Cat the Most selfish Women in all the seven Kingdoms

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, devilish said:

What GRRM brilliantly portray is the clear flaw in medieval education. Some people who clearly aren't cut for ruling ends up in very high roles mainly because they have a penis. Others take the honourable way to their early grave. People with mental problems end up ruling instead of thrown in a mental hospital, talent like Olena and Margaery Tyrell have to fight not to go in the shadows which is a shame considering that they are among the few with brains, children are massacred for their mistakes, dynasties fall because brilliant daddy couldnt get past that his most brilliant kid is an imp, hordes of living are butchered for some iron seat while the dead are growing strong in numbers. Its an imperfect world which is being lead into ruin. However that's the world GOT is in and we only can judge people from that point of view.

There's a valid and reasonable excuse behind the flaws of most characters in GOT. Gregor Clegane was a child soldier with mental issues (headaches etc) who was shaped to be a weapon of destruction by his master. Cersei was a frustrated spoiled girl who lost the only loving parent she had at quite young age and ended up being used as a pawn by her distant father. She had a loveless childhood (when Joanna died) and a loveless marriage. The only character who can say to be pure evil is Euron Greyjoy.

Having said that, there are a number of mistakes that Cat did which cant be justified. Her 'Family, Duty, Honour' education lead her to kidnap the imp, dragging two regions into war against one of the most powerful regions in Westeros. It also persuaded Robb to commit to a marriage that wasn't good for him and defend a land that Robb simply lacked the men to defend. Lets face it, after Ned's death, Robb could have easily exchanged Jamie for Ned's bones + Sansa and Arya and return home. He was a Stark and whatever happened South to Moat Cailin was the least of his concerns. Yet, he had to remain South of the border to defend Uncle incompetent and his useless region. Meanwhile her lack of education in politics lead her to naively release Jamie which was the only leverage that Robb had to keep the Northern army safe. Those are huge mistakes that cost the North dear.

I don't blame Cat for her mistakes as much as I don't blame Cersei for hers. Ned should have made sure to keep an experienced man behind with the authority and the brains to guide his boy in case something happened to him. Same can be said about Hoster who left behind an utter mess (an incompetent son, a diplomatic mess with one of his strongest bannermen etc) and Tywin (Tyrion had brains but he wasn't the right man for the job (Cersei hated him) + by the time he reached KL it was too late, Ned was killed and Jamie was captured)

 

 

 

 

 

Which was the advice that Catelyn gave him.  She wanted peace.  Robb and his Bannermen proclaimed the independence of the North.

The deal that she brokered with Walder Frey was a good one, in the circumstances.  In return for Robb marrying his daughter, she got 4,000 soldiers, plus passage across the Trident.  The alternatives were a bloody siege of the Twins, or retreat Northwards. Robb messed that up all on his own.

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, L’Age d’or said:

Ah, look, another women issues and gender inequality talking point brought up to sabotage the discussion.  

Of course thread is about women issues and gender inequality, majority of those who support OP's statement think Cat's the worst person in the world for not welcoming Jon with open arms. They're demanding this from her simply because she's a woman whose supposed to be naturally maternal regardless of whose child it is, this isn't about "sabotaging the discussion", which is quite frankly a silly thing to say, it's about highlighting the double standards which dominate Cat hate.

1 hour ago, L’Age d’or said:

if Cat had brought home a bastard, she'd be beheaded or thrown into a dungeon at best for the rest of her life. 

Exactly! A fan fave such as Ned would have never tolerated his wife's bastard but the main criticism against Cat is that she doesn't accept her husband's, that's what I mean when I say double standards in this fandom. 

[L’Age d’or]

24 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Of course thread is about women issues and gender inequality, majority of those who support OP's statement think Cat's the worst person in the world for not welcoming Jon with open arms. They're demanding this from her simply because she's a woman whose supposed to be naturally maternal regardless of whose child it is, this isn't about "sabotaging the discussion", which is quite frankly a silly thing to say, it's about highlighting the double standards which dominate Cat hate.

Exactly! A fan fave such as Ned would have never tolerated his wife's bastard but the main criticism against Cat is that she doesn't accept her husband's, that's what I mean when I say double standards in this fandom. 

If people are asking Cat to treat Jon as her own, they are delusional; her dislike of Jon is well founded and anybody with a bit of common sense would know that. On the other hand, giving Cat immunity to criticism because she was a grieving mother is the other side of the same coin i.e. blind fanaticism. 

Going back to the issue at hand, Catelyn being unbearable sometimes was due to the fact that she was impulsive, inconsiderate and self-righteous. She had Bran, Rickon and Robb to think of, but all she could be bothered with was Sansa and Arya; arresting Tyrion and taking him to the Vale was another blunder. Come to think of it, she forced Ned to accept Robert's offer to become hand after Ned explicitly told her that he was going to refuse him. All those are valid reasons to hold her accountable.  

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, L’Age d’or said:

If people are asking Cat to treat Jon as her own, they are delusional; her dislike of Jon is well founded and anybody with a bit of common sense would know that. On the other hand, giving Cat immunity to criticism because she was a grieving mother is the other side of the same coin i.e. blind fanaticism. 

Going back to the issue at hand, Catelyn being unbearable sometimes was due to the fact that she was impulsive, inconsiderate and self-righteous. She had Bran, Rickon and Robb to think of, but all she could be bothered with was Sansa and Arya; arresting Tyrion and taking him to the Vale was another blunder. Come to think of it, she forced Ned to accept Robert's offer to become hand after Ned explicitly told her that he was going to refuse him. All those are valid reasons to hold her accountable.  

Ned was able to take decisions for himself.

[the trees have eyes]

On 23/08/2017 at 9:05 AM, Pikachu101 said:

Oh goodie another "Cat is the worst person in the series!!!" threads 

Selfish is when you put your needs above others, Cat has never done this 

Well, it's been a while.  I honestly feel people are reading different books when I hear some of the reasoning behind the accusations.

On 23/08/2017 at 9:45 AM, devilish said:

Both love their children and both are cursed with 1) little intelligence + 'they know best' mentality which makes them extremely dangerous. I don't like Cersei (who does?). There again may I remind you that 2) Cersei wasn't the one who kidnapped a Stark in total disregard that her husband is literally surrounded by them. The lioness didn't commit treason against her son by 3) releasing his no 1 hostage on some stupid promise made by a Lannister whom, few months before, she wanted to execute.

