U.S. Politics: A Request to Address the Cleft on the Left

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:10 AM, Inigima said:

Progressive and liberal are more or less synonymous. After decades of Republicans demonizing the word "liberal" it was replaced with "progressive" as an attempt at rebranding. It hasn't worked very well, of course, because it's a stupid idea.

And this is precisely the reason I will not call myself "progressive" and kind of disdain the word. I'm pretty much like, "Oh, you don't like liberals conservative man?  Let me exercise my free speech rights. Here's my middle finger."

[GAROVORKIN]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And none of this has anything to do with Trump or "The Party of Business". Republicans love to point out their super awesome growth enhancing policies. But, when it comes down too it, they suck at it. The reality doesn't meet the Republican rhetoric. And Democrats should point this out.

The problem is that voters( if  contented ) won't see it that way. The only way they will see it the democrat's  way  is if he economy turns sour.

 

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:20 AM, GAROVORKIN said:

The problem is that voters( if  contented ) won't see it that way. The only way they will see it the democrat's  way  is if he economy turns sour.

Then the Democrats should explain shit to the voters. Long term Trump's policies which include tax cuts for the very wealthy, nonsense on foreign trade, the idiotic Financial Bomb Act by Jeb Hensarling, nonsense on healthcare isn't in the interest of the vast majority of people, and certainly not in the interest of the Democratic base.

And Trump shouldn't be allowed to claim credit for trends that started under Obama.

The thing is that if Trump were smart he could have done some really positive things on the economy. But he is an incompetent idiot. After all, the nitwit thinks he invented the term "priming the pump". So much for super duper business guy being good on economic matters.

[Seli]

1 hour ago, GAROVORKIN said:

 

Back in April The Washington Post ran a piece   Democrats Self Inflicted Abortion Problems    This brings up one of the division inside party , DNC Chairman Tom Perez's unequal support for Abortion rights and unwillingness  to back Democrats that support the line could prove costly in terms of  party unity . Also there are voters who  there are  democratic voter who are less to vote  a prochoice democratic  and there probably lot them in places like the midwest , and the south which the democrats need in order to win .  This is probably not the only issue that the democrats are out of step on which could cost them much needed support.   Honestly I just don't think going  far to the left will helpful to the democrats comes election time. 

There is a problem with thinking that is a problem. At the end of the day the Democratic Party in the USA is the party of civil and human rights. I don't think they can stop protecting the rights of one part of the population without paying a heavy price.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Then the Democrats should explain shit to the voters. Long term Trump's policies which include tax cuts for the very wealthy, nonsense on foreign trade, the idiotic Financial Bomb Act by Jeb Hensarling, nonsense on healthcare isn't in the interest of the vast majority of people, and certainly not in the interest of the Democratic base.

And Trump shouldn't be allowed to claim credit for trends that started under Obama.

The thing is that if Trump were smart he could have done some really positive things on the economy. But he is an incompetent idiot. After all, the nitwit thinks he invented the term "priming the pump". So much for super duper business guy being good on economic matters.

I don't think Trump gives a shit about the US.  I think he sees his role as President as an opportunity to milk the Federal Government and his position for all it is worth.  It deals with his existing debt load and gives him leverage to worm his way into more businesses looking for golden parachutes.  This has been his MO for years.  He doesn't sell anything but himself.  For example look at what Trump is charging the Secret Service for the privilege of protecting his person:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-clubs-charge-60k-to-rent-carts-to-secret-service-as-agency-runs-out-of-money-2017-08-21

[DMC]

 

36 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Yeah, it's weird. It's like they think that by having Democrat candidates lean towards the center they will be able to lure slightly right of center Republicans into voting Democrat. 

Newsflash: That doesn't work! The centrist Republicans are gonna, guess what? Vote Republican!

So why not put forward a Democrat far enough to the left to bring out the people who have already shown that they'd rather sit at home rather than vote for the centrist candidate? Relying on people to come out and vote for your guy just because they're "not as bad as the other candidate" is not a winning strategy.

This is puerile logic.  Obama got the greatest turnout Dems can hope for.  Did he do it be veering far to the left?  Nope.  He also didn't do it by veering far to the center either.  He did it by inspiring people.  As I said, I really don't care what wing the 2020 candidate comes from.  I want that.  I want the 2004 DNC speech - which made his career and had me working for him by late 2006.

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Harris is not a progressive is the point I was making about her. If you see yourself as a centrist ready to move left, and think she seems great - maybe you can't have quite the perspective that someone already on the left would have. That's not meant to be a damning indictment of you, just...start listening to a wider range of people. Because a lot of the Americans I interact with on twitter, the ones you need to be convincing to be part of your party, are not impressed.

[...]

Unless I'm forgetting what progressive even means in US parlance, and it means just left of centrist like liberal seems to atm. My point is she is not of the genuine left, she's of the establishment and the center.

As I said above, I honestly don't care where she or anyone else is coming from.  Show me you can win, that's all I care about - far left, left, or center left.  

