Jon and Daeneris

[ShadowKitteh]

1 hour ago, JonSansaBranArya said:

This times 10. I think it's bad because they are rushing it and Kit/Emilia lack genuine chemistry.  TPTB should have taken a little more time developing this relationship. 

So glad I fell the opposite. 

[3sm1r]

38 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Yeah, that's what I said above. I have no problem with a cliche if it's delivered in an intersting or captivating way in any regard.  This wasn't. And it was especially lame that it was always Davos or Jorah, who brought feeling to the Jon/Daenerys scenes. Davos made their first meeting funny, Jorah's return (and escape of death) delivered for the scene discussing Jon's escape of death... and their chemistry is basically established by Davos and Tyrion's saying that Jon checked out Daenerys's covered cleveage . Which he didn't. Or maybe he did? Off camera? 

Also, we've never seen them meeting in an informal context, which is where people usually get to familiarize. When he called her "Dany" it felt just weird, because it came suddenly out of nowhere while until that moment they had only addressed each other in a formal way. 

[iprayiam]

4 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I strongly disagree

Any reason for why you don't like them as a couple?

I posted on your other thread, but here:

• The scenes on Drangonstone called for two political leaders in a stubborn stalemate. The actors don't have the range to play cold and withholding AND delivery flirty subtext. So all we get as viewers is cold and withholding. and we have the be told about the  subtext by other (Tyrion, Davos). That is a sign of failure. Nobody should have to say "I see sparks" to the viewers. We should see it. We don't because the actors can't deliver subtextual flirtation.

 

• The temperaments generally aren't a very electric pairing. Stubborn withholding, angsty guy doesn't pair well onscreen with Stubborn, withholding, entitled girl. We see the same problem with Jamie and Cersei. Calm and passive guy doesn't pair well will icey, headstrong girl. These are electric pairings:
  • Jon+Ygritte: Fiery extrovert girl + angsty self-conflicted guy 
  • Jamie+ Brienne: amoral cocky guy knocked down a peg + girl with a strong morality and naive reality
  • Dany + Jorah: girl blossoming from nativity to independence  + wise mentor who's hit his own ceiling. (this is tragic chemistry and would break if it worked out) 
  • Ned + Caitlyn: honorable, devoted patriarch + strong, intelligent matriarch

Actor chemistry helped all those pairings, but the temperaments portrayed by acting+writing+characterization is the real reason it worked, which is why lesser actors (Kit and Emilia) had perfectly fine chemistry with other characters

[El Guapo]

12 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

I posted on your other thread, but here:

• The scenes on Drangonstone called for two political leaders in a stubborn stalemate. The actors don't have the range to play cold and withholding AND delivery flirty subtext. So all we get as viewers is cold and withholding. and we have the be told about the  subtext by other (Tyrion, Davos). That is a sign of failure. Nobody should have to say "I see sparks" to the viewers. We should see it. We don't because the actors can't deliver subtextual flirtation.

 

• The temperaments generally aren't a very electric pairing. Stubborn withholding, angsty guy doesn't pair well onscreen with Stubborn, withholding, entitled girl. We see the same problem with Jamie and Cersei. Calm and passive guy doesn't pair well will icey, headstrong girl. These are electric pairings:
  • Jon+Ygritte: Fiery extrovert girl + angsty self-conflicted guy 
  • Jamie+ Brienne: amoral cocky guy knocked down a peg + girl with a strong morality and naive reality
  • Dany + Jorah: girl blossoming from nativity to independence  + wise mentor who's hit his own ceiling. (this is tragic chemistry and would break if it worked out) 
  • Ned + Caitlyn: the traditional pairing

Actor chemistry helped all those pairings, but the temperaments portrayed by acting+writing+characterization is the real reason it worked, which is why lesser actors (Kit and Emilia) had perfectly fine chemistry with other characters

If you could not see the flirtation than your blind. I mean Dany was literally eyef***ing Jon as he got on the boat to leave.

[MinscS2]

Yes the bodylanguage and eye-acting of Daenerys and Jon (or rather, their actors) during their scenes together really says everything about how they regard each other. There's really no need for tender words.

There seems to be alot of people on this subforum who doesn't see this though (most likely because they don't actually want to see it), and then complain about the writing being poor, or how they regard the pairing as cliche instead.

Oh well, people are entitled to their own opinions. I'm just happy that *I* see how their relationship develops during this season.

[iprayiam]

9 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

If you could not see the flirtation than your blind. I mean Dany was literally eyef***ing Jon as he got on the boat to leave.

