The result of the wight's capture strategy

[3sm1r]

Let's do a brief summary of what they accomplished with a plan that almost all of us already considered dumb last week.

They have been very lucky and (with two deus ex machina) they "just" gave a dragon to the NK.
In the most probable case they would have also lost Jon Snow. Can you imagine someone who goes to Sansa and say:
"we lost Jon Snow, the King of the North"
"did Daenerys kill him?"
"No, he went beyond the wall to capture a wight" (???!)

On the other side, the positive thing is that they captured a wight, which is basically nothing since the fact that they can show an un-dead does not necessarily mean that there are thousands of them on the other side of the wall.

Who's in charge here?

[falcotron]

Why is this a spoiler for the 706 discussion forum? Is there something here from a leak that hasn't happened yet by episode 706?

[3sm1r]

13 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Why is this a spoiler for the 706 discussion forum? Is there something here from a leak that hasn't happened yet by episode 706?

Thank you, my mistake. I have just edited it.

[Armand Gargalen]

I am developing a crackpot theory about how Tyrion has been under the NK´s telepathic control since he pissed off the Wall in Season 1.

First, he helped the Lannisters defeat Stannis, a R´ohollor worshiper.

When the Lannisters had but won the Wot5K, he killed Tywin, who being an able administrator and strategist would have been a great asset in the war against the WW´s.

He then deserts the Lannisters and craftily infiltrates the dragon chick´s camp. He worms his way up through vile bootlicking until  he becomes Hand of the Queen.

When the Dragon Queen arrives to Westeros with a huge superiority which would have won the war against Cersei in a single day, he, using contrived humanitarian reasons, convinces her to  go into a long term war. He then devises a horrible strategy that would even out the playfield.

Once the Lannisters lay defeated a second time, he once again suggests the most horrible plan ever. All this time, he has been implanting suggestions into Danerys´mind about how adorable Jon Snow is.

When the stupid plan obviously backfires, he even uses reverse psychology, telling Daenerys not to go to the rescue when it is quite obvious she would do exactly the opposite of what she is advised.

On the other side of the Wall, the NK has also been working hard. He knows neither he not his army can not cross the Wall, so he sets his plan into motion to capture a dragon who can ferry the army over it.

First he starts by scaring off the wildlings, pushing them to attack the Wall. He also uses a great opportunity to strike the Watch at the Fist of the First Men, putting fear in their hearts. 

Once LC Mormont is dead and a moron rules the Watch (and later the whole North,could it get any better?), he proceeds to bid his time, rounding up the surviving wildlings to swell his numbers.

Finally, once his human agent has set the ambush, he lures the Wight Hunting Party with a fake scouting gang. He keeps a wight alive, who will give the WHP just enough trouble so they won´t have time to run to Eastwatch. He traps them into a lake, and waits for the time it takes a rave to fly half the world plus the time it takes a dragon to fly the same distance before attacking. 

When the Dragon Chick is around, he uses his magical spear to kill a dragon and, alas, we have a wight dragon, ready to serve.

It is just a shame that the guy is so damned arrogant he did not aim at Drogon when it was stationary in fornt of him,and decided to show off his accuracy. I am sure his arrogance will be the downfall of him, and our humbles heroes will eventually kick his ass and release Tyrion form his magical thralldom.

[3sm1r]

6 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I am developing a crackpot theory about how Tyrion has been under the NK´s telepathic control since he pissed off the Wall in Season 1.

First, he helped the Lannisters defeat Stannis, a R´ohollor worshiper.

When the Lannisters had but won the Wot5K, he killed Tywin, who being an able administrator and strategist would have been a great asset in the war against the WW´s.

He then deserts the Lannisters and craftily infiltrates the dragon chick´s camp. He worms his way up through vile bootlicking until  he becomes Hand of the Queen.

When the Dragon Queen arrives to Westeros with a huge superiority which would have won the war against Cersei in a single day, he, using contrived humanitarian reasons, convinces her to  go into a long term war. He then devises a horrible strategy that would even out the playfield.