Can't help myself on one aspect though: "Because a lot of the Americans I interact with on twitter, the ones you need to be convincing to be part of your party, are not impressed."  Really?  I need to convince your twitter friends?  No, I don't think I do.

[GAROVORKIN]

2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Then the Democrats should explain shit to the voters. Long term Trump's policies which include tax cuts for the very wealthy, nonsense on foreign trade, the idiotic Financial Bomb Act by Jeb Hensarling, nonsense on healthcare isn't in the interest of the vast majority of people, and certainly not in the interest of the Democratic base.

And Trump shouldn't be allowed to claim credit for trends that started under Obama.

The thing is that if Trump were smart he could have done some really positive things on the economy. But he is an incompetent idiot. After all, the nitwit thinks he invented the term "priming the pump". So much for super duper business guy being good on economic matters.

Priming the pump is not Trump invention or even a Regan era one .  I suspect that is as old a Slogan "Two Chickens in every pot "  Trump used Legerdemain more effectively then the Democrats .  

The Democrats can talk until their blue in the face , If things are going well for  the voters economically,   the voters are not  going to listen to anything the Democrats  have to say.   It comes back to the notion of contented voters not wanting to rock the boat. 

 

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:32 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I don't think Trump gives a shit about the US.  I think he sees his role as President as an opportunity to milk the Federal Government and his position for all it is worth.  It deals with his existing debt load and gives him leverage to worm his way into more businesses looking for golden parachutes.  This has been his MO for years.  He doesn't sell anything but himself.  For example look at what Trump is charging the Secret Service for the privilege of protecting his person:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-clubs-charge-60k-to-rent-carts-to-secret-service-as-agency-runs-out-of-money-2017-08-21

I think this right Scott. But, I think, many people in this country bought into the idea of the  super awesome business/CEO guy being good on economic matters schtick.

Of course it’s nonsense. And Democrats need to disabuse people of that nonsense.

I don’t care if somebody made billions of dollars being a CEO or whatever. It’s quite possible that same person can still talk a bunch of nonsense.

The policy arguments and data are readily available these days. Nobody, nobody should buy into the “hey I’m CEO guy, I really know this stuff.” CEO/Business guy should made to explain exactly what model he is working in and what public data sources he’s using and not be allowed to rely on “trust me, I have sooper seekrit knowledge I gained from my awesome business experience!”.

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:42 AM, GAROVORKIN said:

.The Democrats can talk until their blue in the face , If things are going well for  the voters economically,   the voters are not  going to listen to anything the Democrats  have to say.   It comes back to the notion of contented voters not wanting to rock the boat. 

Well a couple of things. Certainly, Trump will never be able to live up to his pie in the sky promises. So that needs to be pointed out.

And why shouldn't voters listen to Democrats. Because the "Bush Boom" or the "Brownback Boom" worked out so well? Trump's policies are largely a rehash of the same old same old Republican Party supply side nonsense. And it is nonsense. Maybe, voters won't listen. But, Democrats should hammer that home.

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:42 AM, GAROVORKIN said:

Priming the pump is not Trump invention or even a Regan era one .  I suspect that is as old a Slogan "Two Chickens in every pot "  Trump used Legerdemain more effectively then the Democrats .  

The term is mainly associated with the 1930s and Keynes.

[GAROVORKIN]

18 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

The term is mainly associated with the 1930s and Keynes.

Not quite as old as Two chickens but pretty old none the less. 

[A True Kaniggit]

3 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

 

This is puerile logic.  Obama got the greatest turnout Dems can hope for.  Did he do it be veering far to the left?  Nope.  He also didn't do it by veering far to the center either.  He did it by inspiring people.  As I said, I really don't care what wing the 2020 candidate comes from.  I want that.  I want the 2004 DNC speech - which made his career and had me working for him by late 2006.

As I said above, I honestly don't care where she or anyone else is coming from.  Show me you can win, that's all I care about - far left, left, or center left.  

Can't help myself on one aspect though: "Because a lot of the Americans I interact with on twitter, the ones you need to be convincing to be part of your party, are not impressed."  Really?  I need to convince your twitter friends?  No, I don't think I do.

Ha. I actually had to look up this word. Learn something new everyday, right?

But about the rest of your post. In your reply to Karaddin you state you'll vote for any candidate that can win whether they be far left, left, or center left. Great, any leftist candidate has your vote as long as they will win. If more people held that view we would've won in 2016.  That's one vote for us. But in 2016 a great many voters showed by staying home that just beating the Republicans wasn't enough for them. They aren't willing to go out and vote for a candidate whose sole draw is "they are further left than the Republican". Do you really think another "just left of center candidate" is going to bring these people out in 2020?

 

[GAROVORKIN]

18 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well a couple of things. Certainly, Trump will never be able to live up to his pie in the sky promises. So that needs to be pointed out.

