Cron

Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

973 posts in this topic

I really love the show, but damn - D&D and this writing is just lackluster.  The relay from Jon to Gendry to ravens to Dragonstone to North of the Wall was nothing less than "f it, why be creative."

It just makes no sense.  Dragonglass!  It had to be mined to fight the Night King, but f it, none of our heros thought to bring any?

Just dumb.

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4 minutes ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

IMO: Just swallow the pill the tv show along with your  family and friends

 

 

The book writing will be so much better

Well, yeah, there's still a lot of great stuff on the show, too.

Just two weeks ago I gave that episode a "10," and I still think it might be at least tied for the best episode ever.

And overall this season has had a LOT of great stuff, in my opinion.

Here's hoping it finishes really strong with the finale.

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3 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Homing pigeons can fly 750 miles in a day.

It is not unreasonable to think a special messenger raven could make the trip in a fantasy setting in a day.

Dragons are faster than fantasy messenger ravens.

I don't think the timing is really that much of an issue.  They marched 15ish miles past the wall.  Gendry makes it back in record time running for hours straight.  Messenger raven takes 24 hours to get to Dany.  Dragons take 6 hours or less to get back up North.....they fast.

We had a scene of them standing watching......break......scene of them sleeping.......Thoros dying in that time......break........scene of them bored from all the doing nothing leading to the fight.  First break between scenes could be 24ish hours.

 

Good, now tell me how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. 

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12 minutes ago, Old Blue Eyes said:

I really love the show, but damn - D&D and this writing is just lackluster.  The relay from Jon to Gendry to ravens to Dragonstone to North of the Wall was nothing less than "f it, why be creative."

It just makes no sense.  Dragonglass!  It had to be mined to fight the Night King, but f it, none of our heros thought to bring any?

Just dumb.

Also a great point.

Where were the dragonglass weapons?

According to other timelines I have seen, Jon was very likely at dragonstone for weeks.  Even if they didn't have a blacksmith there for most of that time, now that have Gendry, and I would have assumed he could whip something up either at Dragonstone or Eastwatch.

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2 minutes ago, Cron said:

Also a great point.

Where were the dragonglass weapons?

According to other timelines I have seen, Jon was very likely at dragonstone for weeks.  Even if they didn't have a blacksmith there for most of that time, now that have Gendry, and I would have assumed he could whip something up either at Dragonstone or Eastwatch.

I assumed they did have dragon glass weapons 

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2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I agree with you about it being a TV show but westero's is actually bigger then we think. The land beyond the wall is actually the size of canada according to G.R.R.M and if you look at a map of westeros the land beyond the wall is far smaller then most of the other kingdoms.

In the books.

Westeros is actually unrealistically large as a united seven kingdoms when the main mode of transport is horseback and there are allot of suggestions its size has been scaled back on the show. 

My problem with the North of the wall plotline is that they are there at all, to somehow capture a Wight to "convince" someone who has both lost their army and will never be convinced of anything beyond the need to maintain their own power.

In terms of the distances this episode however.

Firstly Gendry's run, they are what 30-40 miles, at most,  out from Eastwatch?, bearing in mind the army of the dead has probably been slowly making its way south of Hardhome towards Eastwatch. For a fit young man with nothing weighing him down, doable in the time frame shown.

Then we have the crucial question how far is it, ON THE SHOW, between Dragonstone and Eastwatch. Most people base their scaling of distances on the walls length of 300 miles and then extrapolating that to other distances, that does make Westeros far too large though IMO. The show has scaled down the size of the Nightswatch, it might then be logical to assume that they have scaled down the length of the wall and thus other distances, never explicitly said, as well? 

 

Edited by JagLover

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15 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I assumed they did have dragon glass weapons 

Perhaps.  You could be right.

I admit that the fighting scenes were so chaotic, and there was often so much snow in the air, I couldn't be sure.

Having said that, weren't there special effects when Sam used dragonglass against undead?  Didn't the undead shatter, or something like that?  And I don't seem to recall seeing anything like that going on in Ep,. 706.

 

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2 minutes ago, Cron said:

Perhaps.  You could be right.

I admit that the fighting scenes were so chaotic, and there was often so much snow in the air, I couldn't be sure.

Having said that, weren't there special effects when Sam used dragonglass against undead?  Didn't the undead shatter, or something like that?  And I don't seem to recall seeing anything like that going on in Ep,. 706.

 

Only White Walkers shatter from Dragon Glass or Valyrian Steal. Undead are easier to kill with Fire or Club and Hammer type weapons.

Worse thing is if the Hound starts claiming about not enough Chickens when they are being besieged by the White Walkers. 

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3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Is this a trick a question? :P

I would like to believe that the Night's King knew that Dany was coming, that's why he held off killing those blokes. Maybe, just like the red priests, he's got some way of seeing the future, a palantir or something. But that still leaves the problem of hypothermia, dehydration and starvation for those people. Maybe Beric would be ok, seeing that he is a sort of wight himself, and not sure about Jon. But the others should have been dead.