Once the Lannisters lay defeated a second time, he once again suggests the most horrible plan ever. All this time, he has been implanting suggestions into Danerys´mind about how adorable Jon Snow is.

When the stupid plan obviously backfires, he even uses reverse psychology, telling Daenerys not to go to the rescue when it is quite obvious she would do exactly the opposite of what she is advised.

On the other side of the Wall, the NK has also been working hard. He knows neither he not his army can not cross the Wall, so he sets his plan into motion to capture a dragon who can ferry the army over it.

First he starts by scaring off the wildlings, pushing them to attack the Wall. He also uses a great opportunity to strike the Watch at the Fist of the First Men, putting fear in their hearts. 

Once LC Mormont is dead and a moron rules the Watch (and later the whole North,could it get any better?), he proceeds to bid his time, rounding up the surviving wildlings to swell his numbers.

Finally, once his human agent has set the ambush, he lures the Wight Hunting Party with a fake scouting gang. He keeps a wight alive, who will give the WHP just enough trouble so they won´t have time to run to Eastwatch. He traps them into a lake, and waits for the time it takes a rave to fly half the world plus the time it takes a dragon to fly the same distance before attacking. 

When the Dragon Chick is around, he uses his magical spear to kill a dragon and, alas, we have a wight dragon, ready to serve.

It is just a shame that the guy is so damned arrogant he did not aim at Drogon when it was stationary in fornt of him,and decided to show off his accuracy. I am sure his arrogance will be the downfall of him, and our humbles heroes will eventually kick his ass and release Tyrion form his magical thralldom.

But if this is the case, how do you explain the compassion he shows for his brother? If his mind was controlled he shouldn't care about Jaime. The same is true for the two dudes that were about to be burnt.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

This is honestly some of the worst writing I've seen. Let's say they successfully capture a wight with no casualties and bring it to Cersei. The only thing that would achieve is make Cersei understand that she is bargaining from a position of power. You see, if wights and WW are not real, Dany can use her army at any time to destroy Cersei. But if they are real, they need to be stopped or everyone will die. That means that if WW are real, Cersei's position is actually stronger, not weaker. Any deal Dany will be able to make with the wight evidence will actually be worse for Dany than without wight evidence.

 

[Armand Gargalen]

21 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

But if this is the case, how do you explain the compassion he shows for his brother? If his mind was controlled he shouldn't care about Jaime. The same is true for the two dudes that were about to be burnt.

I could just explain it by saying that he is faking it to appear more human in the eyes of Daenerys.

[3sm1r]

30 minutes ago, WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive said:

This is honestly some of the worst writing I've seen. Let's say they successfully capture a wight with no casualties and bring it to Cersei. The only thing that would achieve is make Cersei understand that she is bargaining from a position of power. You see, if wights and WW are not real, Dany can use her army at any time to destroy Cersei. But if they are real, they need to be stopped or everyone will die. That means that if WW are real, Cersei's position is actually stronger, not weaker. Any deal Dany will be able to make with the wight evidence will actually be worse for Dany than without wight evidence.

Also, it's pretty difficult to imagine what kind of deal could satisfy both, since Daenerys' goal is simply to sit in the iron throne. Which agreement can they possibly achieve?
 

28 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I could just explain it by saying that he is faking it to appear more human in the eyes of Daenerys.

It's an interesting theory but I'm not convinced: Tyrion was talking by himself while Jamie was trying to attack Daenerys. Maybe the NK controls him only in particular moments?

[Armand Gargalen]

22 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

 

It's an interesting theory but I'm not convinced: Tyrion was talking by himself while Jamie was trying to attack Daenerys. Maybe the NK controls him only in particular moments?

He was still in front of the Dothraki. If he had acted suspiciously, they may have informed Dany. Also, he was concerned about Jaime being burnt by the Dragon, because the thought he would make a fantastic looking wight withe gold hand and stuff.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

They should have just flown the dragons to the red keep and burned it to the ground.  

