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Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???


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33 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

How does it not make sense.  This is laid out in the show pretty clearly.

LF gives Sansa to the Bolton's so he can.....

Then go get the Vale to and gather the army to "rescue" her.  So that he can have the North and the Vale under his thumb via controlling/manipulating SweetRobin and Sansa.

It was a power grab plot by LF.

Only he didn't know that Ramsey was a psycho to the point that giving Sansa to him would cost him Sansa's trust.

Still, it made perfect sense for LF to do it given his goals.

It doesn't make sense that Sansa would agree to LF's plan - especially considering the ordeal she had just endured in KL.

When a character makes a decision not based on what that character would do in the situation, but based on the fact that the show runners want to have her raped, that is bad, contrived writing.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

How does it not make sense.  This is laid out in the show pretty clearly.

LF gives Sansa to the Bolton's so he can.....

Then go get the Vale to and gather the army to "rescue" her.  So that he can have the North and the Vale under his thumb via controlling/manipulating SweetRobin and Sansa.

It was a power grab plot by LF.

Only he didn't know that Ramsey was a psycho to the point that giving Sansa to him would cost him Sansa's trust.

Still, it made perfect sense for LF to do it given his goals.

I was going to respond to this but Cas Stark pretty much covered what I was going to say.

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6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

@The Fattest LeechAs for the speculation on "who's to blame":

Why they write plotzee alt-fanfic can only be speculated about, and I personally think it's a combination of various reasons.

  • streamlining for production reasons
  • budget. For example I think they knew from S2 onward that they could never do the Vale tWoW arc for budget reasons. They didn't get their polar bear for example until this season, while it's a feature of the attack on the Fist beyond the Wall (should be S3 stuff)
  • an agreement with George not to spoil certain fates and major twists of tWoW, and moved up deadline and delay each season (evidence from S4 on):
    • hence Jaime on a tangent in Dorne, then getting his RL plot sort of and returning to a Cersei that even Unsullied expect Jaime to abandon at the start of S7. His fate in aDwD hangs on a cliffhanger. Brienne has been on a tangent ever since.
    • hence Stannis gets a fate if you take the Pink Letter at face value
    • hence Edmure's fate is shelved and BF killed, as tWoW prologue has Jeyne Westerling in it
    • hence they somewhat confirmed in broad lines that Sansa and the Vale army will end up at WF, Rickon likely dies, Jon will end up as KitN, R+L=J, Hodor, Dany sails for Westeros, that Sandor is the gravedigger and get back into the action as will Gendry, Arya will return to Westeros, House Frey, House Tyrell, House Martell and House Bolton will be decimated somehow, Euron's gonna be trouble, Cersei will blow something up.
    • this may be the reason why the writing team is so small and not expanded: keep what they know whether they do it differently or not within a small circle. And this puts enormous strain and weariness. It's completely not done in the industry to micro-manage the writing for this long, because you have less time and need insight from fresh eyes on flaws.
  • their inexperience at production
  • their fanboyism of and catering to certain actors and personal vision
  • they're not George

The more they went off-the books, even when they still had books, the poorer the writing, even if the acting chemistry made it a riveting watch. Arya's Harrenhal plot is definitely poorer than the book one (especially the resolution of it), but Charles Dance and Maisie save it. They try to come up with twists of their own, without betraying George's tWoW twists he has already, but as architects and weary writers the how-to gives it away and just comes across as faux-tension, and they make huge mistakes against logic. Their inside the episode for this episode makes that clear.

I don't think GRRM has anything to do with D&D's poor writing, pacing and or plotting. I think the poor writing is due to the same issues most TV shows, games and movies have nowadays... Everything is constantly dumbed down and streamlined to appeal to larger and larger audiences so things that are complex get pushed aside. GRRM told them the large beats of the end of his story already but it was up to them, D&D to create a coherent story to get to each plot point. And as u said Budget def plays a part which is pretty bad. They introduced the Direwolves in the first episode and basically decided to scrap that storyline due to budget, in the middle of the story. The Direwolfs are a huge part of ASOIAF. or maybe better said, a huge part of the fabric of the story beneath the main story. A part of the armature.

great post!