There's a reason why 4) Ned never told her anything about Jon's origins. The girl is dumb and would throw anyone under the bridge if she needs to.

5) LF can be accused of many things but he ain't stupid let alone suicidal. He wouldn't have gone so far if Cat didn't showed any interest to him. 

Seriously? Hoster couldn't even keep his own house in order let alone having the upper hand on Rickard. Brynden did what he wanted and got away with it, the Freys did what they wanted and got away with it, LF had sex with his daughter under his own roof and got away with it. The moment a decent general walked in the Riverlands with an army everything went tits up and some wolf pup had to come to the rescue. The Tully's are weak LPs, rulers of a weak and divided land. Hoster's only strategy for that is to whore his daughters in exchange of much needed protection.

Jon is of no threat to her children. He's a well educated bastard who love his half brothers and half sisters intensely and he knows his place. 6) Cat hates him because he's a clear testament that Ned might have prefered another woman to her and therefore she's not that special at all. Same with Cersei when Bob whispered Lyanna in her ear. Ulimately women in the medieval mindset were nothing but breeding cows. That's a role with giant egos like Cat and Cersei couldn't accept.

May I remind you that 7) Jon wasn't the one who caused the amnety between the Lannisters and the Starks by kidnapping Tyrion. Jon wasn't the one who released Jamie either. The former caused Ned's injury, 8) the latter fast-tracked the Karstark's treason. What Jon did was to break his vows to try to rescue Arya. That caused his death. So really, who loves the Starks the most?

What made Cersei powerful was Robert's absence in everything that matters. Cat didn't took that route up because Ned kept her on a short leach in Winterfell. 9) The moment Ned moved South, Cat went bonkers by kidnapping Tyrion on the most ridiculous of accusations and by taking him to the Vale to have him executed. Lysa had nothing to do with Tyrion's 'crimes' (crime wasn't done at the Vale, Tyrion wasn't captured at the Vale and the heir to CR should be judged by a king) and yet Cat took matters in her own hands. 

I'll start by saying I think I disagree with everything you state. 

1) Ned is quite happy to leave Catelyn in charge at Winterfell as he has confidence in her abilities, in marked contrast to all of Tywin, Kevan, Tyrion and Jaime who see what an unstable disaster Cersei is (and they knew in advance how capricious, short-sighted and cruel she would be in wielding power) and do everything they can to get power out of her hands.  Ned could easily have appointed Rodrik or one of his bannermen as his deputy and left Catelyn as the Lady and ceremonial head of the Household only, much as Bran is "the Stark in Winterfell" while everyone knows Rodrik and Luwin are in charge.  He knows Cat better than anyone and he is quite confident to leave her in charge and it's worth remembering she was initally treated by Hoster as his heir before Edmure's birth so she has been raised to lead more than other Westerosi noblewomen.

2) As has been stated Catelyn tried to avoid Tyrion at the Crossraods Inn but, once discovered, she decided she had to prevent Tyrion returning to KL and plotting with the Twins to Ned's detriment.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing but there is nothing "stupid" here: Ned is Hand of the King and best bud to that man, their oldest daughter is betrothed to the Crown Prince and Ned is surrounded by his guard with his hands firmly on the levers of power.  He should be able to take care of himself, something Catelyn realises well enough, UNLESS he is caught offguard by Tyrion warning the Twins of Catelyn's secret visit to KL - which looks like exactly what it is, a secret visit to Ned to warn him agaisnt the Lannisters and to prepare for conflict.  What damage would Tyrion be able to unleash if she allowed him to catch Ned offguard in KL?

3) Releasing Jaime is a major mistake from a military perspective but is this as "stupid" act?  You have to understand Catelyn is written as a tragic figure: a happy, powerful woman living peacefully and contentedly with her husband and family is slowly ground down by one death and disaster after another into a desparate and grieving widow who releases Jaime the very night she learns that her two youngest children have been murdered and in the hope that she can recover her two daughters.  Please don't reduce this desparate act down to one of "stupidity" or "limited intelligence".  It's a decision by a woman who is gradually being broken apart by grief and tragedy.  If you pay attention she made Jaime swear to return her daughters and not to take up arms agasint the Starks and Tullys again.  Old Jaime would not have given a damn, true enough, but so far New Jaime seems pretty adamant on sticking to that promise.

4) Ugh.  She's not dumb and she would not "throw anyone under the bridge if she needed to".  Who does she ever throw under a bridge?  I think you are confusing her with Cersei or Lysa here.  Ned doesn't tell her for plot reasons - Jon's parentage is SECRET and we can't have another POV obstinately refusing to even think about who mothered her husband's bastard - and for practical reasons too.  You keep a lethally dangerous secret a secret by not telling anyone and you keep your loved ones as safe as possible by not sharing that dangerous knowledge with them.

5) So Cat is to blame for LF's actions?  I prefer to ascribe LF's infatuation with Cat to a teenager's crush for a girl who unfortunately for him had no interest in him rather than blame her for his feelings and actions.  Because if someone has an unrequited crush it is totally the other person's doing, right?   The little tease

6) What?  Westerosi marriage alliances are political indeed but the ruling class expect or at least hope that they will be happy marriages.  The idea that your husband brings a bastard home and raises him alongside your own children is a massive blow to the hope of a happy marraige.  This isn't ego, it's dealing with a man equating you with any random stranger he happened to sleep with.  Highborn bastards are not raised with their half-siblings, see Larrence Snow, Lord Hornwood's bastard, being raised at Deepwood Motte or Edric Storm being raised at Storm's End, well away from the affronted wife and legitimate children.  Aside from being the worst possible way to start a marriage it's a huge insult to the bride's family to equate a bastard's blood with their own and in a status conscious society I'm surprised that the Stark and Tully relations aren't more strained after this.  This isn't Catelyn being "selfish", it's a natural reaction to a large affront and upsetting event.

7) The emnity between Starks and Lannisters is sown very effectively by i) LF manipulating Lysa to write to Catelyn to accuse the Lannisters of murdering Jon Arryn, ii) the attempt on Bran's life by Joffrey' assassin (not to mention Cately deducing that Bran did not fall but was pushed) which LF again twists into an accusation agasint Tyrion and iii) the Lannisters believing Robert's appointment of Ned as Hand is the start of a move agaisnt them, including having Cersei set aside.  Ned goes to KL believing the Lannisters are Robert's and by extension his enemies and to look for evidence against them and the Lannisters believe (correctly) that he intends to move agasint them but you ignore all this and blame Catelyn for giving birth to the enmity?  The catnapping is just one event in a long sequence of events driven by faction politics, ambition and LF's manipulation that lead Westeros to war.