[Lady Noble]

I think the Wight sub plot had to happen and Dany summed it up when she told Jon "You have to see to understand" or something along those lines. I mean, as views we know what's up, but no one else has our viewpoint. I'm just paralleling it to September 11. I was in school and no one believed it happened. It wasn't even announced over the PA. We went with gym class. 

I also think the NK was waiting. Just straight up waiting for the perfect opportunity to get a dragon. He knows shit. He's magical. I think he knew dragons were out and about South of the Wall and he was just waiting for the opportunity to kill one North of it. Kind of explains why all of the WW business is happening now.

I think everyone in Westeros (except for Cersei, lol) is going to follow Dany as a result of this capture. As a result I think everyone will leave Cersei in KL to fight the true fight (or whatever, lol) and Cersei will be left to rule an empty kingdom that will be taken right from her because everyone will hate her more than they already do if she does F all to help. This is what I tell myself, however. I need the dragon's death to be worth it, lol. i'm still sad over it.

[3sm1r]

55 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

They should have just flown the dragons to the red keep and burned it to the ground.  

I don't know, maybe they have other ballistas.

 

45 minutes ago, Lady Noble said:

I think the Wight sub plot had to happen and Dany summed it up when she told Jon "You have to see to understand" or something along those lines. I mean, as views we know what's up, but no one else has our viewpoint. I'm just paralleling it to September 11. I was in school and no one believed it happened. It wasn't even announced over the PA. We went with gym class. 

To see is surely important, but was it worth a dragon? And Jon's life?

[Lady Noble]

2 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

I don't know, maybe they have other ballistas.

 

To see is surely important, but was it worth a dragon? And Jon's life?

From a viewer's perspective, it killed me to see a dragon die and I'm currently writing a fan fiction in which it doesn't, lol. I refuse to accept that story line as final. But I think it happened to show Dany isn't invincible. So no, I don't think it was worth it, but I think it had to happen. 

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

When did the Night King become Lamar Latrell?

 

 

[Tagganaro]

4 hours ago, Lady Noble said:

I think the Wight sub plot had to happen and Dany summed it up when she told Jon "You have to see to understand" or something along those lines. I mean, as views we know what's up, but no one else has our viewpoint. I'm just paralleling it to September 11. I was in school and no one believed it happened. It wasn't even announced over the PA. We went with gym class. 

I also think the NK was waiting. Just straight up waiting for the perfect opportunity to get a dragon. He knows shit. He's magical. I think he knew dragons were out and about South of the Wall and he was just waiting for the opportunity to kill one North of it. Kind of explains why all of the WW business is happening now.

I think everyone in Westeros (except for Cersei, lol) is going to follow Dany as a result of this capture. As a result I think everyone will leave Cersei in KL to fight the true fight (or whatever, lol) and Cersei will be left to rule an empty kingdom that will be taken right from her because everyone will hate her more than they already do if she does F all to help. This is what I tell myself, however. I need the dragon's death to be worth it, lol. i'm still sad over it.

That's sort of my fan-created theory for why the Night King had Jon and co. dead to rights and just waited doing nothing- he was waiting for more reinforcements to show up so he could turn more to his side.  I really wish when the show had shown the Night King walking up to get the spear they had him do a quick smirk or something to show he was happy that the dragon showed up.

We've been having this argument all week on here lol about how stupid the wight capture plan was, but at the same time how something like it was sort of necessary.  You needed proof of a wight, you needed Dany to see them and be converted, and you needed the White Walkers to get control of a dragon.  So as inelegant as the plan was, I think there was a base amount of logic behind having this stupid plan be a part of the show.  

3 hours ago, 3sm1r said:

I don't know, maybe they have other ballistas.

 

To see is surely important, but was it worth a dragon? And Jon's life?

Probably not lol but having said that, all the dragons were not going to survive the battle against the White Walkers, whether it took place North or South of the Wall.  Heck Bronn and a ballista were able to wound Drogon- Night King operating on an entirely different level and it's necessary for the conflict to have stakes that the dragons are not invincible.  

As far as Jon's life, doesn't seem like he's in danger due to Rhllor/plot armor of ever dying unless he gets dismembered lol.

