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Cat the Most selfish Women in all the seven Kingdoms


1northlad

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I think the way she treated jon soured me on her from the start. And then her taking tyrion prisoner was incredibly selfish and impulsive because if she had spent five seconds thinking it through she would have seen it would not end well. She does stupid stuff constantly. Later on I can understand her stupidity because she is mad with grief after losing all her children except rob and sansa who is prisoner. But in the begining she does incredible stupid things for no reason. Yes bran was hurt but she was able to calm herself enough to go to kings landing.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And the only reason he wasn't at the table was because Cat didn't want to add any legitimacy to Jon.  It did not appear to be any decision that Ned made.

He wasn't at the table because it's disrespectful to the king and queen, that's why Oberyn made such a public display of Ellaria sitting next to him. This is an ingrained social customs, Ned would have done this regardless of whether or not Cat was there.

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27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The one person, on the other hand, that Ned does worry about doing harm to Jon, is Cat:

He's not worried she'll do harm to Jon he's worried that she'll choose her kids over him which is completely acceptable and justified. Ned would have done the same thing if it was between saving Robb or Theon

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8 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

He's not worried she'll do harm to Jon he's worried that she'll choose her kids over him which is completely acceptable and justified. Ned would have done the same thing if it was between saving Robb or Theon

He's not even worried about that. He's considering a hypothetical.

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8 minutes ago, mormont said:

He's not even worried about that. He's considering a hypothetical.

Umm, no this is clearly something Ned worries about, otherwise why does he pray that it never comes to Cat having to make that decision.  Clearly, Ned knows that there is a possibility that one day Jon's life could be a threat to Cat's children.  Now you could make the argument that if Jon is Rhaegar's child, that knowledge could put all of Winterfell in jeopardy with the King.  But once again, nowhere do we ever have Ned worrying specifically about Jon's safety with Robert, and his actions seem to indicate that he does not fear Jon's safety with Robert.  

Perhaps, just perhaps there is something about Jon's birth that would put him in conflict with Cat and her children, that does not involve Robert or the Targaryens.

It's interesting that this seems to line up with Jon's own dark subconscious.  Jon dreams of slaying Ned and Robb and taking Winterfell for himself.

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On 8/21/2017 at 7:31 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

According to the author, indifference is exactly what she showed to Jon except for that one time when she hadn't been sleeping for days and was out of her mind with worry about Bran. There are no "multiple occasions" there's only that one, and per GRRM it was an isolated incident. I don't see why people have trouble understanding that.

Agree 100%.  I personally can't stand Cat.  I think she is naive and annoying.  Is she the worst person in all of Westeros?  No.  That goes to Cersie or Ramsey.  But the way so many people go on and on about what a horrible person she was to Jon just isn't backed up by the text.  People seem to imagine she's like the mother from "A Child Called It".  She wasn't.  There are plenty of reasons to dislike Cat, "It should have been you" just isn't one of them. 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

She didn't direct any hate at Jon, outside of that single, extraordinary incident in which she was exhausted both physically and emotionally. She directed nothing toward him -- he was someone in Winterfell, who was not her kin or guest or friend, and that's it. She was as distant from him as she was some random scullion in the kitchens. Does she hates the scullion? No. But they're just... there. So with Jon, as Ned's say-so. That Jon figured out she'd rather not have him around is Ned's fault, not hers.

Far be it for me to argue with the board king and someone who has actually produced material for the world, but as I said in a separate post upthread, there are other examples where she did direct other things towards him. While the other incidents may not have been as malicious as telling him he should have fallen from a tower, every single time George speaks about Jon and Catelyn, he draws attention to how strained their relationship is. She did not just ignore him.

 

This shows she has said similar things in the past...

Quote

Something cold moved in her eyes. "I told you to leave," she said. "We don't want you here."

Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry.

This shows she had tried to keep her sons somewhat separate from Jon...

