DarkBastard

Plot Holes - Why...Maybe.

54 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Plot holes, just a few off the top of my bald head:

Major:

1) Have the Unsullied forgotten how to march? It is not far from where they are to where Dany is, both in south.

2) Have the Dornish forgotten how to march? Same.

3) In what freakin' GRRM world, or historical one, would Dany have just left King's Landing instead of laying siege.

4) How did Jamie go so far under water and then go so far in heavy metal armor?

Minor:

1) Jon comes to the wall on a horse, freezing in wet clothes. What do they do? Take him to a ship offshore before they take his clothes off. WTF!

2) Really CONVENIENT that killing one WW killed all but one wight.

3) Throwing a stone does not mean ice will support a wight, or much else.

4) Being bit by wight bear should turn you, but it didn't.

5) How dumb are Sansa and Arya - not this dumb and all they have is time to think. I don't think LF would outdo them by so much.

6) Why were all Jamie's troops just hanging out beyond the safety of KL, wouldn't they go inside, where they live?

And more...

1) Sure, the Unsullied can march across 1000 miles of the enemy's home turf, without supplies, with the enemy able to harass them the entire way. How is that a plot hole? That's just stating Jaime's plan.

2) Where's the plot hole here? Are you suggesting that the Dornish could march to KL faster than they could sail, so the plan to use the ships was stupid? Or are you suggesting that their armies should march and attack KL now, when the only people who wanted to attack KL are dead or captured, and the rest of the Dornish probably just want to stay out of the war the same way Doran did? Either way, you being wrong is not a plot hole.

3) I know the show makes this easy to forget, but laying siege generally takes months, and requires tying up a large chunk of your army. If she wants to lay siege, she can come back and do it any time she wants, in a matter of days; meanwhile, she retains the mobility advantage. In fact, that's the primary difference between the GRRM Westeros and real medieval England: when battles are decided by dragons, castlecraft and siegecraft are no longer the key to warfare, which is why all of their wars take less than 1/10th as long as their historical equivalents. What you're suggesting is that for Team Dany to understand that key basic strategic fact is a plot hole.

4) How did Jaime go so far under water in metal armor? Because metal armor makes you sink faster, not slower. This seems like the opposite of a plot hole. What most people are asking is why Jaime didn't go even farther under water, too far for Bronn to rescue him.

4) Being bitten has never transformed anyone before. Are you sure you've been watching Game of Thrones, and not The Walking Dead?

6) They were marching toward KL, guarding a long supply train full of gold and food. You think they should have just abandoned all that gold and food as soon as the very head of the train reached the gates, instead of guarding it for the remaining days it would take to finish transporting it? I mean, I guess they could have, but I'm pretty sure Tarly would have executed them all for their laziness, with good reason.

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I agree with the OP; D&D are certainly not incompetent and can spin an interesting story, though it will never be nuanced like the books nor could it be. Can't say how many show-only people I've still seen asking online, "Who's Rhaegar again? Have we seen him before?" 

That said, where D&D screwed up was pacing in this season - 7 freaking episodes for all this content? Budgets be damned, HBO is not hurting for money. The current season has the same effect as the second and last season of Rome. Could have been great but everything is rushed toward the endgame. Why? Fuck all if I know. There are many things that I've just said, "Ok, fine" to, e.g. Dany and Jon's relationship. If we're all meant to perceive some innate understanding of each other that makes them have an attraction, happy to go with it! By contrast, the bullshit between Jon and Sansa feels dumb and forced because it is exactly that. Nothing to see there, folks. One day, I'd like to understand why D&D / HBO felt the need to condense the last two seasons of a great show. Maybe earlier on, we could have lingered less on Ros' tits and explored characters who I don't doubt are important for the endgame.

Edited by Sand11751

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14 hours ago, Sand11751 said:

I agree with the OP; D&D are certainly not incompetent and can spin an interesting story, though it will never be nuanced like the books nor could it be. Can't say how many show-only people I've still seen asking online, "Who's Rhaegar again? Have we seen him before?" 