[Dragonandwolf]

28 minutes ago, Lady Noble said:

From a viewer's perspective, it killed me to see a dragon die and I'm currently writing a fan fiction in which it doesn't, lol. I refuse to accept that story line as final. But I think it happened to show Dany isn't invincible. So no, I don't think it was worth it, but I think it had to happen. 

Hi!

I totally feel the same.

I dont think it was worth to have lost a dragon, I dont think Cersei would care about the dead army, even if she sees one.

Oh could you please your fic when its done, Im so sad about Viserion, I wish they hadn´t done that.

 

 

[LucyMormont]

5 hours ago, Lady Noble said:

I think the Wight sub plot had to happen and Dany summed it up when she told Jon "You have to see to understand" or something along those lines. I mean, as views we know what's up, but no one else has our viewpoint. I'm just paralleling it to September 11. I was in school and no one believed it happened. It wasn't even announced over the PA. We went with gym class. 

I also think the NK was waiting. Just straight up waiting for the perfect opportunity to get a dragon. He knows shit. He's magical. I think he knew dragons were out and about South of the Wall and he was just waiting for the opportunity to kill one North of it. Kind of explains why all of the WW business is happening now.

I think everyone in Westeros (except for Cersei, lol) is going to follow Dany as a result of this capture. As a result I think everyone will leave Cersei in KL to fight the true fight (or whatever, lol) and Cersei will be left to rule an empty kingdom that will be taken right from her because everyone will hate her more than they already do if she does F all to help. This is what I tell myself, however. I need the dragon's death to be worth it, lol. i'm still sad over it.

That is the only possible basis for this whole plotline. Westeros  is sinked in a kind of stupor, the battle for the dawn is already lost if the people don't wake up, and everything   Jon tried to do to wake them up, was in vain. Not even his people in the north understood what is happening, if they did they wouldn't be questioning him because he left to search for allies and weapons, yet they are, because "you have to see to know", as Danaerys said, and none of them saw, so they have to rely only on his word and on the word of some wildlings they don't particularly trust... and although they may trust him, they don't have a clue about the life extinction dimension of what they are facing. 

So yes, now that Dani is in and they can show  a wight, not just to Cersei but to Jaime and other lords there, it doesn't matter what Cersei will do, anyone with a working brain cell will recognize the danger for what it is.

[3sm1r]

15 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

So yes, now that Dani is in and they can show  a wight, not just to Cersei but to Jaime and other lords there, it doesn't matter what Cersei will do, anyone with a working brain cell will recognize the danger for what it is.

I have only one problem with this: the fact that there are wights does not imply that their number is large enough to represent a menace. If they showed me a direwolf I would not automatically assume that in the North there are thousands of them. And I would be right. 

[Sir Dingleberry]

38 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

So yes, now that Dani is in and they can show  a wight, not just to Cersei but to Jaime and other lords there, it doesn't matter what Cersei will do, anyone with a working brain cell will recognize the danger for what it is.

Agree with this but to be fair, what lords are left that even matter at this point? Stormlands, Reach, Dorne, and Crownlands have all been written off at this point.  The only convincing in King's landing is literally Cersei and she doesn't have an army. So, like I agree this had to happen and the show will create some ridiculous outcome to make it all worth it but in reality convincing Cersei will serve no purpose if we look at everything that has happened so far this season.

[falcotron]

33 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

The only convincing in King's landing is literally Cersei and she doesn't have an army

She has gold, an Iron Bank drooling over the idea of giving her more gold, and an envoy off talking to the Golden Company, so she will have an army as soon as she wants one.

If she's smart, she'll hold off on hiring that army. Then she can agree to the armistice, send whatever straggling remnants of an army she has left to fight alongside Dany and Jon, and then hire the GC to take Dragonstone and then Winterfell while everyone's busy at the Wall.

But she'll probably want to do something more mustache-twirly than smart. After all, if she were a man like Tywin, she could grow and twirl a mustache, but she can't, and that's not fair.