Quote

And so they were, he thought to himself after Sam had taken his leave. Robb and Bran and Rickon were his father's sons, and he loved them still, yet Jon knew that he had never truly been one of them. Catelyn Stark had seen to that. The grey walls of Winterfell might still haunt his dreams, but Castle Black was his life now, and his brothers were Sam and Grenn and Halder and Pyp and the other cast-outs who wore the black of the Night's Watch

...and she was filling Robb's head with prejudice (this is heartbreaking)...

Quote

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

Again, this is not ignoring him...

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It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

She would never have paid this much attention to a kitchen scullion. I do agree that Ned is partly (I suspect you think more) to blame for this. I understand her reaction and think it's believable and I don't think it's selfish as she is worried about her children rather than herself. But I still think it is a character flaw.

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@Makk

 

First quote doesn't actually conclusively state that -- it could just as well mean that _if_ she had ever said anything like that to him before, he knows he would have run/cried, but it doesn't mean that she ever did so; and against that we have GRRM specifically stating that what she said to Jon was an extraordinary occasion, something she'd never done before.

Second quote means what exactly? That because Catelyn didn't accept him as their brother, he didn't feel fully like their sibling? She didn't think of Beth Cassel as their sister, either, but you don't see Beth complaining. And neither she nor Ned treated Theon as a foster son... and, well, he does complain in his self-pity, but how many people indict them for it? He was a hostage and a ward, taken from a hostile family, treated with respect but there was no question as to why he was there or what it would mean if his father stepped out of line again.

Third is merely stating facts. It's not prejudice. He _is_ bastard-born, and he won't become Lord of Winterfell. She's not responsible for protecting Jon from reality. She's not responsible for him at all.

Fourth is Jon certainly being aware that she didn't want him around, but... it's a look, and it's a look that is one-sided -- the subject of the gaze is interpreting it, but we're never in the head of Catelyn when she's looking at him, and so his read of what it means may be, at best, simplistic and biased towards his own feelings and concerns.

Did she curse him? Beat him? Scream at him? No. She made it plain she wanted nothing to do with him... by having nothing to do with him. For a boy without a mother, perhaps it's a shame that no woman stepped up to play that role. But that's nothing to indict Catelyn for -- it's something to indict Ned for, for putting Jon in that position, and for placing Catelyn in an untenable position vis-a-vis Jon

None of this stuff is anything other than what George has indicated: Catelyn didn't want him around, and associated with him as little as she could. He would notice this, and recognize she didn't want him around, and certainly that was an unpleasant reality for him. But she was not going around making his life a misery, or anything close. She ignored him. She wasn't involved with him. She wasn't his mother, and no one could make her be that.

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20 hours ago, Moonmoon said:

I thought everyone and their mother knows that quote by now so I didn't bother but here you go

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1042/

If you still can't accept the author's words then we have nothing more to talk about.

Why should everyone know an offhand comment he made in 1999? It would take a few seconds to post it here.

It doesn't even completely support what you have been saying.

 

Quote

 

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

 

The answer is non-committal and not really conducive to use as evidence to argue semantics. The only bit here that supports what you are saying is that GRRM says she didn't verbally abuse and attack him. But the fact he refuses to rule out the word "mistreatment" (because it's too broad) shows there were other lesser cases that could be considered mistreatment and the actual material supports that.

Was this a verbal reply? If so I am even more wary of it.

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3 minutes ago, Makk said:

Was this a verbal reply? If so I am even more wary of it.

This was an e-mail, forwarded to me for inclusion in the SSM by a long-time member of the board, Markus Rasch.

I can't see how it's non-commital. GRRM is clearly pushing back against the use of an emotionally-charged concept -- "mistreatment", when speaking of a child, raises images of child abuse -- which is not at all representative of what he intended to convey in the relationship.

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2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Third is merely stating facts. It's not prejudice. He _is_ bastard-born, and he won't become Lord of Winterfell. She's not responsible for protecting Jon from reality. She's not responsible for him at all.

The prejudice isn't the fact he is a bastard, the prejudice would be her telling Robb that because he is a bastard he might try to steal Robb's birthright.