8) And yet Rickard Karstark is responsible for his own actions not Cat.  He chose to commit murder to avenge his sons even though Tion Frey and Willem Lannister were not the ones that killed them.  It's coldblooded murder that leads Robb to execute him.

9) Cat did not "go bonkers".  She tried to avoid Tyrion and when that was impossible she took him into custody.  Her plan, as I'm sure you very well know, was to take him to a safe place - The Eyrie being much closer than Winterfell - to hold him hostage until she and Ned could gather what evidence they could and present it to Robert who would try him for attempted murder of Bran.  Going to the Eyrie has the added benefit of allowing her to pick Lysa's brains and to delve into her accusations about the death of Jon Arryn.  You know very well she did not take him there to be executed and she opposes Lysa in her scheme to have Tyrion murdered / tried and executed in the farce that Lysa pleases to call justice. 

You seem bewilderingly prepared to attribute Lysa's malice and irrationality to Cat, while holding Cat reposnsible and exhonerating Lysa for those "crimes".  E.G. you claim that Tyrion should be tried by a king, which is what Ned and Cat plan yet accuse Cat of taking matters into her own hands when it is LYSA who decides to try Tyrion over Cat's objections.  Are you clear on which sister does what in these events?

It's also worth mentioning that the Eyrie is all part of Cat's tragedy, which is still in it's early stages here: the sister who should have been an ally and source of support instead turns out to be a vicious and unpredictabe stranger who hinders rather than helps - though it is only much later that we learn the full extent of the estrangement and the reasons for Lysa's jealousy of and hostility to Cat.

On 23/08/2017 at 9:54 AM, devilish said:

I beg to differ. They both think that they are more intelligent then they actually are, their intrusion on matters they have little knowledge about end up having massive consequences towards their loved ones + they both have one hell of a giant ego/pride which makes them do crazy things. The only difference is that while Ned kept his wife under control for most of her life, Robert did not. However, one Cat was on the loose she caused massive damage to her own family out of pure stupidity. The same can be said of Cersei.

 

Well, this is pretty much the same thing just in shorter format.  Cat is played by LF, that's true enough but no more effectively than Ned is played by him in truth. Cat is one woman with a bodyguard (Ser Rodrik) while Ned is Hand of the King with all the power and resources that entails yet LF i) leads him to the bothel to help him uncover the twincest to set him on a collision course with the Lannisters - as if the secret message from Lysa accusing them of Jon Arryn's death was not enough and ii) bribes the goldcloaks to turn on Ned's men while he holds his dagger to Ned's throat in the throneroom.

I would say Ned's misjudgments play a far greater role in the Stark's downfall than Catelyn's but the thing they have in common is they trust in LF.

The tone of your criticism of Cat strikes me as a bit ugly.  Would you consider that Ned's mistakes in KL were due to him considering himself more intelligent than he actually was, that his decisons were made out of pride and ego rather than pragmatism or necessity or that he caused massive damage to his family out of sheer stupidity?  Remember he warned Cersei to flee, giving her all the time she needed to strike, and he trusted LF too.  If you are not prepared to criticise Ned the same way you do Catelyn I'll have to consider you have an axe to grind here.

22 hours ago, devilish said:

I am referring to the GOT/Medieval mindset, definately not mine. 1) A world were its ok to come home with a bastard and tell your wife to take care of it, force women to have abortions or marry off your daughter to some drunk who can smash things. 

That's create an artificial world for the typical noblewoman to live in. On one hand people like Cersei/Cat are the lady of the house hence feared by everybody. When their husband is at war they are the ruler of the household up until their first born is of age. One the other hand they are too delicate and dandy to learn about warfare, politics, history or decide even the most basics of things like their husband. Their education is mostly about smiling, knitting and acting pretty.

2) Which is a bit of problem as it creates the perfect ego machine. A person whose a queen in her own land  but who has  absolutely no idea of the consequences her actions will create. 3) That is why Cat saw nothing wrong in arresting the heir to CR and then take him to the Vale to have him killed. Tyrion was a foreigner who tried to hurt her boy, they were both on her daddy's land and since daddy had bubu she took him to her sister's land to have him killed. Same thing about Cersei. What could possibly go wrong with arming a pack of filthy plebs with weapons? If things go wrong the lions will scare them away. 

Usually noble ladies have their mothers to help them out into accepting the situation and allowing them to grow into a role which is primarely in the shadow. God knows how useful it was for Margaery to have Olena around (ok she's her grandmother but you get the grip of it). Unfortunately both Cersei and Cat lost their mother relatively early in life. The former earlier then the latter. Which means that they lack the guidance from someone who knows the game. 

I am pretty sure that if given the same education of her peers Cat would have been a much better leader then Edmure (and probably Hoster) is. Same thing (to a less regard) can be said about Cersei who is the slightest more intelligent out of the twins. But that didnt happen. 

 

 

1) It's not ok to come home with a bastard, no one except Ned does this and that is due to the promise he made Lyanna not because it's part of the society and culture of Westeros.

2) I would say that this is far more true of the men - Roose Bolton, Balon/Euron Greyjoy, Tywin/Joffrey/Jaime/Gregor who are raised to believe they can do what they please as it is their right.  I certainly don't believe Cersei and Lysa are normal products due to the soceity conditioning and limited educaton "women" receive but rather narcassistic / sociopathic or damaged INDIVIDUALS and I don't recognise this as a description of Catelyn at all.  For every Cesei/Lysa there is a Maege Mormont / Lady Oakheart, Olyenna Tyrell or, yes, Catelyn Tully that poors cold water on your view of Westerosi society as raising women to be dumb beasts incapable of exercising reason and understanding simple cause and effect.

3) Again where do you get this from?  She takes Tyrion prisoner as i) she believes he attempted to murder her son, ii) she can't allow him to warn the Twins that Ned is working against them and she takes him to the Eyrie as that is a secure place much closer than Winterfell.  She does not intend to kill him and opposes Lysa.  Don't conflate Cat with Lysa, they are different people.....

4) Actually Cat was raised initially to be Hoster's heir so she got more of an education than her peers.  She may not have got as much of the knitting and smiling pretty lessons that seem to be what you think women should be getting in Westeros.  Why is it so hard to consider that her downfall is brought about initially by LF's manipulation (as is Ned's) and that later, as grief piles up on grief despite her best efforts (she told Robb not to send Theon to Balon, remember, but he did and that, to their knowledge cost her two children) she is a shattered woman.