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12 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

But yeah...it seems as if the show is in such a rush that it doesn't have time for basic logic behind its plots anymore.

yeah, but more than the time in terms of episodes that are left to be aired, it seems to me that what they were lacking was really the time needed by them to sit down, stay calm and think about a plot that makes sense. 

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8 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

The show does acknowledge it is a stupid idea repeatedly.

How many on screen conversations do we have to ignore in order to say the characters don't think it is stupid?  A half dozen or so?

This post is like many others.....it basically ignores half of what has been presented on screen in order to complain about the show.

7 guys didn't go.  How many went?  Not 7.  I guess we just ignore that it was twice that.

Just like we ignore every other character calling it stupid.  Thormund calls it stupid a half dozen times.  They even explain why they are doing the stupid mission to him.....over the two stupid Queens that they need.  Even Dany calls it stupid.  She has a whole conversation about how these heros out stupid each other.....

 

I think it was 13 guys, the magnificent 7 and 6 red shirts.  Still not a significant enough party to have any expectation of success.

I hate to mention it, but when a plotline is so stupid and contrived that characters are forced to comment on the utter stupidity of it....that's usually a bad sign, same thing they had multiple people tell Jamie his Dorne plot was stupid....because it was so stupid it had to somehow be acknowledged by the show.  Same here.  

Why not just do something that isn't so stupid it has to be called stupid in universe?  

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7 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

It doesn't make sense that Sansa would agree to LF's plan - especially considering the ordeal she had just endured in KL.

When a character makes a decision not based on what that character would do in the situation, but based on the fact that the show runners want to have her raped, that is bad, contrived writing.

It makes complete sense that Sansa trusted LF.  He was the only friend she had for a long time.

It also makes total sense that she no longer trusts LF.

Why wouldn't Sansa trust LF at that point in the story?  She had just been rescued by LF from Kings Landing.  What wouldn't have made sense at that point is her not trusting Littlefinger.

At that point in the story all Sansa knows about LF is that he's risked his neck to save her and that he appears to be in love with her. 

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I think it was 13 guys, the magnificent 7 and 6 red shirts.  Still not a significant enough party to have any expectation of success.

I hate to mention it, but when a plotline is so stupid and contrived that characters are forced to comment on the utter stupidity of it....that's usually a bad sign, same thing they had multiple people tell Jamie his Dorne plot was stupid....because it was so stupid it had to somehow be acknowledged by the show.  Same here.  

Why not just do something that isn't so stupid it has to be called stupid in universe?  

Oh, they are to take a big army to grab a wight on a stealth mission?

Yeah, that wouldn't have made sense.  What they did was what would have made sense.

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why not just do something that isn't so stupid it has to be called stupid in universe?  

Lol, I agree. it's like if they were apologizing by saying: "it's not us, it's them!" 
The problem is that the plan was proposed by someone who is supposed to be smart in the show. 

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1 minute ago, Lord Okra said:

Oh, they are to take a big army to grab a wight on a stealth mission?

Yeah, that wouldn't have made sense.  What they did was what would have made sense.

No.  Grabbing a wight with an expectation that Cersei, who has murdered/backstabbed everyone in her life who crossed her including her own brother, with an expectation of anything but more backstabbing and betrayal is what is stupid.

Tyrion, who has seen his sister's machinations up close and personal should be screaming from the rooftops that she will never commit her forces to fight the army of the dead, she will use them against her human enemies because that's how she rolls.

So, that he supports and advances this plan makes it twice as stupid.  

And this brings us back to the central stupidity of the season, of why, other than plot reasons, Dany did not just roll into KL, and demand they send out the queen and offer amnesty to everyone else.  She can have Drogon burn down a couple of gates for good measure.  And, voila, Cersei is out before the sun goes down.

