Samwell_Tarly

Viserion....

122 posts in this topic

I think it's pretty clear we are about to see Jon riding the dragon named after his father, and Drogon is going to kill Viserion. 

It's about as clear as the Hound killing the Mountain.

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Viseryon isn't a wight nor a WW, i dont think anything like this have been described even in the books, the NK had to touch him because probably it isnt like bringing back a bear or a man, perhaps he needed a lot more strength, perhaps he used some kind of spell akin to the one used on Benjen..

as how will it die, poetic justice indicate that Drogon will have something to do, mirroring Visery's dead, but who knows, its more likely that Sam/Gendry/Qyburn improve the scorpion, we saw Drogon getting hurt by it, chekovs gun? 

Spoiler

I know the show and the book are pretty much divorced now, but does the fact that Viseryon "switched sides" indicates that Euron's dragon horn will work? This could be one of the plotpoints that GRRM revealed, and since D&D took the Dragonhorn out they kept the dragon plot just by giving it to the NK..

I think the WW on the books are pretty much OP spiders, giants,direwolves (they dont have the budget issue) handing them a dragon too seems too much, besides Euron's plot makes much more sense

 

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50 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If he is the NK mount, how does the NK make him fly in a particular direction. Dany has a connection with the dragons, so does that mean the NK touching the dragon was intentional to ensure he has a connection with Viserion? 

This is a good question! I'll take it one step further, because I am still pretty distraught about Viserion being killed, and in the "Bargaining" phase of it all.  Maybe Dany still has a connection to him, which means he not totally undead, but only mostly dead like Uncle Benjen.   In other threads, other forums people used to speculate that Bran would be the third dragon rider. What if the mark by the NK on Bran's arm backfires on the NK at some point and provides a loophole for Bran to control Viserion? That would be awesome and I'd never have to enter into the last 2 stages of grief.

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16 minutes ago, VenezuelanLord said:

Viseryon isn't a wight nor a WW, i dont think anything like this have been described even in the books, the NK had to touch him because probably it isnt like bringing back a bear or a man, perhaps he needed a lot more strength, perhaps he used some kind of spell akin to the one used on Benjen..

as how will it die, poetic justice indicate that Drogon will have something to do, mirroring Visery's dead, but who knows, its more likely that Sam/Gendry/Qyburn improve the scorpion, we saw Drogon getting hurt by it, chekovs gun? 

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I know the show and the book are pretty much divorced now, but does the fact that Viseryon "switched sides" indicates that Euron's dragon horn will work? This could be one of the plotpoints that GRRM revealed, and since D&D took the Dragonhorn out they kept the dragon plot just by giving it to the NK..

I think the WW on the books are pretty much OP spiders, giants,direwolves (they dont have the budget issue) handing them a dragon too seems too much, besides Euron's plot makes much more sense

 

I think we will only know what Viserion actually is when we see him in the season finale...

I know your talking about the books but I think it may be too late to introduce Eurons dragonbinder now in the show. However if we go all the way back to the Fist of the first men when Sam found the Dragonglass, there was a horn found aswell. Could the books Sam took have something of that in there, also presuming Sam still has the horn. Could this come into play in taking back control of Viserion

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I think he'll breath a stream of cold just like he did before with fire. Think of a fire extinguisher blasting out that cone shaped white powder. It has to be the opposite of fire and he has to have some power or else he is of no use to the NK. I can't see the NK sitting on him and leading his army just because its an upgrade from the dead horse he rides. He'll be used to attack armies with a blast of cold air just like the other dragons do with fire. I wish they had not had him crash into the ice and sink so we wouldn't have had to see the ridiculous seen of the 3 columns of dead pulling mile long chains. 

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59 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I know your talking about the books but I think it may be too late to introduce Eurons dragonbinder now in the show. However if we go all the way back to the Fist of the first men when Sam found the Dragonglass, there was a horn found aswell. Could the books Sam took have something of that in there, also presuming Sam still has the horn. Could this come into play in taking back control of Viserion

The Horn of Winter is a pretty different thing. It's First Men magic rather than Valyrian, and ice magic rather than fire, and the legends are about waking giants and knocking down walls rather than anything to do with either dragons or the dead.

Not to mention that in Joramun's time, the dead weren't on the march (although Night's King was supposedly making sacrifices to the Others to restore them), and dragons were still thousands of years from arriving in Westeros, so it would be odd for his horn to have anything to do with wighted dragons. If that were its power, nobody would have noticed that it did anything, so it would hardly have become legendary.

Also, Sam's horn may not be the Horn of Winter at all. I think there's a good chance it is (why would a Watchman hide a plain old warhorn under a pile of dragonglass at the Fist?), but it's definitely not the massive 8-foot horn described in the myths (which presumably looks like the probably-fake one that Mance had), and it's a bit odd that the Other that Sam ran into didn't even seem to notice that he was carrying a powerful artifact that the Others would presumably love to have, so I'm not positive.