16 hours ago, devilish said:

What GRRM brilliantly portray is the clear flaw in medieval education. Some people who clearly aren't cut for ruling ends up in very high roles mainly because they have a penis. Others take the honourable way to their early grave. People with mental problems end up ruling instead of thrown in a mental hospital, talent like Olena and Margaery Tyrell have to fight not to go in the shadows which is a shame considering that they are among the few with brains, children are massacred for their mistakes, dynasties fall because brilliant daddy couldnt get past that his most brilliant kid is an imp, hordes of living are butchered for some iron seat while the dead are growing strong in numbers. Its an imperfect world which is being lead into ruin. However that's the world GOT is in and we only can judge people from that point of view.

There's a valid and reasonable excuse behind the flaws of most characters in GOT. Gregor Clegane was a child soldier with mental issues (headaches etc) who was shaped to be a weapon of destruction by his master. Cersei was a frustrated spoiled girl who lost the only loving parent she had at quite young age and ended up being used as a pawn by her distant father. She had a loveless childhood (when Joanna died) and a loveless marriage. The only character who can say to be pure evil is Euron Greyjoy.

Having said that, there are a number of mistakes that Cat did which cant be justified. Her 'Family, Duty, Honour' education lead her to kidnap the imp, dragging two regions into war against one of the most powerful regions in Westeros. It also persuaded Robb to commit to a marriage that wasn't good for him and defend a land that Robb simply lacked the men to defend. Lets face it, after Ned's death, Robb could have easily exchanged Jamie for Ned's bones + Sansa and Arya and return home. He was a Stark and whatever happened South to Moat Cailin was the least of his concerns. Yet, he had to remain South of the border to defend Uncle incompetent and his useless region. Meanwhile her lack of education in politics lead her to naively release Jamie which was the only leverage that Robb had to keep the Northern army safe. Those are huge mistakes that cost the North dear.

I don't blame Cat for her mistakes as much as I don't blame Cersei for hers. Ned should have made sure to keep an experienced man behind with the authority and the brains to guide his boy in case something happened to him. Same can be said about Hoster who left behind an utter mess (an incompetent son, a diplomatic mess with one of his strongest bannermen etc) and Tywin (Tyrion had brains but he wasn't the right man for the job (Cersei hated him) + by the time he reached KL it was too late, Ned was killed and Jamie was captured)

 

 

 

 

 

So Gregor and Cersei have "reasonable excuses" for their actions but Cat doesn't.  Whaaaat?  You can gloss over Gregor's lifelong murder and rape and Cersei's murder of her childhood friend and sending people to Qyburn for vivisection but Cat freeing Jaime while broken with grief over Bran and Rickon's deaths is somehow incomprehensible or inexcusable to you?  That looks like a double standard.  Reading your bolded part about Cat releasing Jaime I feel you don't understand her as a character or the state of mind she was in or what she hoped to achieve.  You painfully insist that Cat is the only reason that war broke out which ignores everything happening at a meta level in story and the actions and motives of every other character.  Cat brokered as good a deal as possible for Robb at the Twins (or he could have refused it, right?), Robb threw that all away at The Crag; Cat suggested he bend the knee to Joffrey, Robb said never and allowed himself to be crowned KitN AND Riverlands yet you blame CAT for forcing him into conflict and staying south of the Neck.  This looks like a huge double standard as you blame Cat and exhonerate Robb for his decisions.

Take a step back and allow other individuals to take reposnsibility for their actions rather than taking the easy and lazy route of blaming Bloodraven Cat for everything that happens.

5 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I have been doing a slow and occasional re-read and just this morning one line from Ned while in the dungeon sort of confirmed what I have been thinking for a while.

Ned hated or feared Catelyn. It was pretty hidden from view by GRRM because Ned was thinking painfully of his girls.

Then it says when he thinks of Catelyn it is a bed of nettles. now when we first read it we think he is in pain for his love of her but then again!!

We already have him asking her why she is so cruel.(back in Winterfell re Jon)

Hated is too strong but he certainly had some issues with her.  I recall the very first time we have them together near the heart tree, He addresses her as "My Lady". Not too warm a greeting after 16 years of marriage. Not "my dear," or Cat or Catelyn. Cat always thinks of him as Ned.

We are in Ned's head for a lot of chapters in AGOT.  Nowhere in his thoughts is he disdainful, fearful or hateful of Cat.  While he is in the Black Cells he thinks of his daughters as they are hostages in danger (as Varys makes clear with the threat to Sansa should Ned not confess his treason) while Cat is safe and out of harm's way.  He does think of Cat and that she'll raise the North to free him.  The bed of nettles is wondering whether he'll ever see her again: that's hardly a man glad to see the back of her, more a man who finds the thought that he may not see his wife again a painful one.

[Pikachu101]

5 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

She had Bran, Rickon and Robb to think of, but all she could be bothered with was Sansa and Arya

Bran and Rickon were safe in Winterfell whilst her two daughters were trapped in Kingslanding, of course she'd be desperate to get them back that's not inconsiderate or selfish. If anything acting as though her daughters are inconsequential is selfish and cruel.

5 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

Come to think of it, she forced Ned to accept Robert's offer to become hand after Ned explicitly told her that he was going to refuse him.  

Ned can make his own decisions he's not inept, also:

"She had begged Ned not to go, not now, not after what had happened; everything had changed now, couldn't he see that? It was no use. He had no choice, he had told her, and then he left, choosing"

[Pikachu101]

37 minutes ago, L’Age d’or said:

You clearly have not been in a serious relationship or just feigning ignorance, he was not his own man, he was a family man; a husband and a father.

So he has no free will and everything he does is Cat's fault? 

37 minutes ago, L’Age d’or said:

You need a re-read and a pair of clear glasses.

Oh no Cat encouraged him to take a position that would make him the second most powerful man in the country how awful! Why is Ned so simple and dumb that he only does whatever his wife says 

[Ran]

6 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

She had Bran, Rickon and Robb to think of, but all she could be bothered with was Sansa and Arya; arresting Tyrion and taking him to the Vale was another blunder. Come to think of it, she forced Ned to accept Robert's offer to become hand after Ned explicitly told her that he was going to refuse him. All those are valid reasons to hold her accountable.  