That said, where D&D screwed up was pacing in this season - 7 freaking episodes for all this content? Budgets be damned, HBO is not hurting for money. The current season has the same effect as the second and last season of Rome. Could have been great but everything is rushed toward the endgame. Why? Fuck all if I know. There are many things that I've just said, "Ok, fine" to, e.g. Dany and Jon's relationship. If we're all meant to perceive some innate understanding of each other that makes them have an attraction, happy to go with it! By contrast, the bullshit between Jon and Sansa feels dumb and forced because it is exactly that. Nothing to see there, folks. One day, I'd like to understand why D&D / HBO felt the need to condense the last two seasons of a great show. Maybe earlier on, we could have lingered less on Ros' tits and explored characters who I don't doubt are important for the endgame.

I agree.  I will admit that I am enjoying Arys giving Sansa a ration of shit for all her twatiness over the years...even if it is a play for Littlefinger in the end.  Int he last two episodes Arya has said all the shit I was thinking over the first five seasons regarding Sansa!

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14 hours ago, Sand11751 said:

Can't say how many show-only people I've still seen asking online, "Who's Rhaegar again? Have we seen him before?" 

This is the world I live in every Monday morning after a new GoT episode.  So many questions I have to answer about why X happened or why Y did something.  

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Just now, Lurid Jester said:

This is the world I live in every Monday morning after a new GoT episode.  So many questions I have to answer about why X happened or why Y did something.  

So true, I had to come here to find folks who really understand the background and lore (even that is a struggle at times here lol)

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On 8/21/2017 at 5:00 PM, falcotron said:

1) Sure, the Unsullied can march across 1000 miles of the enemy's home turf, without supplies, with the enemy able to harass them the entire way. How is that a plot hole? That's just stating Jaime's plan.

2) Where's the plot hole here? Are you suggesting that the Dornish could march to KL faster than they could sail, so the plan to use the ships was stupid? Or are you suggesting that their armies should march and attack KL now, when the only people who wanted to attack KL are dead or captured, and the rest of the Dornish probably just want to stay out of the war the same way Doran did? Either way, you being wrong is not a plot hole.

3) I know the show makes this easy to forget, but laying siege generally takes months, and requires tying up a large chunk of your army. If she wants to lay siege, she can come back and do it any time she wants, in a matter of days; meanwhile, she retains the mobility advantage. In fact, that's the primary difference between the GRRM Westeros and real medieval England: when battles are decided by dragons, castlecraft and siegecraft are no longer the key to warfare, which is why all of their wars take less than 1/10th as long as their historical equivalents. What you're suggesting is that for Team Dany to understand that key basic strategic fact is a plot hole.

4) How did Jaime go so far under water in metal armor? Because metal armor makes you sink faster, not slower. This seems like the opposite of a plot hole. What most people are asking is why Jaime didn't go even farther under water, too far for Bronn to rescue him.

4) Being bitten has never transformed anyone before. Are you sure you've been watching Game of Thrones, and not The Walking Dead?

6) They were marching toward KL, guarding a long supply train full of gold and food. You think they should have just abandoned all that gold and food as soon as the very head of the train reached the gates, instead of guarding it for the remaining days it would take to finish transporting it? I mean, I guess they could have, but I'm pretty sure Tarly would have executed them all for their laziness, with good reason.

I am suggesting they dealt with none of these ideas, yours or mine. They just are going to have the Dornish Army never arrive and the Unsullied magically show up at KL tonight. I won't deal with each of your points but most are disingenuous or misguided.

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Most of the fault for the plot holes and bad writing can be blamed on the show's writers.  They started moving away from the text in Season 1, when they killed Mago just to give Jason Momoa a good send off.  That's the kind of amateur crap that ruins a good story.  Season 2 started off kiling Silver (Dany's silver horse) and Rakharo.  The gap between George and D&D have gotten wider and wider.  Even seemingly minor changes to the characters with Catelyn (leaving out her sharp as a razor blade line, "it should have been you") and Sansa (writing out the part where she betrayed Ned's escape plans to Cersei).  It's shit like that that slowly ruined the story.  They should have stayed faithful to how George Martin wrote the characters instead of making up their own. 

I remember watching the scene in King's Landing between Jaime and Tyrion, right before the Red Viper fought Gregor.  That story with cousin Orson and his beetles.  It was awful to waste screen time on something like that.  I would take the Sand Snake attack on Myrcella over cousin Orson's story any day.  So you waste time on Roz, cousin Orson, and then you complain there's not enough time to do Quentyn Martell, Belwas, Aegon, and Stoneheart.  It's just very bad decisions made by the production team and it is all coming back to haunt the show now that the end is nearing. 