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Viserion is now just an undead dragon. The NK will ride him, and he'll probably breathe some version of "ice" flames. That's already fucking scary,

Nothing more...or nothing less.

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3 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

How are dragons different from regular wights? In terms of what.... they are dragons???

So why would a human infant need the touch.....?

This turns them into WWs, so I wouldnt be wrong to assume the same action/process will turn the dragon into a WW dragon.

 

The baby was alive when the NK touched him.  Viserion was dead dead.

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Viserion is now just an undead dragon. The NK will ride him, and he'll probably breathe some version of "ice" flames. That's already fucking scary,

Nothing more...or nothing less.

I also believe so. I don't think the show will ever specify what type resurrection it was, WW or wight. It's a unique situation. See post just above. The touch may have been for dramatic effect, or maybe the dragon is a really powerful being that requires proximity and more enchantment. We will never now.

Edited by Eddard Scissorhands

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One thing I think we are forgetting unless my memory has failed me is that the only other time the NK turned someone or something by touching it was Kraster's baby and it was already alive.  Viscerion was dead, so who knows really.  

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He just touched him for dramatic effect. Viserion's not a White Walker, because he died first.

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11 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

After re watching episode 6 I think i have made a mistake with Viserion.

  • The NK turns Human infants into WWs with a touch of his finger/hand
  • The NK raises the dead by lifting his arms producing Wights

We clearly see the NK touch the dragon.... what does this mean?

Is Viserion a WW dragon now..... I would believe so. 

This bears the next question to how will it be killed???

 

The babies were alive as he "turned" them!

The lizard was definitely a dead lizard...

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9 hours ago, Katleesi said:

This is a good question! I'll take it one step further, because I am still pretty distraught about Viserion being killed, and in the "Bargaining" phase of it all.  Maybe Dany still has a connection to him, which means he not totally undead, but only mostly dead like Uncle Benjen.   In other threads, other forums people used to speculate that Bran would be the third dragon rider. What if the mark by the NK on Bran's arm backfires on the NK at some point and provides a loophole for Bran to control Viserion? That would be awesome and I'd never have to enter into the last 2 stages of grief.

I'm with you. Viserion will be "battled for" in a psychic duel between Bran and NK, he will become Brans dragon, hence, A song of Ice and Fire Dragon Edition and now that I've said that I'll sit next to you somewhere before the last 2 stages!

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

Viserion will be "battled for" in a psychic duel between Bran and NK

:agree:-- that's why we were shown the foreshadowing of the Night's King overriding/disrupting Bran's skinchanging control of the flock of ravens -- although I expected the wighted dragon in question to be Drogon!  

13 hours ago, Katleesi said:

This is a good question! I'll take it one step further, because I am still pretty distraught about Viserion being killed, and in the "Bargaining" phase of it all.  

The dragon's death was the only moving moment in an episode which otherwise left me...ugh...'cold'!  ;)  

Quote

Maybe Dany still has a connection to him, which means he not totally undead, but only mostly dead like Uncle Benjen.   In other threads, other forums people used to speculate that Bran would be the third dragon rider. What if the mark by the NK on Bran's arm backfires on the NK at some point and provides a loophole for Bran to control Viserion? That would be awesome and I'd never have to enter into the last 2 stages of grief.

I'm not sure how exactly 'the mark' is supposed to work, but the idea of it 'backfiring' appeals to me.  In the books, the 'mark backfiring' is a common motif; I call it 'countermocking'.  For example, the mark, psychic and physical, Brandon Stark left on Littlefinger in 'round one' of the Stark-Baelish duel, which instead of debilitating him only succeeded in emboldening him against the Starks.

Quote

Littlefinger ignored the jibe. He eyed Ned with a smile on his lips that bordered on insolence. "I have hoped to meet you for some years, Lord Stark. No doubt Lady Catelyn has mentioned me to you."

"She has," Ned replied with a chill in his voice. The sly arrogance of the comment rankled him. "I understand you knew my brother Brandon as well."

Renly Baratheon laughed. Varys shuffled over to listen.

"Rather too well," Littlefinger said. "I still carry a token of his esteem. Did Brandon speak of me too?"

"Often, and with some heat," Ned said, hoping that would end it. He had no patience with this game they played, this dueling with words.

"I should have thought that heat ill suits you Starks," Littlefinger said. "Here in the south, they say you are all made of ice, and melt when you ride below the Neck."

 (AGOT - Eddard IV)

 

Edited by ravenous reader

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the dragon isn't a WW, it's just a raised undead. Remember that the baby was alive when it was turned into a WW, while the dragon was dead. So he is basically a wight.

As for how to kill it, I dare to say that a dragonglass arrow would do because we've already seen that dragonglass immediately kills both WW and wights.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

the dragon isn't a WW, it's just a raised undead. Remember that the baby was alive when it was turned into a WW, while the dragon was dead. So he is basically a wight.

