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Jon and Daeneris


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1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

People have pointed out that there is no chemistry between the two but I really don't know what they expect Jon and Daenerys to do.

For me, in most of their scenes together where I think they're supposed to be getting closer, it feels kind of like two buddies pretending to be romantically attracted. Which, admittedly, may be more as much in the scripts (him calling her "Dany") than in the actors.

And, at any rate, as I said earlier, I don't think there's anything "forced" or "implausible" about the plot. I can understand why they're drawn together, and I can where their character arcs are taking them, and I don't have a problem with any of it (and I don't even really understand the people who do have a problem with it). This isn't like the first Star Wars prequel where I'm trying to figure out whether I'm supposed to believe this teenaged girl is attracted to a 10-year-old boy or what the hell is going on; here, I know what I'm supposed to believe and I have no problem believing it. I just wish the actors were doing a better job showing what we know is happening between their characters.

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1 hour ago, 3sm1r said:

Also, we've never seen them meeting in an informal context, which is where people usually get to familiarize. When he called her "Dany" it felt just weird, because it came suddenly out of nowhere while until that moment they had only addressed each other in a formal way. 

Yes, god, that was the cringiest thing in the entire series. Or maybe it's a tie with "Sansa you were beautiful on your wedding night" 

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37 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

You are right that too many similarities between two people can act as an obstacle when it comes to developing romantic feelings. Opposites attract and all that.

However, in the case of Jon and Daenerys, it is the similarities between them that causes them to fall for each other. They see a lot of qualities and opinions in each other that they like and share, which in addition to the physical attraction they have towards each other, sparks their romantic feelings for each other.
 

Which is why I don't think their pairing is implausbile in general. It's very believable to me that two such people in real life would get together. But it's not very dramatic, which imho makes boring TV.

(In fact, good TV pairings would often make bad real life pairings. For example, Manic Pixie Dream Girl +Shy Self-Doubting Guy, is indie movie gold, but probably would turn into suspicion, cheating, and divorce in real life more often than not.)

In addition to the dull temperament pairing, the actors aren't selling it. As others have said, Plotwise, the characters getting together is not what is unbelievable. It's Kit and Emilia's onscreen chemistry that I don't buy. And the people who think they see it are just filling in the gaps, because they're sold on the plot aspect of it. 

It's almost like an arranged marriage by the viewers. Arranged marriages usually do work out precisely because third party observers can draw pragmatic conclusions about what is good for the parties involved. But four parents getting together and deciding their children should marry is not the same thing as there being sparks and chemistry flying between the two kids. In fact, it's wholly unrelated

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When he called her "Dany" it felt just weird, because it came suddenly out of nowhere while until that moment they had only addressed each other in a formal way. 


Yeah even I, the big Jonerys-shipper that I am, can't really wrap my head around that line of dialogue.

I think that the intention was to partly to make the connection to Dany's family. Viserys was the last one who called her that, her brother. Now her nephew did the same.
It was partly a way to start off the conversation that would lead to "How about my queen", which, while abit cringey, actually works for me.
And partly I think it was some form of fanservice. The silent majority have no issue with her calling her Dany, in fact, I think most people wouldn't even react.

Strange choice from the writers, but for the vast majority of the viewers, it works.
 

Quote

But it's not very dramatic, which imho makes boring TV. In addition to that, the actors aren't selling it. As others have said, Plotwise, the characters getting together is not what is unbelievable.

It's Kit and Emilia's onscreen chemistry that I don't buy. 



On this, we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)
I've found all the interactions between Jon and Dany very enjoyable to watch.

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It's a dumb plot and I can't wait for it to be over. I'm sad that it'll probably mean dany's death.

I probably like romance more than most around here, but this is just bad.

On that note, are we thinking Jon will betray her as one of her treasons? That might actually be somewhat interesting.

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13 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Yes, god, that was the cringiest thing in the entire series. Or maybe it's a tie with "Sansa you were beautiful on your wedding night" 

At least that one was devised to be creepy. 

4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:


Yeah even I, the big Jonerys-shipper that I am, can't really wrap my head around that line of dialogue.

I think that the intention was to partly to make the connection to Dany's family. Viserys was the last one who called her that, her brother. Now her nephew did the same.
It was partly a way to start off the conversation that would lead to "How about my queen", which, while abit cringey, actually works for me.
And partly I think it was some form of fanservice. The silent majority have no issue with her calling her Dany, in fact, I think most people wouldn't even react.

Strange choice from the writers, but for the vast majority of the viewers, it works.
 

I am glad for the vast majority. I'm not a hater, I just don't feel that way. 

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1 minute ago, greensleeves said:

On that note, are we thinking Jon will betray her as one of her treasons? That might actually be somewhat interesting.