This show will remain popular, but it will fade very soon after the final episode.  Good shows are remembered, cherished, and attain timeless appeal because it has a good story with great characters.  They become classics because they have tight plots, well-developed characters, and good stories.  They're character-driven, not event-driven. You can't retroactively go back and bring Viserion, Barristan, and Stannis back to life.  I know that.  But at least try to have a tight plot and good continuity.

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12 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

I am suggesting they dealt with none of these ideas, yours or mine. They just are going to have the Dornish Army never arrive and the Unsullied magically show up at KL tonight. I won't deal with each of your points but most are disingenuous or misguided.

There's nothing disingenuous here. People are looking so hard for things to call plot holes that they're abandoning basic common sense to do so. People in metal armor sinking faster is not a plot hole, it's the way reality actually works.

And I don't even see the point. Do you get a bonus if you counted 17 plot holes and Linda only counted 6?

And meanwhile, there's nothing "magical" about the Dornish army not arriving, or the Unsullied arriving by taking a couple months to do so. Both are not only perfectly plausible, but actually the most likely things you should expect given what we've seen.

Sure, the show didn't "deal with the issue" of the fact that you can imagine some other possibility and then call that other possibility ridiculous, but that's not a plot hole. It's not a plot hole that season 1 didn't tell us whether Robert crossed the Riverlands by the obvious Kingsroad route, the perfectly plausible eastern route, or the ridiculous route of walking through the marshes and fording the Green Fork. Even though they didn't deal with the issue, or prove to us that Robert didn't ford the Green Fork, that doesn't give you license to assume he forded the Greek fork and then call the show ridiculous because that would be ridiculous.

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27 minutes ago, falcotron said:

There's nothing disingenuous here. People are looking so hard for things to call plot holes that they're abandoning basic common sense to do so. People in metal armor sinking faster is not a plot hole, it's the way reality actually works.

And I don't even see the point. Do you get a bonus if you counted 17 plot holes and Linda only counted 6?

And meanwhile, there's nothing "magical" about the Dornish army not arriving, or the Unsullied arriving by taking a couple months to do so. Both are not only perfectly plausible, but actually the most likely things you should expect given what we've seen.

Sure, the show didn't "deal with the issue" of the fact that you can imagine some other possibility and then call that other possibility ridiculous, but that's not a plot hole. It's not a plot hole that season 1 didn't tell us whether Robert crossed the Riverlands by the obvious Kingsroad route, the perfectly plausible eastern route, or the ridiculous route of walking through the marshes and fording the Green Fork. Even though they didn't deal with the issue, or prove to us that Robert didn't ford the Green Fork, that doesn't give you license to assume he forded the Greek fork and then call the show ridiculous because that would be ridiculous.

OK, so the Unsullied who are duty bound to Dany to do ANYTHING for her will be worried about a march through enemy territory? Really? That itself would be a stupid plot hole.

So, the Dornish queen and the Sand Snakes are killed by Cersei and their army is just going to say "oh well, who wants to march through enemy territory". Not a freakin' chance.

GRRM has used sieges across all of the books and the idea that one is too hard just shocks me. What better way to bringKL to kneel than a few weeks of daily dragon attacks? No way GRRM writes it this way, and historically a stupid war strategy, go read some John Keegan.

It is a plot hole if the story does not make sense in light of the prior story, the historical precedent set by the books and the earlier seasons, and the ongoing storyline. The idea that armies have somehow just wimped out in Westeros where a huge percentage of the population has died since this started seems crazy to me. It makes the story inconsistent and unbelievable.

 

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1 hour ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

It is a plot hole if the story does not make sense in light of the prior story, the historical precedent set by the books and the earlier seasons, and the ongoing storyline. The idea that armies have somehow just wimped out in Westeros where a huge percentage of the population has died since this started seems crazy to me. It makes the story inconsistent and unbelievable.

Correct.  The story on the show is inconsistent and unbelievable.  It doesn't build upon previous events in many cases.  Although sometimes they do a decent job of tying the past to the present.  Like Sansa's cowardice in season 1.  I just hope that plot leads to something interesting.