1) She thinks about all of her children constantly. But as others note, and you ignore, what she knew at the start of AGoT was that vital information (namely that it looks like the Lannisters were so spooked by the Starks that they were attempting to murder their _children_) needed to get to Ned (who was accompanied by their very vulnerable daughters) so that they could properly be defended. The boys had Winterfell's strong walls, its guards, its vassals, etc. -- the girls had the paltry number in the Hand's guard, surrounded by men loyal to Cersei in the veritable lion's den. And afterward, everything she did she did to try and protect all of her family: she had Rodrik go to Winterfell to help defend her children, she stayed with Robb to help him get through the war.

2) Catelyn taking Tyrion was a blunder, but had nothing to do with the flaws you claim. She had information that suggested that if she didn't take him, the outcome would be terrible for her family in King's Landing. Seizing him was the only recourse she had to prevent that.

3) She did not "force" him to do anything. She made cogent arguments he could not deny. The decisive argument was that it was unlike Ned to leave Robert's side when he had reason to believe that the Lannisters had murdered Jon Arryn and were perfectly capable of killing Robert next. Telling something they know to be true is a bizzare thing to construe as "forcing". Ned Stark would not be Ned Stark if he had shrugged it off.

Finally, don't be rude to posters.

 

[mormont]

8 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

He did not ask her to take care of Jon, he was a lord and she was a lady, they don't take care of their children; that's the job of the servants and nannies. What would be not okay in a medieval setting was Ned legitimising Jon which he did not and never even hinted at. That is not to say he could not do it, since the king was his best friend. 

Cat being unkind and cruel to Jon is not unwarranted, it's a natural reaction; I don't think she is selfish or inherently sadistic because of it. But that was not the point of my post and you know it. 

I'm sorry: it was not my intention to suggest that you do believe Cat to be selfish, let alone sadistic, and so far as I can see nothing in my post does suggest that. But if you read some of it that way, I apologise. I was using your post as an entry into the broader issue, not placing you in a particular camp.

As for 'taking care' of Jon, that's a complex issue depending on what we mean by 'care'. It's clear that servants attend to quite a lot of the daily needs of the kids - but at the same time, Cat does have maternal moments with her own children, and she and they reflect on these. It often seems to be a criticism made of Cat by some readers that she doesn't have this with Jon, but there is of course no reason why she should.

On the other hand, as noted, there's a sense in which just leaving Jon at Winterfell while Cat is in charge makes her responsible for his welfare, and it's unfair of Ned not to think of the fact that this would put Cat and Jon in an awkward place. It's clear he hasn't considered that when he proposes the idea.

7 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

She had Bran, Rickon and Robb to think of, but all she could be bothered with was Sansa and Arya

In addition to Ran's remarks, I'd note that the common criticism of Cat is that she thinks of Robb's needs too much. From the moment she meets up with him in the Riverlands, his needs are foremost in her mind. She doesn't go back to look after Bran and Rickon, or even go running off to search for Arya, because she knows Robb is in need of help managing this enormous task he's taken on.

Eventually he outgrows that need (or thinks he has, at any rate) but to begin with, this is undoubtedly Cat's priority.

7 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

Come to think of it, she forced Ned to accept Robert's offer to become hand after Ned explicitly told her that he was going to refuse him.

She didn't force him, she wasn't wrong, and in any case after Bran's fall she changed her mind (and Ned refused to listen to her).

[devilish]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Which was the advice that Catelyn gave him.  She wanted peace.  Robb and his Bannermen proclaimed the independence of the North.

The deal that she brokered with Walder Frey was a good one, in the circumstances.  In return for Robb marrying his daughter, she got 4,000 soldiers, plus passage across the Trident.  The alternatives were a bloody siege of the Twins, or retreat Northwards. Robb messed that up all on his own.

If Robb retreated Northwards then the North would have been spared from the misery. Eventually the Lannisters would have to butter Robb up to have him bend the knee. That what they did with Dorne (Myrcella, Oberyn role etc). Robb might have gone South to save his dad but remained there because his useless Uncle couldn't keep his castle without the wolf's help

[cpg2016]

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

There again may I remind you that Cersei wasn't the one who kidnapped a Stark in total disregard that her husband is literally surrounded by them

Uh.... she keeps Sansa hostage (kidnapping) while Jaime is a captive, so... effectively the same thing.

And Ned isn't "completely surrounded" by Lannisters.  If he understood the true power of his office, Cersei would have been at his mercy, not the other way around, and the Lannisters only escape annihilation by the skin of their teeth and some nice authorial intrusion.

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

There's a reason why Ned never told her anything about Jon's origins. The girl is dumb and would throw anyone under the bridge if she needs to.

Well Ned never tells anyone about Jon's origins, so I guess everyone is dumb and would throw anyone under a bridge?  I mean, seriously.  He doesn't tell her because he knows that (a) that is how rumors begin, and (b) Cat's first loyalty is to her children.  Knowing Jon's parentage means she now has to decide whether to risk the wrath of Robert coming North and pulling down Winterfell, and her kids with it, in an attempt to wipe out "dragonspawn".

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

LF can be accused of many things but he ain't stupid let alone suicidal. He wouldn't have gone so far if Cat didn't showed any interest to him. 

What in the world makes you think this?  He tries to kiss Sansa in the Eyrie (in a weird transference of lust) despite her not showing the least bit interest in him, which we know for a fact through her POV.  Plus, Littlefinger IS stupid.  He monologues all his schemes to practically everyone he meets; he's smart but vain and wants everyone to know how smart he is, which is a bad combination.

He duels Brandon (which is suicidal) specifically because he drunkenly remembers sleeping with Cat, when it was Lysa.  Furthermore, we have Cat's recollections at his attempt to stick his tongue down her throat when they played kissing games as kids, and how she tried to stop it.  The most evidence we have of Cat "leading him on" is dancing with him a bunch of times at a feast.  My guess is you danced with a girl at prom who shot you down, and now you think that's the height of sexual taunting, huh?

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

Seriously? Hoster couldn't even keep his own house in order let alone having the upper hand on Rickard. Brynden did what he wanted and got away with it

And Rickard did better?  His daughter might have run off and broken an important betrothal (I think more likely kidnapped, but it's up in the air).  His eldest son and heir went galloping off shouting for the Crown Prince to die, which is real smart (justified, but stupid).  Brynden didn't "get away" with anything - he was effectively exiled.

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

the Freys did what they wanted and got away with it, LF had sex with his daughter under his own roof and got away with it. The moment a decent general walked in the Riverlands with an army everything went tits up and some wolf pup had to come to the rescue.

