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Arya Stark


Gaz0680

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23 minutes ago, falcotron said:

No, that's not even remotely what I said.

Arya lives in a crapsack world where terrible things happen to her that aren't her fault, because people don't live by modern morality. The only time she wasn't punished for doing nothing morally wrong, her family was punished for her doing nothing morally wrong, which is just as bad.

Her life has been hell, and acting as if the world doesn't work that way is naive.

Naivete is not immorality, and it's not morality either, it's an almost completely orthogonal issue.

And morality is not the only thing that should drive your actions. You need to be practical as well. When you live in an immoral world, the challenge is to find a way to balance things—to be able to live in that world without being immoral yourself. That's part of what show!Tyrion's story is about, and it's part of what everyone has to learn to become an adult (because even our society isn't exactly wholly moral either, even if it's not nearly as bad as Westeros).

Actually, I think in some ways, our modern western society is worse and more immoral than Westeros, but thats another issue entirely and one Ill not debate here.

I agree that morality should ideally not be the only thing that drives a person's actions (nor should being practical), but not everything has the same importance for every person. Depends on the individual's values, which are also influenced by their environment and upbringing.

For example, one person may value practicality absolutely, as in that is all that matters and morality doesn't factor. They will do what is practical regardless of the situation. (Tywin was somewhat like that).

Others may value their morality (or what they see as morality) and can be stubbornly unwilling to compromise those values even a little for the sake of practicality (Ned is an example of this. His honor and duty WAS his morality).

I suppose one of the reasons I view Arya as having a more mature view of right and wrong than most others in Westeros is because she doesn't just serve herself, blindly follow any 'code' or go with what the current society dictates. She assesses situations and comes to her own conclusions on what is the right or wrong action to do.

Arya is aware of the way Westeros society operates and the harsh realities of it, and she is also aware of her father's teachings and what she has learned from other sources (Syrio, the Hound, etc), but she doesn't just accept them. Arya draws her own conclusions, as any adult should. Tyrion is a lot like that too, which is one of the reasons I respect him so much. He takes things a step further and looks at the bigger picture more than Arya does.

I still believe Tyrion would have dealt with many situations virtually the same as Arya did had he been in her place (Joffrey/Mycah incident, the Hound robbing the farmer, etc).

 

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17 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Actually, I think in some ways, our modern western society is worse and more immoral than Westeros, but thats another issue entirely and one Ill not debate here.

I agree that morality should ideally not be the only thing that drives a person's actions (nor should being practical), but not everything has the same importance for every person. Depends on the individual's values, which are also influenced by their environment and upbringing.

For example, one person may value practicality absolutely, as in that is all that matters and morality doesn't factor. They will do what is practical regardless of the situation. (Tywin was somewhat like that).

Others may value their morality (or what they see as morality) and can be stubbornly unwilling to compromise those values even a little for the sake of practicality (Ned is an example of this. His honor and duty WAS his morality).

I suppose one of the reasons I view Arya as having a more mature view of right and wrong than most others in Westeros is because she doesn't just serve herself, blindly follow any 'code' or go with what the current society dictates. She assesses situations and comes to her own conclusions on what is the right or wrong action to do.

Arya is aware of the way Westeros society operates and the harsh realities of it, and she is also aware of her father's teachings and what she has learned from other sources (Syrio, the Hound, etc), but she doesn't just accept them. Arya draws her own conclusions, as any adult should. Tyrion is a lot like that too, which is one of the reasons I respect him so much. He takes things a step further and looks at the bigger picture more than Arya does.

I still believe Tyrion would have dealt with many situations virtually the same as Arya did had he been in her place (Joffrey/Mycah incident, the Hound robbing the farmer, etc).

 

Also, we have to remember that Arya saw Littlefinger with Tywin at Harrenhal. And that is the reason why she is so distrustful of Sansa at the moment, especially how Sansa seems to rely on him to keep the North in power. I mean, I would be distrustful of Littelfinger, too. And anyone who seems to associate with him in the same manner Sansa does. Perhaps people have forgotten about this fact?

There are other reasons why she is so hostile to Sansa too. The main being her memories of the younger Sansa, and how she defended Joffrey when Myca was attacked and later murdered. That was a betrayal. She then married into the Lannister House, escaped, then chose to marry into the Bolton House, an enemy of the Starks who played a part in the Red Wedding, the same wedding Arya almost witnessed firsthand. Sure, Sansa did suffer from that decision, but she still made the conscious choice - trusting Littlefinger backfired. But she trusted him anyway.

And people still have the nerve to write that Arya is acting over the top?? Come now. She is trying to protect Jon Snow, House Stark, and the North from a potential threat. I'm sure Bran will intervene in next episode before something unfortunate happens, set things right, and create peace among the sisters. However, I doubt they'll ever be the traditional loving siblings. Not like her relationship with Jon, which is one of the strongest in the novels.

