but from the way her lines are written and the character is portrayed I feel nothing.
So the very simple scene of Better Call Saul in which a character steals the cigarette to another character is much more interesting than all the lines of Daenerys combined, because it feels more authentic. And it has nothing to do with the fact that this is a Fantasy and that one is not.
 

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18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not sure how poor pacing in an adaptation is the fault of the source material.  The lack of source material has simply, finally shown in the full light of day the vast weaknesses of the showrunners that were always there, from day one, but were papered over through liberal use of the source material including entire scenes and pages of dialogue as well as $$$$ for exotic locations, expensive CGI, fantastic casting and so forth.

Now, not even the HBO $$ can hide the weaknesses in the writing and construction of the storylines.

How can you say that poor pacing isn't the fault of the source material when it's a problem IN the source material?

Can you imagine if they attempted to tell the story in book order? They'd be going back in time at the start of Books 4 and 5. 

 

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1 minute ago, ShadowKitteh said:

How can you say that poor pacing isn't the fault of the source material when it's a problem IN the source material?

Can you imagine if they attempted to tell the story in book order? They'd be going back in time at the start of Books 4 and 5. 

 

Um, because it's an adaptation, and a different medium.  You know, books are the books, show is the show.  So, when something is adapted for the screen, changes are made to accommodate the visual medium and deal with issues of pace/plot/character, etc.  You can blame some plot points on the source material, but pacing is wholly an issue of the showrunners.

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58 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

And you really think the books don't have a pacing issue? 

:rofl:

Chapter 1:

Brienne goes for a walk.

 

Chapter 31:

Brienne is still strolling.

 

Chapter 1,098,013,191,065:

"My goodness," said Brienne, "It's nice to get some exercise."

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Exactly - to both of these comments re chains and non-swimming-then-swimming WW.  

We have seen dead men turn into blue-eyed WW ever since Season 1, so why did the NK need to touch Viserion to turn him into a WW dragon?  Plus, I think the shot could have been so much better to have WW Viserion pound up through the frozen lake - like an icy phoenix.

Unless, of course, the Godswood Lake at Winterfell is actually the remains of a previous ice dragon that they play to reanimate later in the series.

Still, pulling the dragon out of the lake with chains was a silly idea.

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1 hour ago, Nakraal said:

So you think a raven goes 2000 miles a day. Sure thing.

First, there's no indication whatsoever that anyone flew anywhere in a day.  There is an indication, rather, of an undefined period o time passing.

Second, I have no problem thinking the magic and specially-bred ravens in ASOIAF can make that flight in 30 or so hours.  The return flight by the dragon not only can, but must occur much faster if you understand anything about aerodynamics.

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12 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

First, there's no indication whatsoever that anyone flew anywhere in a day.  There is an indication, rather, of an undefined period o time passing.

Second, I have no problem thinking the magic and specially-bred ravens in ASOIAF can make that flight in 30 or so hours.  The return flight by the dragon not only can, but must occur much faster if you understand anything about aerodynamics.

They show one night and one dawn. I'm sure it would be very easy to establish time passing with minor alteration in the couple of scenes where they were waiting.

Second, there is also no mention of ravens being magic. Ravens are ravens and it is established that raven messaging takes time. The return flight has problems with Danny flying at that speed on top of a dragon.

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The use of chains was a silly idea, unless it's to show the audience that White Walkers are somewhat resourceful and that the Night King can plan and act strategic.

Would have been way more effective, as others have pointed out, for him to concentrate ala hardhome and raise up the beast from the icy lake.

This television show has become a video game.

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On 21.8.2017 at 4:44 AM, TheMachine said:

This is a tv show. Enjoy it.

This!

Not more.
Not less.

(For me, the biggest plothole was/is the thin ice at the lake - how in hell could an ice-surface so thin in a land with temperatures below zero all the year? And conveniently it froze solid over night...
Maybe this lake is called the lake of the false summer...???)

 

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15 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

First, there's no indication whatsoever that anyone flew anywhere in a day.  There is an indication, rather, of an undefined period o time passing.

Second, I have no problem thinking the magic and specially-bred ravens in ASOIAF can make that flight in 30 or so hours.  The return flight by the dragon not only can, but must occur much faster if you understand anything about aerodynamics.

When you have to make up solutions.....like magic, specially bred ravens....that have never been introduced into the show, it's a sign of poor writing.  

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

When you have to make up solutions.....like magic, specially bred ravens....that have never been introduced into the show, it's a sign of poor writing.  

How fast do ravens travel in the books? Faster than standard carrier pigeons who can cover up to 700 miles in a day? In either medium it is never specifically explained how the ravens work.

The fact is that Westeros in the show is much smaller than its size in the books. Around half the scale of this map http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg

Three stated show distances*: 1000 mile from KL to Winterfell, 40 leagues (~140 miles) Winterfell to Torrhen's Square, 200 miles from The Inn at the Crossroads to KL all match up with that scaling. 

That makes the distance from Eastwatch to Dragonstone around 1000 miles which isn't so outlandish for a raven to make that distance in around a day.

*some one needs to remeasure The Wall.

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