It's possible that all human magic in the show exists because the NK exists, so him being a greenseer, that knew Dany was coming, makes sense.

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9 minutes ago, JagLover said:

In the books.

Westeros is actually unrealistically large as a united seven kingdoms when the main mode of transport is horseback and there are allot of suggestions its size has been scaled back on the show. 

My problem with the North of the wall plotline is that they are there at all, to somehow capture a Wight to "convince" someone who has both lost their army and will never be convinced of anything beyond the need to maintain their own power.

In terms of the distances this episode however.

Firstly Gendry's run, they are what 30-40 miles, at most,  out from Eastwatch?, bearing in mind the army of the dead has probably been slowly making its way south of Hardhome towards Eastwatch. For a fit young man with nothing weighing him down, doable in the time frame shown.

Then we have the crucial question how far is it, ON THE SHOW, between Dragonstone and Eastwatch. Most people base their scaling of distances on the walls length of 300 miles and then extrapolating that to other distances, that does make Westeros far too large though IMO. The show has scaled down the size of the Nightswatch, it might then be logical to assume that they have scaled down the length of the wall and thus other distances, never explicitly said, as well? 

 

Regarding distances on the show versus the books:

To my strong memory, we were told in Season One (and/or perhaps at other times in the show) that the distance between Winterfell and King's Landing is 1,000 miles, just like in the books.

Thus, I believe, the "scale" for the show was established, and anything different after that is just inconsistency.

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1 minute ago, ummester said:

It's possible that all human magic in the show exists because the NK exists, so him being a greenseer, that knew Dany was coming, makes sense.

I think he held off because he couldn't tell the lake was frozen until the hound threw a rock. I'm not going to give him any more credit than he deserves on this. 

Everyhing here happens due to sheer stupidity 

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39 minutes ago, Cron said:

I love GoT, and will be with it until the end, but I've gotta say, this was just shocking.

As you basically say, apparently no one even noticed an issue with it.

How is that possible?

Take a look at a map of Westeros.  I'd say it's got to be 1,000 miles EACH WAY from Eastwatch to Dragonstone, and that's not counting the distance Gendry ran on foot (presumably, some miles, at least)

And to this day, I have no idea why those guys went north of the Wall with no horses OR hats.  Totally inexplicable.  (At least Qhorin Halfhand had the sense to put a hat on his head.  Pretty sure Benjen wore a hat, too and he was half undead!)

Distance between the Wall and southern Dorne is 3000 miles, that is a confirmed distance by the man himself. Now you can calculate the distance between Dragonstone and The wall; it's not 1000, it is more like 2000 miles or 3200 kilometers.

So to make it work, meaning ravens fly with the average speed of 160-200 km/h, continuously, without a pause. And they fly at night as well because radar/night vision (in real life birds don't fly at night). Dragons should also go anywhere around 400-800km/h.

Yup, I definitely 'buy it'.

PS: So we are to assume our King of the North is now on cruise (ship also had to make it there in time btw, probably somewhere around 200km/h)? Oh my, will Sansa be glad when he comes back "Sooooooo, you gave the Night King a nuclear weapon, you give the Night King means to cross the wall and then you go on a cruise? What made you think this was a good idea? To make Cersei change her mind about us? What?"

Edited by plastic throne

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Take a look at a map of Westeros.

It is 1,000 miles from Winterfell to King's Landing.  That is known.

The distance between Eastwatch and Dragonstone looks to me to be very close to the same, and that's not counting the distance north of the wall that Gendry ran on foot (an unknown distance, but surely some miles, I would think)

That has been stated on the show that is true. That is however less than the distance stated in the books by over 500 miles or so. Over because in the books it is 1,500 miles as the crow flies, not by road. So the Show Westeros IS considerable smaller.

Furthermore a thousand miles sounds the sort of casual exaggeration you would use in conversation. They have been travelling for a month to get from KL to Winterfell (Cersei Season 1) in a heavily laden caravan that would no doubt have been pausing to hunt and greet local nobles. Realistically that is 30 x 20-30 miles a day. Meaning a distance of 600 to 900 miles by road (not as the crow flies), or in other words roughly half the distance in the books.

Dragonstone is further further North than KL as well by quite a few miles. 

Edited to add. However the show should really give us something more to show distnace than some casual words by Cersei in season 1. many of the complaints over the years about "teleporting" could have been resolved if they had made clear that show Westeros was roughly half the size of book Westeros. All it would have taken is a scene of some military discussion over a map, detailing travel distances. 

 

 

Edited by JagLover

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2 minutes ago, ummester said:

It's possible that all human magic in the show exists because the NK exists, so him being a greenseer, that knew Dany was coming, makes sense.

Fair enough, but is Danny a greenseer as well? Because if he killed them or not - Danny was coming.

I say bullshit.

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10 minutes ago, Cron said:

Regarding distances on the show versus the books:

To my strong memory, we were told in Season One (and/or perhaps at other times in the show) that the distance between Winterfell and King's Landing is 1,000 miles, just like in the books.