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2 hours ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

OK, so the Unsullied who are duty bound to Dany to do ANYTHING for her will be worried about a march through enemy territory? Really? That itself would be a stupid plot hole.

I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you think you're arguing for while still trying to assume you're not a troll.

You claim that it's a plot hole that the Unsullied are going to end up near King's Landing. And then you provide an argument that the Unsullied should end up near King's Landing and anything else would be unrealistic. This is exactly the same as being baffled that someone in heavy armor sinks deeper. When things happen so reliably realistically that you can predict them in advance and argue why it's the only thing that makes sense, that's the exact opposite of a plot hole.

And yes, of course you're right here. While it takes time and effort to fight through enemy territory, the only alternatives are to give up and starve to death, or turn into bandits. So they're going to march through the West anyway, and in a few weeks or months, they're going to arrive at King's Landing, or at least somewhere on the Blackwater. And that will not be a plot hole, for exactly the reasons you just gave.

2 hours ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

So, the Dornish queen and the Sand Snakes are killed by Cersei and their army is just going to say "oh well, who wants to march through enemy territory". Not a freakin' chance.

Here, I don't even get how you think this is the argument. You seem to be mixing up separate issues. There's no enemy territory for the Dornish to march through to get through Dorne, because Dorne is Dornish. That isn't the slightest bit relevant to anything.

The reason the Dornish army are not going to march anywhere is that they're not a post-Napoleonic national standing army, they're a bunch of medieval men-at-arms and smallfolk who work the fields until the leader they've sworn an oath to demands they march somewhere. If that leader is dead, and there's nobody making that demand, they go home and work the fields again.

At least there I can kind of figure out what I think you were trying to argue. Your last point, I don't even get what you think is a stupid war strategy, much less what it has to do with any of my points, so I can't meaningfully respond.

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6 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I'm having a hard time trying to understand what you think you're arguing for while still trying to assume you're not a troll.

You claim that it's a plot hole that the Unsullied are going to end up near King's Landing. And then you provide an argument that the Unsullied should end up near King's Landing and anything else would be unrealistic. This is exactly the same as being baffled that someone in heavy armor sinks deeper. When things happen so reliably realistically that you can predict them in advance and argue why it's the only thing that makes sense, that's the exact opposite of a plot hole.

And yes, of course you're right here. While it takes time and effort to fight through enemy territory, the only alternatives are to give up and starve to death, or turn into bandits. So they're going to march through the West anyway, and in a few weeks or months, they're going to arrive at King's Landing, or at least somewhere on the Blackwater. And that will not be a plot hole, for exactly the reasons you just gave.

Here, I don't even get how you think this is the argument. You seem to be mixing up separate issues. There's no enemy territory for the Dornish to march through to get through Dorne, because Dorne is Dornish. That isn't the slightest bit relevant to anything.

The reason the Dornish army are not going to march anywhere is that they're not a post-Napoleonic national standing army, they're a bunch of medieval men-at-arms and smallfolk who work the fields until the leader they've sworn an oath to demands they march somewhere. If that leader is dead, and there's nobody making that demand, they go home and work the fields again.

At least there I can kind of figure out what I think you were trying to argue. Your last point, I don't even get what you think is a stupid war strategy, much less what it has to do with any of my points, so I can't meaningfully respond.

You are a troll. Either you don't understand plot and have never read the books, or you are simply stupid. Quit trolling. Move along.

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4 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

You are a troll. Either you don't understand plot and have never read the books, or you are simply stupid. Quit trolling. Move along.

This is your response to me saying I'm trying to assume you're not a troll.

Very good. You are indeed made of rubber rather than glue, and that is an invincible defense to anything, especially if you call bomb-bomb-no-erasies.

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4 minutes ago, falcotron said:

This is your response to me saying I'm trying to assume you're not a troll.

Very good. You are indeed made of rubber rather than glue, and that is an invincible defense to anything, especially if you call bomb-bomb-no-erasies.

I don't even understand what you are saying, I am not 12. You are being intentionally obtuse and you know it. Just as I predicted, the Unsullied never speak to Dany on the show, never know what is happening in the rest of Westeros, and magically show up at KL right on time. That is great writing. And the Dornish Army? I guess D and D forgot they existed.

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