Am I wrong in my assessment?

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1 hour ago, Gaz0680 said:

I suppose one of the reasons I view Arya as having a more mature view of right and wrong than most others in Westeros is because she doesn't just serve herself, blindly follow any 'code' or go with what the current society dictates. She assesses situations and comes to her own conclusions on what is the right or wrong action to do.

This part I definitely agree with. And I'd go farther.

The idea of a "code", in historical/faux-historical-fantasy fiction and its fandom, is usually not so much a religious or humanist code of ethics, as a military-style code of honor.* While there are good things to say about honor, it's not at all the same thing as morality. (Hi, Stannis.)

And I think GRRM wants to challenge that. So the Hound, having recognized that the code of honor he's expected to follow is stupid, doesn't figure out that morality isn't the same thing until after his "death". And Jaime  spends years struggling with how he can be good when he has all these conflicting oaths, as if those oaths were the very definition of good, and can only be redeemed almost behind his own back because he's looking in the wrong direction.

Arya seems to realize right from the start that doing the right thing and following the rules aren't always that closely connected. She's asking the right moral questions, even as a child, but she doesn't always know the answers, and nobody she turns to can give them to her. And that's part of what makes her both a sympathetic character, and an interesting one to follow.

ETA: Book!Tyrion is really interesting in this context; show!Tyrion is basically just an idealized self-actualized Arya, which is still also interesting but not the same thing. But that's probably getting too far off topic.

---

* There's a great essay by, I think, Kim Newman connecting this to two stages, first a reaction to WWII and the Nuremberg trials, and second to the end of the 60s. But I think there's also the simpler fact that many writers were brought up with an unexamined belief that Christianity = morality, and haven't figured out how to make that work in a world with different gods. (Except the ones who went the Tolkien/Lewis route, which has other problems.)

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6 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Why are people assuming that the only plausible scenario is one where Arya and Sansa become BFF and walk hand-in-hand, giggling at random shit? There is a reason why Arya is threatening Sansa, and why Sansa is afraid in return. This will be resolved in the next episode, and I guess people will go "oh, that's why she was behaving like that," etc. So chill.

Arya Stark and Jon Snow are my favorite characters in the books and show, and this did not feel out of character for me. Not when you've read the Mercy chapter from Winds of Winter, and understand how her trauma has caused her to become emotionless, or able to control her emotions in great detail. So I don't understand how people are freaking out about this. I do believe the writers used her characterisation from that Winds of Winter chapter to inform them on how to write her character this season.

Arya still remembers the Sansa from her childhood, the bitchy want-it-all, and that she still lingers around Littlefinger is suspect enough for Arya to suspect her in return. Remember that Arya saw Littlefinger with Tywin when she was a cupbearer, so she's suspicious. And she can read faces, so I'm assuming she was correct in knowing that Sansa has aspirations for power, even if Sansa does not want to feel that hunger for power.

So Arya is conflicted about the situation, defensive of Jon Snow, and aggressive towards Sansa to keep her in check so that she does not act on the feelings she's kept buried deep. 

Agreed

I think you need to bear in mind that the Sansa Arya remembers is the one from the first season. Who insulted her, wouldn't stick up for her when a boys life was at stake, and betrayed her family out of naivety (though cant remember if that made it on to the show).

By the end of the next episode I guess this plotline will be resolved, but it doesn't surprise me there is some genuine animosity. 

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11 hours ago, Lord Okra said:

Well, I agree with Arya's character has become far less likable and her Bravos storyline was pretty dull compared to her season with the Hound BUT you can't just redo in the middle of a story by abandoning the entire previous storyline.

I don't like the direction they took Arya's character either but that doesn't make it bad writing.  Just because I'd rather have a nice Arya is doesn't mean dark Arya is bad writing.  It is just not the direction I really wanted to see her go.

Anyway, it isn't terrible writing to pick up where you left off.  That's they way stories are supposed to go...

I get what you're saying. 

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One thing that I find myself keep getting angry about:


The results of Arya's training with the FM. It comes to to me, at least, as she's almost able to read minds; someone's thoughts, desires, fears, etc. etc.

I was really looking forward to the cold-reading aspect that comes with the FM. How to tell lies due to different facial ticks, voice changes, tells, etc. like they mentioned in the book. And it almost looked like they were going to do it with the whole Arya training montage back in Season 6.

But no. Instead it basically has Arya saying that Sansa is thinking blank and blank and wants blank and blank etc. without even a hint of cold reading.

I love cold reading myself and it's so cool to see it implimented in a book or a show. It really bums me that they seem to have the FM be more magic murder Jedi with attitudes than the calculated devout warrior-priests.

I feel like Arya's character this season would've come off so different (and better) had that been implemented versus what we have now.

 

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