But this is how poor storytelling works, it compounds stupidity on top of stupidity......which is why this particular plotline has gotten so much more criticism than the other previous stupid plots.  It finally is one wafer of stupidity too many.

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 

Why not just do something that isn't so stupid it has to be called stupid in universe?  

Well I mean people do stupid things all the time in real life and people that see them doing these stupid things call them stupid. lol

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4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Well I mean people do stupid things all the time in real life and people that see them doing these stupid things call them stupid. lol

It's not real life, because in real life...stupidity has consequences. Gendry would have died before he reached Eastwatch, and every single one of the party of wight hunters except the already dead Jon Snow would also have died.  So, you can't really have it both ways. If the answer to stupid senseless plots in entertainment is that people do stupid senseless things in RL then they need to see the same consequences.

But, by all means if your point is that GOT is now a show about deeply stupid people doing deeply stupid things and escaping any consequences whatsoever every episode, then I am with you 100%.

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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's not real life, because in real life...stupidity has consequences. Gendry would have died before he reached Eastwatch, and every single one of the party of wight hunters except the already dead Jon Snow would also have died.  So, you can't really have it both ways. If the answer to stupid senseless plots in entertainment is that people do stupid senseless things in RL then they need to see the same consequences.

But, by all means if your point is that GOT is now a show about deeply stupid people doing deeply stupid things and escaping any consequences whatsoever every episode, then I am with you 100%.

I was merely making a joke. But to address your points why would Gendry die prior to reaching Eastwatch? (nevermind the fact he nearly did when he collapsed prior to reaching the gate) And I agree the magnificent seven would have died had Dany and her dragons not showed up. They got extremely lucky that she showed up when she did.

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21 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

No.  Grabbing a wight with an expectation that Cersei, who has murdered/backstabbed everyone in her life who crossed her including her own brother, with an expectation of anything but more backstabbing and betrayal is what is stupid.

Tyrion, who has seen his sister's machinations up close and personal should be screaming from the rooftops that she will never commit her forces to fight the army of the dead, she will use them against her human enemies because that's how she rolls.

So, that he supports and advances this plan makes it twice as stupid.  

And this brings us back to the central stupidity of the season, of why, other than plot reasons, Dany did not just roll into KL, and demand they send out the queen and offer amnesty to everyone else.  She can have Drogon burn down a couple of gates for good measure.  And, voila, Cersei is out before the sun goes down.

But this is how poor storytelling works, it compounds stupidity on top of stupidity......which is why this particular plotline has gotten so much more criticism than the other previous stupid plots.  It finally is one wafer of stupidity too many.

You are still conveniently leaving out the actual reason they went to the wall to grab a wight......to convince the entire realm (esp Dany) that the IT squabble is just a distraction from the real issue.

As far as Tryion......it isn't even to convince Cersie.......this is just a steady stream of posters ignoring what actually was said and happened on screen.  Tyrion wants to convince JAMIE so that he can control Cersie.  Nobody....and I mean NOBODY....in show.....thinks they can trust Cersie but they do need somebody to hold her in check and so they are trying to convince JAMIE.

But let us just ignore that this meeting is for the ENTIRE REALM leadership and to convince the ENTIRE SOUTH that they need to come together with Jon.....and now finally Dany.....since she was convinced by the "stupid" mission......cause, you know....she saw.....

Like I said, you have to ignore half the actual on screen footage and conversations to make these asinine complaints.

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2 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I was merely making a joke. But to address your points why would Gendry die prior to reaching Eastwatch? (nevermind the fact he nearly did when he collapsed prior to reaching the gate) And I agree the magnificent seven would have died had Dany and her dragons not showed up. They got extremely lucky that she showed up when she did.