Um, the Frey's most certainly don't get away with anything.  You are looking at this from the perspective of a modern day person.  A feudal vassal would view Hoster punishing Walder Frey for his late arrival as a gross injustice.  As far as LF goes - I'd say Lysa has sex with him, rather than the other way around.  In modern parlance, she rapes him.

And when that "decent" general walks into the Riverlands, Hoster is old, bedridden and cancerous.  Hardly his fault at that point.

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

Jon is of no threat to her children. He's a well educated bastard who love his half brothers and half sisters intensely and he knows his place. Cat hates him because he's a clear testament that Ned might have prefered another woman to her and therefore she's not that special at all

Honestly, go back to your 5th grade history class or however young you are.  You don't understand the nature of feudal politics, you clearly don't have the reading comprehension to pick up what GRRM is writing down, and your interpretations are laughably skewed.  Every single sentence you write, essentially, screams "I'm a nice guy!  Why don't all the girls like me, when I listen to them and talk them through their problems, and then they go off and make out with those other guys who aren't right by their side!".

Catelyn understands feudal politics.  She understands that the North is insular, even by Westerosi standards, and that she's a "foreign" bride in a Kingdom in which the long-standing tradition has been to marry sons and daughters to bannerman Houses.  She understands that most of her kids, especially Robb, look like Tullys and not Starks.  And that Jon, despite being a bastard, looks like a Stark, and moreover, that Ned is raising him as a Stark.  He's being given a lordly education and training.  He's openly acknowledged in Winterfell.  He's essentially Daemon Blackfyre for the North, with all that entails.  That Jon has no intention of usurping Robb's place is totally immaterial, because Catelyn rightly knows that if it comes to it, Jon may end up being a figurehead for a movement that doesn't like Ned Stark.  You don't think Lady Dustin would love to see through her vendetta by putting a bastard that is totally reliant on her for political support in Winterfell?  She snubs the hated Starks and gains influence, all at once.

The point being, Catelyn Stark is several orders of magnitude more intelligent than you.

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

May I remind you that Jon wasn't the one who caused the amnety between the Lannisters and the Starks by kidnapping Tyrion. Jon wasn't the one who released Jamie either. The former caused Ned's injury, the latter fast-tracked the Karstark's treason. What Jon did was to break his vows to try to rescue Arya. That caused his death. So really, who loves the Starks the most?

First off, look up what an "amnesty" is, and how it's spelled.  Maybe 5th grade was too generous of a guess.  Or are you going for "enmity"?  Either way, I suggest you keep the dictionary closer at hand.

Second, Catelyn does not "kidnap" Tyrion, and I'll thank you to use the proper terminology.  She arrests him, with all the legal implications entailed, and does so with the active support of many prominent Riverland Houses.  That we know she has been given false testimony/evidence shouldn't blind us to the fact that Catelyn not only couches her "abduction" as an arrest, but lets Tyrion go after his trial by combat.

And I am not saying that sending Jaime off in a prisoner exchange (not a "release", thanks very much) was smart.  I'm just pointing out that you're habit of drawing false equivalencies, not to mention your total lack of a grasp on the English language (I'll be charitable and chalk it up to ESL), makes you look a fool.

And Ned dies because he doesn't understand the power of his office.  He thinks he's just a friend of Robert's there to advise and help him.  In reality, he's essentially sovereign in his own right, no less because Robert doesn't care about ruling.  If Ned had acted as a Hand is legally entailed to, the books end at the end of Game of Thrones, with the Starks/Baratheons triumphant, the main branch of House Lannister wiped out, and all the political controversy over.

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

What made Cersei powerful was Robert's absence in everything that matters.

Um, no.  This is wrong.  Not debatable, not misguided, but wrong.  Cersei wields no power.  She wields a HUGE amount of influence, since Robert won't fight her on anything, but that isn't the same as political power.  That is what makes any Queen or courtier powerful, is having the ear of the King.  It's why nobles in our world used to fight each other to do jobs for the King that would be disgusting or demeaning to modern eyes; because proximity to the crown yields influence.  The Lannisters are highly influential because Cersei has managed to get them into important and respected positions, such as squires for Robert.

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

The moment Ned moved South, Cat went bonkers by kidnapping Tyrion on the most ridiculous of accusations and by taking him to the Vale to have him executed.

Seriously?  What books did you read.  Cat arrests Tyrion after having a trusted source tell her that the murder weapon belonged to Tyrion.  A suspicion which is perfectly reasonable in context, having had her sister warn her against Lannister treachery previously.  That both of these pieces of evidence were planted is no reflection on Cat's intelligence or insight.  She arrests Tyrion after discussing all this with Ned, her husband and also the most powerful man in the kingdom, for all intents and purposes.  And she doesn't take him to be executed, she takes him to trial - a trial in which she conducts herself far more honorably than the Lannisters, actually letting Tyrion go when he wins his trial by combat (compared to the Lannisters executing Ned after he strikes his "plea bargain").

On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 AM, devilish said:

Lysa had nothing to do with Tyrion's 'crimes' (crime wasn't done at the Vale, Tyrion wasn't captured at the Vale and the heir to CR should be judged by a king) and yet Cat took matters in her own hands. 

Lysa had told Catelyn that the Lannisters arranged for Jon Arryn's murder.

And what in the world is informing you that the "heir" to Casterly Rock should be judged by a king?  You just made that up out of whole cloth.  When Tyrion is tried in SoS, the king doesn't sit in judgment, so I think we can all safely agree that you have no clue what you're talking about in half of these instances, and are actually emphatically, undeniably wrong in the rest.

I get it.  The pretty popular girls at your high school aren't interested in you romantically, so you are taking that out on an anonymous internet forum and criticizing fictional women who act the way those girls do - they're nice, but don't want you.  Just like Catelyn was nice, but was sexually or romantically interested in Petyr.  But your own Nice Guy Syndrome doesn't translate onto what GRRM has written, so maybe find another outlet for it.

[The Sunland Lord]

She wasn't selfish. She was a dutiful and a loving mother and wife. Despite Eddard never told her the true story about Jon-she remained loyal and raised normal kids. 

She did commit acts of selfishness, even stupidity, but I would never say she was the most selfish woman in Westeros- actually she is quite a normal, healthy person, with all of her flaws and girly naivete. 

I wouldn't call Jaime the most philanthropic person in Westeros because he killed Aerys and saved so many people, for example. One or few actions doesn't determine anyone.