Nah, not a chance in hell. He's probably the last person who would betray her at this stage, possibly after Jorah.

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2 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Nah, not a chance in hell. He's probably the last person who would betray her at this stage, possibly after Jorah.

You have to be close to someone to betray them. I think it's actually pretty likely. When it comes down to it I don't think Jon's going to be all in for Dany's political goals.

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18 minutes ago, falcotron said:

For me, in most of their scenes together where I think they're supposed to be getting closer, it feels kind of like two buddies pretending to be romantically attracted. Which, admittedly, may be more as much in the scripts (him calling her "Dany") than in the actors.

And, at any rate, as I said earlier, I don't think there's anything "forced" or "implausible" about the plot. I can understand why they're drawn together, and I can where their character arcs are taking them, and I don't have a problem with any of it (and I don't even really understand the people who do have a problem with it). This isn't like the first Star Wars prequel where I'm trying to figure out whether I'm supposed to believe this teenaged girl is attracted to a 10-year-old boy or what the hell is going on; here, I know what I'm supposed to believe and I have no problem believing it. I just wish the actors were doing a better job showing what we know is happening between their characters.

I really believe the fault lies in the writing. The 'Dany' comment was one of the most contrived lines in the show's history. At that moment, it took me completely out of the scene. What are the chances that Jon would suddenly call her a name that only her brother ever called her? Never mind the fact it is highly unlikely Jon would be making up nicknames for a Queen he hasn't known very long. It was just another blatant hint at Jon's Targaryen link to her, which they've been doing far too much this season. 

It's got to the point I just want Jon and Daenerys to know he is a Targaryen so we can stop with the not-so-subtle foreshadowing and actually focus on their relationship together a bit more.

I actually think that Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke are doing a good job with the material they are working from. If you muted the conversations and watched their scenes together based on looks, it would probably increase the signs of chemistry between the two.

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8 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

What are her treasons? I must have missed that. A prophesy?

A prophecy from the books:

 . . three heads has the dragon . . . 
. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . 
. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . 
. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

 

The first of each is thought to have already occured (fire to give life to her dragons, silver horse at her wedding to Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur betrayed her). 

Edit: If the books follow the show, her setting fire to the dothraki seems a good bet for the fire for death. Also drogon is presumably the mount to dread.

 

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3 hours ago, iprayiam said:

1. that is the scene where they hammered the "new love" home after unearned build up. That's the whole point of the complaint, that they went 0-100 because the plot demanded it.

2. Lusting isn't flirting. The mere fact that giving each other lusty looks is the defense against a lack of chemistry is the best evidence that there isn't any.

 

also, if you think eye***ing is flirting, I bet you're a real hit with the ladies.

This! Nobody is against the relationship, it's the mega watt speed it's moving at.  Not to mention they have to TELL us, they are attracted to each other.

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:
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When he called her "Dany" it felt just weird, because it came suddenly out of nowhere while until that moment they had only addressed each other in a formal way. 

 

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Yeah even I, the big Jonerys-shipper that I am, can't really wrap my head around that line of dialogue

In my opinion, not weirder than Jorah calling Jon "Jon", as if they were best buddies after, what? a walk and 1 minute of a face to face chat? 

Admittedly one can think that fighting together would create a strong bond between people in a very short time. It's  logic that when 2 people face extreme adverse conditions together, they tend to drop meaningless formalities.  
And in that sense, that's what happened to Jon and Dany. Finally, they both came, if not  to the complete realisation of who  and what the other is, at least  of what the other is NOT.  Dany came to the awareness, in the most possible painful way, that this man whom she feels sexually atracted to is not just an annoying rebel who wants to take half of the kingdom from her and distract her from her goal with some monster tale nonsense.  And he came to the realization that this beautiful girl is not just an annoying entitled brat, who wants something she feels is her "birthright" but does not deserve.  She took a high personal risk to save the day, and she lost something very valuable to her in doing so. 
It's all there for us to see, and the actors did a pretty good job. The shock and sort of incredulity in Dany's face when she saw his wounds, the shock of losing Viserion, of seeing that everything this man has said was the absolute truth... as for Jon, the pain and repentance in his eyes and voice when he wakes up. 
People don't get through the things they got, and then  keep formality in a private environment, that would have been much weirder. He could have called her "Danaerys" instead of Dany, but it's not that much of a difference.