Because he has no skills that are relatable to surviving in the North.  He has no skills as a tracker, or at surviving in freezing temperature, and other than it being stated 'he's the fastest' totally out of the blue, there is nothing in the show that suggests any reason for it.  We know he is strong, both because it has been shown in the show numerous times and because he's Bobby B's son.  But 'the fastest' based on what?  A kid from fleabottom whose never been North is going to get lost and die out there in the 'ever twilight' that the show created in order to muddle their own timeframe, as the director admitted.

I didn't mind too much that Davos sought him out, or even that he would agree to go with them, he's been shown to have an inner sense of justice already.  But, ? the fastest?  the fuck?  Why? since when?  

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3 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

You are still conveniently leaving out the actual reason they went to the wall to grab a wight......to convince the entire realm (esp Dany) that the IT squabble is just a distraction from the real issue.

As far as Tryion......it isn't even to convince Cersie.......this is just a steady stream of posters ignoring what actually was said and happened on screen.  Tyrion wants to convince JAMIE so that he can control Cersie.  Nobody....and I mean NOBODY....in show.....thinks they can trust Cersie but they do need somebody to hold her in check and so they are trying to convince JAMIE.

But let us just ignore that this meeting is for the ENTIRE REALM leadership and to convince the ENTIRE SOUTH that they need to come together with Jon.....and now finally Dany.....since she was convinced by the "stupid" mission......cause, you know....she saw.....

Like I said, you have to ignore half the actual on screen footage and conversations to make these asinine complaints.

If it was to convince Dany she could have just flown North on Drogon and see for herself, like she ends up doing.  Much easier and safe for everyone including the dragons.  

The show has made it clear that Cersei controls Jamie, so again, the idea that Jamie can control his sister now that she is queen is stupid.  he has never been able to control her before, why now?  Stupid.

What entire realm are you talking about?  The Vale is already committed.  The riverlands are leaderless and they already fought for the Starks once, so they won't need convincing.  The Reach just bent the knee to Dany, Dorne is already her ally.  So that leaves the Westerlands and the Stormlands?  We will leave Euron out of it for the time being, but suffice it to say a kinslaying nut isn't going to care about the army of the dead either.

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39 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

It makes complete sense that Sansa trusted LF.  He was the only friend she had for a long time.

It also makes total sense that she no longer trusts LF.

Why wouldn't Sansa trust LF at that point in the story?  She had just been rescued by LF from Kings Landing.  What wouldn't have made sense at that point is her not trusting Littlefinger.

At that point in the story all Sansa knows about LF is that he's risked his neck to save her and that he appears to be in love with her. 

Whether she trusted LF or not - which she should be quite weary of trusting ANYONE, considering she had just been betrayed by all of the people she trusted in KL -  she would have never agreed to be a pawn in such a stupid and risky plan that would make her a hostage to her enemies; You know, the exact same traumatic situation she just got out of.

Even if she did trust LF as you claim, a more plausible response from her would have been something like:

"Although I trust you, and am great full for all you've done to help me, there is no fucking way in Seven Hells I'm going to be a pawn married off to my enemies again, come up with another plan." 

But you can't have that, because d&d wanted to have their disturbing and shocking scene, so they throw all logic out the window in order to force in what to them "creatively made sense, because they wanted it to happen."

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7 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

You are still conveniently leaving out the actual reason they went to the wall to grab a wight......to convince the entire realm (esp Dany) that the IT squabble is just a distraction from the real issue.

As far as Tryion......it isn't even to convince Cersie.......this is just a steady stream of posters ignoring what actually was said and happened on screen.  Tyrion wants to convince JAMIE so that he can control Cersie.  Nobody....and I mean NOBODY....in show.....thinks they can trust Cersie but they do need somebody to hold her in check and so they are trying to convince JAMIE.

But let us just ignore that this meeting is for the ENTIRE REALM leadership and to convince the ENTIRE SOUTH that they need to come together with Jon.....and now finally Dany.....since she was convinced by the "stupid" mission......cause, you know....she saw.....

Like I said, you have to ignore half the actual on screen footage and conversations to make these asinine complaints.