1. that is the scene where they hammered the "new love" home after unearned build up. That's the whole point of the complaint, that they went 0-100 because the plot demanded it.

2. Lusting isn't flirting. The mere fact that giving each other lusty looks is the defense against a lack of chemistry is the best evidence that there isn't any.

 

also, if you think eye***ing is flirting, I bet you're a real hit with the ladies.

[Deminelle]

20 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

...

• The scenes on Drangonstone called for two political leaders in a stubborn stalemate. The actors don't have the range to play cold and withholding AND delivery flirty subtext. So all we get as viewers is cold and withholding. and we have the be told about the  subtext by other (Tyrion, Davos). That is a sign of failure. Nobody should have to say "I see sparks" to the viewers. We should see it. We don't because the actors can't deliver subtextual flirtation.

...

I don't really see that they would add lines for Tyrion and Davos to cover Jon/Dany poor acting.

[Jordan La Cabra]

6 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

If you could not see the flirtation than your blind. I mean Dany was literally eyef***ing Jon as he got on the boat to leave.

People have pointed out that there is no chemistry between the two but I really don't know what they expect Jon and Daenerys to do.

Jon is no womaniser. If it weren't for Ygritte's moves, nothing would have appended between the two of them.

There are serious issues going on in Westeros, and besides from two or three conversations, everytime we have seen Jon and Daenerys they have been discussing matters with other characters in the room.

The one scene they were left truly alone, Daenerys had just lost a dragon and witnessed the WW and the army of the dead and Jon had just woken from a near death experience. I don't think that was the time for them to start 'flirting' either.

With this taken into account, the best we can get in terms of chemistry or flirting would be stolen glances or comments from other characters, and so far there have been plenty of both of those.

[El Guapo]

4 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

1. that is the scene where they hammered the "new love" home after unearned build up. That's the whole point of the complaint, that they went 0-100 because the plot demanded it.

2. Lusting isn't flirting. The mere fact that giving each other lusty looks is the defense against a lack of chemistry is the best evidence that there isn't any.

 

also, if you think eye***ing is flirting, I bet you're a real hit with the ladies.

You just said that there were no signs that they had any "sparks" for each other. I gave one example. There are more. The way that Jon looks at her when they are in the cave together. The way Dany looks when she finds out Jon wants to go on the suicide mission up North.  I agree with MinscS2 above that there are people that just don't want to see it mainly because they don't want the characters to hook up in the first place.

They have great chemistry together so I disagree with you there too.

[iprayiam]

35 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

These are electric pairings:

• Jon+Ygritte: Fiery extrovert girl + angsty self-conflicted guy 
• Jamie+ Brienne: amoral cocky guy knocked down a peg + girl with a strong morality and naive reality
• Dany + Jorah: girl blossoming from nativity to independence  + wise mentor who's hit his own ceiling. (this is tragic chemistry and would break if it worked out) 
• Ned + Caitlyn: honorable, devoted patriarch + strong, intelligent matriarch

 

Thinking more about my previous post, one of the reasons these temperament pairing work is that each half gains something from the the other

• Jon + Ygritte: a new perspective for Jon, someone to care about for Ygritte (escapism for both, which is why it broke when it met reality)
• Jamie + Brienne: inspiration for Jamie, a wake up call for Brienne (hope for both)
• Dany + Jorah: guidance for Dany, pride for Jorah (nothing for both, which is why they could never be together)
• Ned + Caitlyn: a purpose for Ned, a provider for Caitlyn (strength for both)

The problem with Jon and Dany is that they've both been turned into such Mary-Sues, that they have nothing lacking, so nothing to give each other. They have both been written into such preen and perfect writer's pets, that their relationship is boring. The only give and take that they have for each other is purely political.

[iprayiam]

4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

You just said that there were no signs that they had any "sparks" for each other. I gave one example. There are more. The way that Jon looks at her when they are in the cave together. The way Dany looks when she finds out Jon wants to go on the suicide mission up North.  I agree with MinscS2 above that there are people that just don't want to see it mainly because they don't want the characters to hook up in the first place.

They have great chemistry together so I disagree with you there too.

looks, looks, looks. Chemistry is more than looks. It's interactions. hence the word chemistry.

[MinscS2]

The problem with Jon and Dany is that they've both been turned into such Mary-Sues

.
When someone pulls the Mary-Sue card on Jon or (more commonly) Daenerys, you know that they just don't like the characters, and that nothing good will come from discussing it further.