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

None of this stuff is anything other than what George has indicated: Catelyn didn't want him around, and associated with him as little as she could. He would notice this, and recognize she didn't want him around, and certainly that was an unpleasant reality for him. But she was not going around making his life a misery, or anything close. She ignored him. She wasn't involved with him. She wasn't his mother, and no one could make her be that.

I simply can't agree with you that Catelyn was ignoring Jon. She was extremely conscious of his presence. 

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 Cat didn't like Jon. She didn't like what Jon represented/reminded her of every day.

She was, presumably, cold, distant, hard-to-please, and strict when it came to Jon. She may have been somewhat passive-aggressive when it came to Jon.

 

However, when you get right down to it, Cat's generally passive dislike and distance from Jon, is hardly the worst reaction she could have had. Sure, Jon and Ned, and probably most of the Stark children, would have preferred Cat have been kinder and warmer to Jon, but she could have treated Jon much worse than she did, and in all honesty she didn't really treat him that all that badly.

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Umm, no this is clearly something Ned worries about, otherwise why does he pray that it never comes to Cat having to make that decision. 

Because he understands that Cat, like most of us, would pick her own child over almost anyone else. Possibly also because he cares about Cat and would never want her to have to take such a decision.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Clearly, Ned knows that there is a possibility that one day Jon's life could be a threat to Cat's children.

He's willing to entertain the idea as a hypothetical: we can say no more than that.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 Now you could make the argument that if Jon is Rhaegar's child, that knowledge could put all of Winterfell in jeopardy with the King.  But once again, nowhere do we ever have Ned worrying specifically about Jon's safety with Robert, and his actions seem to indicate that he does not fear Jon's safety with Robert.  

What actions are those?

Your evidence for this is largely about looking at things that Ned doesn't do and filling in the gaps. You don't see Ned panic about the visit, you accept as gospel the idea that Cat and not Ned was behind moving Jon from the top table at the feast, and boom, conclusion. It's weak stuff, I'm afraid.

There's nothing Ned actually does that is inconsistent with being cautious about Jon and Robert spending time together. The one thing he does do, is rule out taking Jon to KL, absolutely, with no negotiation, despite the fact that the alternative is leaving Jon in Cat's care.

But this is a digression into R+L=J, rather than the character of Cat, so let's leave that aside.

1 hour ago, Makk said:

The prejudice isn't the fact he is a bastard, the prejudice would be her telling Robb that because he is a bastard he might try to steal Robb's birthright.

Where does she tell Robb that?

1 hour ago, Makk said:

I simply can't agree with you that Catelyn was ignoring Jon. She was extremely conscious of his presence. 

The two are not incompatible.

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21 minutes ago, mormont said:

Where does she tell Robb that?

Why would Robb all of a sudden come out with this line if she hadn't?

Quote

 

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

 

And then she definitively says it here, but Robb is now grown and he (and Greywind) will not have a bar of it.

Quote

 

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

"Mother." There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. "You forget. My father had four sons."

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

"Jon's more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell."

"Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life."

 "So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

"Jon would never harm a son of mine."

"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."

"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . ."

". . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father's head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya's gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they'll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice."

"I cannot," she said. "In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it."

"I don't have to. I'm the king." Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

 

 

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4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think the way she treated jon soured me on her from the start. And then her taking tyrion prisoner was incredibly selfish and impulsive because if she had spent five seconds thinking it through she would have seen it would not end well. She does stupid stuff constantly. Later on I can understand her stupidity because she is mad with grief after losing all her children except rob and sansa who is prisoner. But in the begining she does incredible stupid things for no reason. Yes bran was hurt but she was able to calm herself enough to go to kings landing.

There's nothing remotely selfish and impulsive about taking Tyrion.  She tries to avoid him and when that fails she decides that she has to prevent him heading to KL and alerting Jaime and Cersei to her secret visit to Ned.  Bear in mind that to the Lannisters the only reason for her to make a secret visit is to plot agasint them so taking Tyrion out of play, and also bear in mind she has been manipulated into believing he attempted to kill her son, is entirely rational and, as she is thiking of Ned and her daughters in KL, it's the opposite of selfish.  As to impulsive: sometimes you only have as much time as the situation allows to make a decision and she only has moments.  Those moments are enough to decide what to do, assess who is in the room and how they will react, work out how to win as much sympathy and generate as much hostility to Tyrion as possible and then trap him neatly.  She also heads straight up the High Road to the eyrie rather than the North Road to Winterfell to wrong foot any pursuers.  And all some people can say is she's dumb and selfish.  Think about what happens if she does nothing.