The Realm only consist in KL. Dorne is gone, so is The Reach and Stormlands, Riverlands is gone since the Freys are gone. No one in the West, that was abandoned. And Vale is in the North. So what realm? 

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10 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

You are still conveniently leaving out the actual reason they went to the wall to grab a wight......to convince the entire realm (esp Dany) that the IT squabble is just a distraction from the real issue.

As far as Tryion......it isn't even to convince Cersie.......this is just a steady stream of posters ignoring what actually was said and happened on screen.  Tyrion wants to convince JAMIE so that he can control Cersie.  Nobody....and I mean NOBODY....in show.....thinks they can trust Cersie but they do need somebody to hold her in check and so they are trying to convince JAMIE.

But let us just ignore that this meeting is for the ENTIRE REALM leadership and to convince the ENTIRE SOUTH that they need to come together with Jon.....and now finally Dany.....since she was convinced by the "stupid" mission......cause, you know....she saw.....

Like I said, you have to ignore half the actual on screen footage and conversations to make these asinine complaints.

None of this changes the fact that the plan for the wight hunt is stupid and basically relied upon the fastest, healthiest raven to ever fly for it to even half work.  IF we want to go with the stupidity that Jaime could EVER control the sister who did threaten him in the past episode...........they could have at least tried to think of a plan that didn't rely on miracles to make it half work.  Once Dany was ready to sit and wait for the outcome and send her beloved friendzoned Jorah along, she might as well have just flown up there herself to scoop up a wight immediately with Jon's help.  It would have made more sense.  But, with this show, a season is not complete unless the Ds have sent Jon on a stupid, death defying mission that he should not be able to survive.  It's been this way since The Craster's Keep Rapefest of Boredom.  It only serves to make Jon look stupid and impulsive, and always in need of saving.  He's the biggest damsel in distress on this show, sad to say. 

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Because he has no skills that are relatable to surviving in the North.  He has no skills as a tracker, or at surviving in freezing temperature, and other than it being stated 'he's the fastest' totally out of the blue, there is nothing in the show that suggests any reason for it.  We know he is strong, both because it has been shown in the show numerous times and because he's Bobby B's son.  But 'the fastest' based on what?  A kid from fleabottom whose never been North is going to get lost and die out there in the 'ever twilight' that the show created in order to muddle their own timeframe, as the director admitted.

I didn't mind too much that Davos sought him out, or even that he would agree to go with them, he's been shown to have an inner sense of justice already.  But, ? the fastest?  the fuck?  Why? since when?  

They didn't ask him to survive in the North they just asked him to run back to Eastwatch.  Did you want them to like hold a race to decide who was the fastest among them? Or is so hard to believe that they deemed him the fastest because happened to be the youngest of the group and looked be in great physical shape.

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43 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

It doesn't make sense that Sansa would agree to LF's plan - especially considering the ordeal she had just endured in KL.

When a character makes a decision not based on what that character would do in the situation, but based on the fact that the show runners want to have her raped, that is bad, contrived writing.

Sansa's character literally JUST covered up her aunt's murder for LF where she totally disregarded relevant information about the death that brought her whole family to King's Landing in the first place because she felt safer with him than anybody else. Sansa didn't know a single thing about Ramsay Bolton. She knew Roose betrayed her brother who had all but lost the war against the Lannister's in a survival bid. Yeah she had to put up with traitors, but for all she knew, she was going back to be installed as the future lady of Winterfell (at time when she believed all her family was dead). This was literally her only chance ever to go back home around northerners and be in a role she actually wanted. 

Remember, when Sansa left she was wanted for murder by the crown and Pretty much everywhere in the realm was united behind the crown. The Vale was doing her a solid by hiding her. The Bolton's needed her to stabilize the North. 

There's plenty of reasons why Sansa would go North. She trusted LF, she could go be the heiress to the warden of the North and be the lady of Winterfell again, it was one of the only two places she was safe from Cersei, and she wasn't informed about how bad Ramsay was. 

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