It's the cost of the actions of a person that may influence someone's judgement, and it's understandable too. 

[Luddagain]

Catelyn was foolish, and selfish and overly ambitious.

 

I am tired of hearing all this Ned and bastards stuff. There were LOTS of bastards in great houses - Joy Hill, Freys a plenty and of course Dorne.

1. Sure MOSTLY young bastards live with their mothers for obvious reasons, but when the mother is also dead this is not a practical reality.

2. Being raised in a castle is not the same as being placed in a bedroom next door and having to have regular daily contact with a bastard child - to wipe their bum and wash their clothes. She would not have needed to spend more than 1/2 an hour in Jon's company. Cat was expected just to be kind towards Jon ie not cruel. to smile if he did something cute, to not be too overt about her preference for her own kids and to make him feel welcome. Sort of like we all parents do when a visitor comes to stay - might be a friend of your kid or a relative etc. Now most of us despise the parent who favours their own child overtly in such situations - we generally assume the mother spoils her own kid and will raise a super brat.

3. There is a NORTHERN or at least stark tradition of bastards being raised at Winterfell eg Lonnel Snow and Brandon Snow. Cat would have been told this

4. There is another factor strongly hinted at but perhaps not known to Cat, but it somehow seems essential for Northern bastards to be acknowledged by their fathers very early. It may somehow be linked to the weirwoods and the Others. Note Craster and his abhorrence of bastards - Incest OK but not bastards. I am sure this is a factor that explains Ned'd insistence on rearing Jon himself.

5. No matter what way you look at it Cat was cruel and mean to Jon. Sorry but to treat a CHILD in that way is unforgivable. It literature we often hear the horrid tales of Stepmothers/guardians mistreating their step children and we hate the step mother. Cinderella, Snow white,and Jane Eyre all spring to mind. Stop and think a second. Just imagine that your partner had a bastard child aged perhaps seven. The child may have been conceived as a short term fling before your marriage or during perhaps a quarrel or even just a drunken night out. The mother was dead. Perhaps your husband arranges for the child to be reared by a maternal grandmother but she is too old or is sick for a while. The child comes to stay. It is Xmas and you are handing out gifts to the children. Do you ignore the bastard child or give him a gift way inferior to the one your son of the same age receives? Do you prevent him joining the family around the Xmas tree? Do you encourage your eldest daughter to be rude to him? Do you give him smaller portions of food?  I certainly hope NOT, but that is what Cat does. There is NO moral justification for blaming the child. This was the land where ALL marriages were arranged. There were very few love matches. As it happens I have an ex sister in law in a somewhat similar situation. I used to be really fond of her but she like Cat apparently ignored and was cold towards her partners very young child. Her behaviour was unforgivable. No ifs no buts. Just mean and cruel.

6. Finally I am betting that Cat hated Jon because deep in her heart she knows that Robb is also a bastard in that he is Brandon's son. 

[mcchickyn]

My dislike of her is more personal because she wronged Jon and Tyrion who I happen to love, however I think we can agree that a lot of the flack she gets comes from the benefit of hindsight. All of these mistakes she has made in the name of her children and had serious repercussions, i.e. starting a war serious and we can take multiple actions of hers and link them to negative outcomes. 

You could say the same thing about Lyanna, however that was only one action of hers and also (if we are assuming R+L=J) we have no idea what the repercussions will be if/when the information is made public in Westeros. Maybe it will be good, maybe bad, maybe by the end of the books we will be hating her and Ned for hiding this information. But as for now, we don't spend too much time thinking about it because we don't know if the information will positively or negatively impact the realm/our favourites. 

Jaime pushing Bran out of a window was obviously horrible, but Bran seems to be doing fine and his paralysis has not caused fatal outcomes as of yet. From my vague recollections, there has not been a moment where Bran's inability to walk has caused large scale conflict. 

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Catelyn was foolish, and selfish and overly ambitious.

 

I am tired of hearing all this Ned and bastards stuff. There were LOTS of bastards in great houses - Joy Hill, Freys a plenty and of course Dorne.

1. Sure MOSTLY young bastards live with their mothers for obvious reasons, but when the mother is also dead this is not a practical reality.

2. Being raised in a castle is not the same as being placed in a bedroom next door and having to have regular daily contact with a bastard child - to wipe their bum and wash their clothes. She would not have needed to spend more than 1/2 an hour in Jon's company. Cat was expected just to be kind towards Jon ie not cruel. to smile if he did something cute, to not be too overt about her preference for her own kids and to make him feel welcome. Sort of like we all parents do when a visitor comes to stay - might be a friend of your kid or a relative etc. Now most of us despise the parent who favours their own child overtly in such situations - we generally assume the mother spoils her own kid and will raise a super brat.

3. There is a NORTHERN or at least stark tradition of bastards being raised at Winterfell eg Lonnel Snow and Brandon Snow. Cat would have been told this

4. There is another factor strongly hinted at but perhaps not known to Cat, but it somehow seems essential for Northern bastards to be acknowledged by their fathers very early. It may somehow be linked to the weirwoods and the Others. Note Craster and his abhorrence of bastards - Incest OK but not bastards. I am sure this is a factor that explains Ned'd insistence on rearing Jon himself.

5. No matter what way you look at it Cat was cruel and mean to Jon. Sorry but to treat a CHILD in that way is unforgivable. It literature we often hear the horrid tales of Stepmothers/guardians mistreating their step children and we hate the step mother. Cinderella, Snow white,and Jane Eyre all spring to mind. Stop and think a second. Just imagine that your partner had a bastard child aged perhaps seven. The child may have been conceived as a short term fling before your marriage or during perhaps a quarrel or even just a drunken night out. The mother was dead. Perhaps your husband arranges for the child to be reared by a maternal grandmother but she is too old or is sick for a while. The child comes to stay. It is Xmas and you are handing out gifts to the children. Do you ignore the bastard child or give him a gift way inferior to the one your son of the same age receives? Do you prevent him joining the family around the Xmas tree? Do you encourage your eldest daughter to be rude to him? Do you give him smaller portions of food?  I certainly hope NOT, but that is what Cat does. There is NO moral justification for blaming the child. This was the land where ALL marriages were arranged. There were very few love matches. As it happens I have an ex sister in law in a somewhat similar situation. I used to be really fond of her but she like Cat apparently ignored and was cold towards her partners very young child. Her behaviour was unforgivable. No ifs no buts. Just mean and cruel.