[3sm1r]

10 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

1. that is the scene where they hammered the "new love" home after unearned build up. That's the whole point of the complaint, that they went 0-100 because the plot demanded it.

2. Lusting isn't flirting. The mere fact that giving each other lusty looks is the defense against a lack of chemistry is the best evidence that there isn't any.

 

also, if you think eye***ing is flirting, I bet you're a real hit with the ladies.

This is an epic comment.

6 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

People have pointed out that there is no chemistry between the two but I really don't know what they expect Jon and Daenerys to do.

Jon is no womaniser. If it weren't for Ygritte's moves, nothing would have appended between the two of them.

There are serious issues going on in Westeros, and besides from two or three conversations, everytime we have seen Jon and Daenerys they have been discussing matters with other characters in the room.

The one scene they were left truly alone, Daenerys had just lost a dragon and witnessed the WW and the army of the dead and Jon had just woken from a near death experience. I don't think that was the time for them to start 'flirting' either.

With this taken into account, the best we can get in terms of chemistry or flirting would be stolen glances or comments from other characters, and so far there have been plenty of both of those.

The problem is that even though nothing has been established yet, for the reasons you have just mentioned, they have already arrived at the point in which they touch each other's hands. So the boat scene, where they already seems to have a certain level of intimacy, has not been prepared by the previous scenes. 

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

The problem is that even though nothing has been established yet, for the reasons you have just mentioned, they have already arrived at the point in which they touch each other's hands. So the boat scene, where they already seems to have a certain level of intimacy, has not been prepared by the previous scenes. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Jon took her hand when he was apologising for what happened to Viserion?

In my eyes, the hand touching in that scene wasn't even a moment I considered as flirting, because given what they were talking about, flirting would have been wrong.

I thought it was just the moment they finally came together and decided to literally go hand in hand and defeat the WW and the army of the dead.

[iprayiam]

16 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

When someone pulls the Mary-Sue card on Jon or (more commonly) Daenerys, you know that they just don't like the characters, and that nothing good will come from discussing it further.

Fair enough, but if you put it in the context of the rest of my comment, you would understand exactly what I meant and be able to engage with it. My point is that in opposition to the other examples I gave, neither Jon or Dany is really lacking anything or are emotionally incomplete in a way in which one would enhance the other.

They're both too similar and capable: They're both young, capable, morally-minded, empathetic, confident military commanders and rulers. In fact, both spend the exact same time frame on their journey from zero to hero. I'm not saying two such people wouldn't get together in real life. But that these characterizations don't have onscreen chemistry. Neither is really a romantic foil of each other. They've been written very much into boy and girl versions of the same character.

[Illiterati]

I'm a fan of both characters, but I honestly don't give a whit  over their "budding romance" or if they ever (or never) bump uglies.  To me it's a distraction from the story.

[El Guapo]

15 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

looks, looks, looks. Chemistry is more than looks. It's interactions. hence the word chemistry.

I see it with their interactions as well especially with the boat scene.

[WeKnowNothing]

On 21 August 2017 at 10:02 PM, Theon_is_Azor said:

No she isn't. She has a beating heart. She was born and has not died. Jon does not have a beating heart. 

Jon died but is still able to bleed, breath, sleep, eat, etc. If he didn't have a beating heart, he wouldn't be able to do none of the listed above. So seeing as he can do everything else just like before his death, his fertility must be the same to. Plus, they've mentioned Jon's future potential children...which is a clear foreshadowing he'll be having children of his own in the future, and with Dany of course.

[Illiterati]

Yep, the deep breath he drew upon his resurrection was life, not simple reanimation of a wight.

[MinscS2]

32 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

Fair enough, but if you put it in the context of the rest of my comment, you would understand exactly what I meant and be able to engage with it. My point is that in opposition to the other examples I gave, neither Jon or Dany is really lacking anything or are emotionally incomplete in a way in which one would enhance the other.

They're both too similar and capable: They're both young, capable, morally-minded, empathetic, confident military commanders and rulers. In fact, both spend the exact same time frame on their journey from zero to hero. I'm not saying two such people wouldn't get together in real life. But that these characterizations don't have onscreen chemistry. Neither is really a romantic foil of each other. They've been written very much into boy and girl versions of the same character.

You are right that too many similarities between two people can act as an obstacle when it comes to developing romantic feelings. Opposites attract and all that.

However, in the case of Jon and Daenerys, it is the similarities between them that causes them to fall for each other. They see a lot of qualities and opinions in each other that they like and share, which in addition to the physical attraction they have towards each other, sparks their romantic feelings for each other.