Thus, I believe, the "scale" for the show was established, and anything different after that is just inconsistency.

See my post above. In the books it is 500 leagues as the crow flies.

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2 hours ago, daemonTheBlack said:

There were no on-screen indicators about how long the seven were trapped in the north. They could have been there for days for all we know. Time enough for all those actions to take place.

But in general, this episode was too contrived, I agree.

Presumably it has to be somewhere within the amount of time we'd expect a frozen lake to refreeze in subzero temperatures. 

Unless the Night King was stalling because he knew dragons were on the way. 

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22 minutes ago, JagLover said:

That has been stated on the show that is true. That is however less than the distance stated in the books by over 500 miles or so. Over because in the books it is 1,500 miles as the crow flies, not by road. So the Show Westeros IS considerable smaller.

Mmmm...I thought the distance between Winterfell and King's Landing was also said to be 1,000 miles in the books.

If someone could resolve this with a direct quote from the books, that would be great.

Having said that, it appears that we agree that in the show it is said to be 1,000 miles.

Quote

Furthermore a thousand miles sounds the sort of casual exaggeration you would use in conversation. They have been travelling for a month to get from KL to Winterfell (Cersei Season 1) in a heavily laden caravan that would no doubt have been pausing to hunt and greet local nobles. Realistically that is 30 x 20-30 miles a day. Meaning a distance of 600 to 900 miles by road (not as the crow flies), or in other words roughly half the distance in the books.

I'm sorry, but I'm not inclined to set aside a specific statement based on the assumption that it was exaggeration and replace it with fairly raw speculation about how many miles per day the caravan averaged over a month, factoring in things such as hunting and socializing with nobles.

As I understand it, the King's Road is in fact a road (and thus they can make relatively good time, no rough terrain, which is why roads are built in the first place).  And I have no reason to believe they didn't bring plenty of food with them (especially given their wealth) as opposed to hoping they could live off the land and go hunting while travelling, and I'm not just going to assume they wasted a bunch of time socializing along the way without any specific evidence that they did.

Conclusion, in my opinion:  It is easy for me to imagine that caravan averaging a solid 30 to 40 miles per day.  In fact, if they only travelled 8 to 10 hours per day, that is basically a casual walking pace of only about 5 miles per hour or less.   But they were on, and/or had, horses.

Quote

Dragonstone is further further North than KL as well by quite a few miles. 

 

Ah, yes, but Eastwatch is further north than Winterfell.  "By quite a few miles."

Take a look at a map of Westeros.  I believe the distances between (a) WF and KL, and (b) Eastwatch and Dragonstone, look very comparable.  If anything, in fact, I'd say the latter distance is greater.  (In fact, I've seen some articles already estimating that the latter distance is a LOT more.  I'm not using a ruler or anything, though, I'm just looking at maps and eying it up)

Edited by Cron

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7 minutes ago, darmody said:

Presumably it has to be somewhere within the amount of time we'd expect a frozen lake to refreeze in subzero temperatures. 

Unless the Night King was stalling because he knew dragons were on the way. 

My thoughts:

I'm already seeing articles on this subject that, I believe, are estimating the water could have frozen to about 6 inches thick within, perhaps, two days.

And while you are not the only one to speculate that perhaps the NK was stalling, waiting for Dany, note that the Army of the Dead did NOT attack when Dany arrived, they attacked BEFORE she arrived, when they realized the ice had frozen.  In fact, immediately after realizing the ice had frozen, it looked to me.

Edited by Cron

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

But then the child actors would be 3 years older by the end.

They can't just pretend the characters aren't aging even though the actors are—nobody can suspend disbelief well enough to take Isaac Hampstead Wright as a pubescent teen.

So instead, they've turned 3 years of book story into 7 years of show story. On top of aging everyone up 2 years at the start. That's already stretching things to the breaking point. Jon isn't a teenager in over his head like Robb before him, he's a man in the prime of his life. Dany can't pull off her "but a young girl" speech anymore. Arya is not a damaged young adolescent, she's a crazy young woman. Push things out another 2 or 3 years and it would get even worse.

Bran is really the only character for whom this is an issue. Two or three years wouldn't make things worse generally, because then the characters would have another two or three seasons of development. Why should they be little kids in over their heads anymore? (Jon will always "know nothing" no matter how old he gets, don't worry.) They can be adults in over their heads now, like Ned before them. 

The actors playing Jon and Dany are both 30. I noticed how young he looked in the Season One scene from the "previously on" segment this week, but that was then. Once you're in your 30s, a few years is hardly noticeable. 

Sansa and Arya are still young, but they're adults already. Their aging would be more noticeable, but not anything to put you out of the show. 

Bran's ageing has been very noticeable, especially after he disappeared for a season. But he's a raven or a tree or whatever, and barely human anymore anyway. Throw in a line of dialogue about his special powers accelerating his ageing process. Done. 

Edited by darmody

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