6. Finally I am betting that Cat hated Jon because deep in her heart she knows that Robb is also a bastard in that he is Brandon's son. 

Interesting.  It seems your main grievance against Cat is her treatment of Jon and that seems to get in the way of any other assessment you make of her.  I mean your point 6 is false and you know it but your dislike is leading you to make a pretty malicious accusation out of a desire to wound her reputation somehow (fictional character being discussed on the internet and all).

It's always hard to put aside our behavioural norms and understand those of a different age and culture but your point 5 screams of a misunderstanding that Catelyn should welcome Jon and play the part of a foster mother.  That's what we would expect today, it's not what they did in the middle ages and it's not what they do in Westeros.  Also, don't make this personal, you may have a visceral reaction to a character for your own reasons but try and understand the cultural norms around marriage are different in story and you shouldn't assume a bias in your reading of a character in every single action and decision throughout their arc because of this one issue.

[The Gizzard of Oz]

Cat is a little bit selfish but not nearly as selfish as her daughter Sansa.  Any noble woman in Cat's situation would resent Jon.  It's an insult to her to have him around like that.  Most nobles hide their bastards.  I do not hold that against her, the way she treated Jon.  What I dislike about Catelyn is releasing Jaime.  She placed the safety of her two daughters over the safety of all their banner men and their soldiers, for two children.  It's bad mathematics and irresponsible in a time of war. 

[Luddagain]

 

Sunland

 

No Cat is not the most selfish woman at all and by no means is she truly bad (Lady Stonehart is pretty name nasty), however not is she a truly good character. at times she is wise but often she is stupid.

The way to judge whether someone is selfish or not is to weigh up acts of kindness versus those of unkindness and then reach a consclusion.

1. Towards Jon she was unquestionably cruel (Ned's words)

2. She was a little cruel towards arya

3. she was a little cruel towards Rickon - sure under great stress but still!

 

On the other hand we see her

1. Being kind to Brienne

2. Being kind to her father

3. Loving Ned and her children

 

On balance I think she comes out as basically a kind character. but still flawed. She is certainly not the most selfish woman in westeros. 

 

However she is certainly NOT particularly emotionally stable

1. Her reaction to Bran's injury

2. Her insane handling of Tyrion

3. Her release of Jaime

4. Her final act of slitting the throat of jinglebells.

5. Her personality as Stoneheart

 

i think we can sort of see where the girls get some aspects of their personality-  Arya's vengefullness is pure Cat, Sansa's obsession with being a Lady and her self centredness is also pretty much from Cat. 

 

[Luddagain]

The tress

 

No I am fairly convinced re Robb being Brandon's son. The timing and the dates fit MUCH better and it explains Ned's behaviour.  We KNOW Brandon was a loose screw and had no qualms about taking a girl's virginity (at least if we believe lady Dustin) so I cannot see why we would not assume he would take liberties with Catelyn. She adored him.  The tully girls seemed to have no chaperone.

We sort of know that Ned was in love with Asahra Dayne, otherwise why hush the story of Jon so very, very much.  Somehow i find it hard to believe that Ned married Catelyn while still in love with another, unless there was very, very good cause. Her pregnancy seems a probable one. 

 

 

[Moonmoon]

Cat is the most selfish woman in the series? What are you smoking, OP? 

And where the hell is this "mistreatment of jon" idea coming from??? She never showed him affection but neither did she abuse him. She was INDIFFERENT to him. It was ONLY ONE time when she said harsh words to jon. She wasn't in correct state of mind then as she was mourning for her crippled dying son, hadn't slept or eaten for days. Even GRRM himself has stated this happened only ONCE. Do you people know more than the author?

Hating a character for being mean to your favorite character is so absurd to me and I say this as someone who loves jon and tyrion.

[Makk]

41 minutes ago, Moonmoon said:

And where the hell is this "mistreatment of jon" idea coming from??? She never showed him affection but neither did she abuse him. She was INDIFFERENT to him. It was ONLY ONE time when she said harsh words to jon. She wasn't in correct state of mind then as she was mourning for her crippled dying son, hadn't slept or eaten for days. Even GRRM himself has stated this happened only ONCE. Do you people know more than the author?

There is much more than that. This is not a simplistic issue, as I said earlier in the thread, Ned is partly to blame because he refused to say anything. But of course he is doing so because he is sticking to his promise.

Quote

"What of Jon Snow, my lord?" Maester Luwin asked.

Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

However your example of when she said it should have been you that fell is not even the most extreme case imo, what was worse was her trying to manipulate things in the background by poisoning Robb's and Ned's feelings towards him.

Quote

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now.

"He and Robb are close," Ned said. "I had hoped …"

"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—"

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."

Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

In the above passage you can see her motivation. She wants Jon gone, she wants the possible threat, no matter how unlikely, to her children removed.

And of course she was poisoning Robb's mind as he was growing up

Quote

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

Luckily Robb rose above it, but she still tried to stop Robb naming Jon his heir spurting out some pretty offensive insults
 

Quote

 

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

"Mother." There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. "You forget. My father had four sons."

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

"Jon's more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell."

"Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life."

 "So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

"Jon would never harm a son of mine."

"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."

"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . ."

". . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father's head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya's gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they'll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice."

"I cannot," she said. "In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it."

"I don't have to. I'm the king." Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

 

We can see from Jons thoughts it was not just the one time when she was cold or even cruel. It did effect Jon and possibly drove him to join the nightswatch just to get away. This was just after your example but it shows that she has been cold to him in the past.

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Something cold moved in her eyes. "I told you to leave," she said. "We don't want you here."

Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry. He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark. "He's my brother," he said.

And more thoughts of how she has been in the past

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And so they were, he thought to himself after Sam had taken his leave. Robb and Bran and Rickon were his father's sons, and he loved them still, yet Jon knew that he had never truly been one of them. Catelyn Stark had seen to that. The grey walls of Winterfell might still haunt his dreams, but Castle Black was his life now, and his brothers were Sam and Grenn and Halder and Pyp and the other cast-outs who wore the black of the Night's Watch.

 

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Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King's Landing either.

 

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It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

I think it is pretty clear that Catelyn had constantly been at best cold and distant towards Jon. It's entirely possible that she has been cruel as well, we have only seen a tiny portion of their relationship on page so there were many other times she may have been as nasty. And of course she was manipulative behind his back.

But as I say, I don't hate Catelyn, flaws are in many ways what make characters interesting. I think there is a huge amount to this relationship and that is why I think she will be the one to resurrect him.