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28 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

Admittedly one can think that fighting together would create a strong bond between people in a very short time. It's  logic that when 2 people face extreme adverse conditions together, they tend to drop meaningless formalities.  
And in that sense, that's what happened to Jon and Dany. Finally, they both came, if not  to the complete realisation of who  and what the other is, at least  of what the other is NOT.  Dany came to the awareness, in the most possible painful way, that this man whom she feels sexually atracted to is not just an annoying rebel who wants to take half of the kingdom from her and distract her from her goal with some monster tale nonsense.  And he came to the realization that this beautiful girl is not just an annoying entitled brat, who wants something she feels is her "birthright" but does not deserve.  She took a high personal risk to save the day, and she lost something very valuable to her in doing so. 
It's all there for us to see, and the actors did a pretty good job. The shock and sort of incredulity in Dany's face when she saw his wounds, the shock of losing Viserion, of seeing that everything this man has said was the absolute truth... as for Jon, the pain and repentance in his eyes and voice when he wakes up. 
People don't get through the things they got, and then  keep formality in a private environment, that would have been much weirder. He could have called her "Danaerys" instead of Dany, but it's not that much of a difference.

Ok, I recognize that it's kind of subjective. 

But all the great epiphany you are talking about is something that we didn't see on screen. That's the main problem. Yes, we can rationalize and think about what they had to suffer together and arrive at the conclusion that maybe it was fine for them to bypass the formalities and even use nicknames. It's not supposed to be like that. I should not need to rationalize in order to understand the level of their relationship. In a good love story it should just sound natural. 


A part from that, I have few other comments. 
You talk about shock, incredulity, pain: they're all emotions that we can feel without the need of other people. I did see the shock in Daenerys' face (regardless of my personal opinion on her acting skills, which is not relevant in this discussion), what I did not see is an emotional connection between the two characters. 

Of course everybody would love to be with Jon or Daenerys: they're brave and beautiful and they have both lived unbelievable adventures. What Daenerys sees in Jon is what everybody else would see in him. And viceversa. They like each other because they're both perfect. There is nothing personal, there is nothing intimate. I don't find it interesting. 

Also, it feels forced, and the reason is that it is. People were calling for it since season 2. It was an obvious choice, and precisely because it's obvious I think it should have been avoided. 

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I'm not sure I get exactly what you're trying to say. Something being "forced" and "no natural" is the opposite of being the "obvious choice". How can it be both the obvious choice and forced?

1 hour ago, 3sm1r said:

But all the great epiphany you are talking about is something that we didn't see on screen. That's the main problem. Yes, we can rationalize and think about what they had to suffer together and arrive at the conclusion that maybe it was fine for them to bypass the formalities and even use nicknames. It's not supposed to be like that. I should not need to rationalize in order to understand the level of their relationship. In a good love story it should just sound natural. 

 

I saw it, that's my whole point. :D

1 hour ago, 3sm1r said:

Of course everybody would love to be with Jon or Daenerys: they're brave and beautiful and they have both lived unbelievable adventures. What Daenerys sees in Jon is what everybody else would see in him. And viceversa. They like each other because they're both perfect. There is nothing personal, there is nothing intimate. I don't find it interesting

I think they are both far from perfect. He has too much of a hero complex that makes him do stupid things, she has too much of a royal complex that makes her do ruthless and completely unnecessary things. Both have made serious mistakes. If they were both perfect, why half of Jon's fans hate Dany, and half of Dany's fans hate Jon?

2 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

People were calling for it since season 2. It was an obvious choice, and precisely because it's obvious I think it should have been avoided. 

 

2 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

I don't find it interesting. 

This I can understand. You think that for dramatic purposes, the obvious thing should be avoided, because it is not interesting for you to watch  such a no-brainer outcome. 

But this is  obvious because it was slowly built up since the beginning. It is as obvious as the fact that the Night King will break through the Wall. Would it be better that, after all these 76 episodes and years of setting up, the Night King changes his mind and decides that he does not want to go south after all? That would certainly be a shock for the viewers, but  also  an incredible cheat-the-audience thing to do, and a token of very bad writting.
May be I'm in the minority here, but I'll gladly welcome some obviousness, given that it's delivered in a classy way... 
May be it's because I'm not the usual fan of this show, I  love too much the classic fantasy for it, and this is not classic fantasy at all, so many of the things this series of books/show is praised for, I don't particularly like them, and I managed to somehow enjoy the books/show despite them... IMHO, some fans of this show are too fond of suffering and tragedy, but to each his own

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2 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

Of course everybody would love to be with Jon or Daenerys: they're brave and beautiful and they have both lived unbelievable adventures. What Daenerys sees in Jon is what everybody else would see in him. And viceversa. They like each other because they're both perfect. There is nothing personal, there is nothing intimate. I don't find it interesting. 

Exactly. This is what I've been saying. The characters are too perfect in too many of the same ways that they offer nothing unique or personal to each other's emotional development. 

The only situation where this really works dramatically is when there are circumstances keeping them apart. Think Princess Buttercup and Wesley.

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