No one can know how things will turn out.  If Lysa had been sane and an ally rather than a hidden opponent then she would have kept her hostage and Tywin's rebellion would have been crushed by Robert and Ned.  That GRRM decided to write a different story and one that we are privy to doesn't make Catelyn dumb.  "She does incredible stupid things for no reason" is just a lazy way of saying we know how things turn out.  None of the characters have that luxury and most of the principal actors of AGOT and ACOK are dead with plenty more to follow one assumes.

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17 minutes ago, Makk said:

Why would Robb all of a sudden come out with this line if she hadn't?

And then she definitively says it here, but Robb is now grown and he (and Greywind) will not have a bar of it.

 

I don't mean to intrude into your debate but how is Cat telling her young children that the boy being raised alongside them is not their trueborn brother or that, as he is approximately Robb's age, telling Robb that he not Jon will be Lord of Winterfell, and explaining WHY, amounts to filling his head with prejudice.  It's a basic explanation to your children of some simple facts.

As to your concern that she set out to poison Robb agasint Jon, their relationship is a close one so I think your accusation is misplaced.  They both know and understand Cat's problem with Jon's position at Winterfell and it affects their relationship not a jot.

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10 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't mean to intrude into your debate but how is Cat telling her young children that the boy being raised alongside them is not their trueborn brother or that, as he is approximately Robb's age, telling Robb that he not Jon will be Lord of Winterfell, and explaining WHY, amounts to filling his head with prejudice.  It's a basic explanation to your children of some simple facts.

It's suggesting he would even try because he is a bastard.

In the quote it mentions Jon has said it a hundred times before and Robb hasn't reacted, as he shouldn't because it was all a game. All of a sudden he reacts as if Jon actually means it. And Robb has got that idea from Catelyn.

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21 minutes ago, Makk said:

It's suggesting he would even try because he is a bastard.

In the quote it mentions Jon has said it a hundred times before and Robb hasn't reacted, as he shouldn't because it was all a game. All of a sudden he reacts as if Jon actually means it. And Robb has got that idea from Catelyn.

Not really. Catelyn explaining that Jon is a bastard and not a full-blood sibling and that he can't inherit Winterfell isn't the same as trying to poison Robb against him. What Catelyn told Robb was the truth. Presumably, Robb asked his mother why Jon's name was Snow or why she treated him differently. If she just wanted to stop them spending time with each other she could have just kept Robb away.

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20 minutes ago, Makk said:

It's suggesting he would even try because he is a bastard.

In the quote it mentions Jon has said it a hundred times before and Robb hasn't reacted, as he shouldn't because it was all a game. All of a sudden he reacts as if Jon actually means it. And Robb has got that idea from Catelyn.

I'm not sure I follow.  As Children Robb and Jon play together constantly - evidence that evul Cat isn't perhaps ruining Jon's life every waking moment - and as children do they play at being King of the Castle or whatever analogue.  Except in this case Robb really will be "King of the Castle" as in Lord Of Winterfell and Jon won't.

All you seem to be describing to me is both Robb and Jon becoming old enough to understand the difference in their status and a childhood incident in which Robb shared this newly understood knowledge with Jon.  This is fact not prejudice or mistreatment, Jon has to understand at some point that he is a bastard and different to the other Stark children and this isn't some heinous mistreatment on Cat's part.  I certainly see no attempt to make Robb think that Jon will attempt to steal his rightful inheritance if that is what you are implying.  That seems fanciful.

Let me ask you: if in Jon's memory Robb's words had been "my Lord father" rather than "my Lady mother" would you react in the same way and make the same accusations?

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