And why shouldn't voters listen to Democrats. Because the "Bush Boom" or the "Brownback Boom" worked out so well? Trump's policies are largely a rehash of the same old same old Republican Party supply side nonsense. And it is nonsense. Maybe, voters won't listen. But, Democrats should hammer that home.

Im not saying the Democrats shouldn't try to convince voter, thats what they're  supposed to do .

They might consider coming up with a better  slogan  then   "  We can do Better"  .  It's playing well with the comedians,   but not so well with potential voters.

[LongRider]

16 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

The term is mainly associated with the 1930s and Keynes.

IIRC Trump told the person interviewing him that he just coined the phrase "Priming the pump" when it popped out of his pie hole. 

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:50 AM, GAROVORKIN said:

Not quite as old as Two chickens but pretty old non the less. 

Yeah, but super awesome CEO/business guy thought he invented the term.

And super awesome business guy certainly didn’t catch the freshman level error Peter Navarro and Ross made.

They started with

Y = C + I + G+ EX – IM

They then simply crossed out IM (representing imports) and claimed higher Y (representing GDP).

But this is economics by accounting. You can’t do that. This is freshman level stuff and super awesome business guy let that paper get out.

The paper was rightly derided on both sides of the aisle.

Now normally, I wouldn’t probably be too hard on a politician on something like this. But, when their entire shtick is I really, really understand this stuff cause I’m a “bidness guy”, then they deserve a bit of ridicule.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

21 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think this right Scott. But, I think, many people in this country bought into the idea of the  super awesome business/CEO guy being good on economic matters schtick.

Of course it’s nonsense. And Democrats need to disabuse people of that nonsense.

I don’t care if somebody made billions of dollars being a CEO or whatever. It’s quite possible that same person can still talk a bunch of nonsense.

The policy arguments and data are readily available these days. Nobody, nobody should buy into the “hey I’m CEO guy, I really know this stuff.” CEO/Business guy should made to explain exactly what model he is working in and what public data sources he’s using and not be allowed to rely on “trust me, I have sooper seekrit knowledge I gained from my awesome business experience!”.

Quite clearly "running the government like a business" is not producing the results anticipated by those who buy that model.

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 7:28 AM, Seli said:

There is a problem with thinking that is a problem. At the end of the day the Democratic Party in the USA is the party of civil and human rights. I don't think they can stop protecting the rights of one part of the population without paying a heavy price.

I’ll put this way:

Bannon seems to be for some kind of weird Brogressive Herrenvolk Social Demcocray.

I’m interested in the Social Democracy stuff, but I want nothing to do with the Brogressive Herrenvolk part. It’s unethical and it’s immoral.

[GAROVORKIN]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, but super awesome CEO/business guy thought he invented the term.

And super awesome business guy certainly didn’t catch the freshman level error Peter Navarro and Ross made.

They started with

Y = C + I + G+ EX – IM

They then simply crossed out IM (representing imports) and claimed higher Y (representing GDP).

But this is economics by accounting. You can’t do that. This is freshman level stuff and super awesome business guy let that paper get out.

The paper was rightly derided on both sides of the aisle.

Now normally, I wouldn’t probably be too hard on a politician on something like this. But, when their entire shtick is I really, really understand this stuff cause I’m a “bidness guy”, then they deserve a bit of ridicule.

The way I look at it , If a politician promises you two chickens in every pot,  go out your hen house and make sure  all of your chickens are still there" 

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Ha. I actually had to look up this word. Learn something new everyday, right?

Knowledge is power!

 

15 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Great, any leftist candidate has your vote as long as they will win. If more people held that view we would've won in 2016.  That's one vote for us. But in 2016 a great many voters showed by staying home that just beating the Republicans wasn't enough for them. They aren't willing to go out and vote for a candidate whose sole draw is "they are further left than the Republican". Do you really think another "just left of center candidate" is going to bring these people out in 2020?

I'm not sure I agree with this premise.  In 2016 there were two fundamentally flawed candidates for the Democratic nomination.  The right one went on to the general, but that doesn't mean we can't have improvement in the next presidential cycle.  Further, I thought it was entirely clear I don't want "another 'just left of center candidate.'"  

I want someone how galvanizes turnout and ensures those on the fringes do not vote third party - because those are two of the three primary reasons Hillary lost (and the third - Obama-Trump voters - isn't something anyone can fix by championing a hypothetical candidate).  The best way I know how to do that is by getting people excited.  Whomever that is, I'll be behind, but it certainly remains to be seen.

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/22/2017 at 8:04 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Quite clearly "running the government like a business" is not producing the results anticipated by those who buy that model.

Yeah a few years back Carly Fiorina was arguing with Paul Krugman.

Fiorina’s basic shtick was “my awesome business experience!”, which you know is subject to a large degree of dispute, while at least Krugman had a model he was working in. Maybe you don’t buy the basic IS/LM model he’s been using since 2008, but at least it’s a model that is fairly well understood and doesn’t rely on “my super awesome (but secret) bidness experience!!”