As for how to kill it, I dare to say that a dragonglass arrow would do because we've already seen that dragonglass immediately kills both WW and wights.

 

 

not arrow, the Dragon may be dead, but he still has the Thick Armor like scales, if anything, it should be a bolt made of dragonglass for qyburn scorpion.

15 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I think we will only know what Viserion actually is when we see him in the season finale...

I know your talking about the books but I think it may be too late to introduce Eurons dragonbinder now in the show. However if we go all the way back to the Fist of the first men when Sam found the Dragonglass, there was a horn found aswell. Could the books Sam took have something of that in there, also presuming Sam still has the horn. Could this come into play in taking back control of Viserion

as other user pointed out, i always thought that was the horn of juramun, made to bring down the wall, even more, it is broken, perhaps Sam will repair it when he is at the Citadel, i seem to recall a mention of the horn on DoD, 

14 hours ago, falcotron said:

The Horn of Winter is a pretty different thing. It's First Men magic rather than Valyrian, and ice magic rather than fire, and the legends are about waking giants and knocking down walls rather than anything to do with either dragons or the dead.

Not to mention that in Joramun's time, the dead weren't on the march (although Night's King was supposedly making sacrifices to the Others to restore them), and dragons were still thousands of years from arriving in Westeros, so it would be odd for his horn to have anything to do with wighted dragons. If that were its power, nobody would have noticed that it did anything, so it would hardly have become legendary.

Also, Sam's horn may not be the Horn of Winter at all. I think there's a good chance it is (why would a Watchman hide a plain old warhorn under a pile of dragonglass at the Fist?), but it's definitely not the massive 8-foot horn described in the myths (which presumably looks like the probably-fake one that Mance had), and it's a bit odd that the Other that Sam ran into didn't even seem to notice that he was carrying a powerful artifact that the Others would presumably love to have, so I'm not positive.

as you said, in joramun time, the WW and the wights wasnt around, at least not in force, this was a time of war between the kings of winter and the wildlings tribes and the ocassional king beyond the wall,  i dont think the WW have heard the myths of the wildlings. as to why it isnt as flamboyant as the myths describes, it is because hardly anything lives up to its legends, people exagerate, make things bigger, prettier, shinnier on their stories in order to make them more appealing, we have it in every country.. and if the horn its what is suspected to be, then its old AF and it has been on the outside for a very long time, meaning that the weather, animals, even time to time owners have taken a toll on it...

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Unfortunately, I think the Wight dragon might be here to stay and will only die when the NK dies.

There were too many references in this episode related to killing WW's and having their wights die and killing the NK and they all die for it not to happen. 

I really think next season will be everyone trying to survive until they figure out how to kill the NK.

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4 hours ago, VenezuelanLord said:

not arrow, the Dragon may be dead, but he still has the Thick Armor like scales, if anything, it should be a bolt made of dragonglass for qyburn scorpion.

 

Yeah, I was thinking about the dragon's skin but it seemed to me that in the Ep6, dragonglass kills wights immediately when it touches them, so in that case penetrating the scales wouldn't be necessary. But yeah, a giant scorpion bolt would be better, just to be sure. ;)

 

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Does it even matter how they kill Viseryon again? The first time they did it was pretty lame, and we know the night king is getting pantsed like a chump (which made Viseryon's death even cheaper IMHO) half way through next season because D&D are pretty clearly setting up Cersei to be the end game boss. 

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5 hours ago, VenezuelanLord said:

as you said, in joramun time, the WW and the wights wasnt around, at least not in force, this was a time of war between the kings of winter and the wildlings tribes and the ocassional king beyond the wall,  i dont think the WW have heard the myths of the wildlings.

Sure. Which is exactly why I doubt the Horn has anything to do with the WW, or wights, or dragons, and instead has to do with either giants or the Wall, exactly as the legends say it does.

5 hours ago, VenezuelanLord said:

i dont think the WW have heard the myths of the wildlings.

Right. They wouldn't know anything about a Horn that a wildling had legendarily used to raise giants.

But they would know about a Horn that had been created, and used in the past, to fight them by taking control of their wights or whatever.

So, the fact that they don't care about the Horn implies that the wildling legends are right, and therefore the Walkers have no reason to know or care about it.

And really, the only reason people seem to think otherwise is the name "Horn of Winter". There's plenty of good reasons for wildlings to give something a name like that without it having anything to do with the War for the Dawn. The "Frozen Shore" isn't called that because of anything to do with the White Walkers, it's just a shore that's frozen—half the things up the have "frozen" or "frost" or "winter" or "ice" in their names.

5 hours ago, VenezuelanLord said:

as to why it isnt as flamboyant as the myths describes, it is because hardly anything lives up to its legends, people exagerate, make things bigger, prettier, shinnier on their stories in order to make them more appealing, we have it in every country.. and if the horn its what is suspected to be, then its old AF and it has been on the outside for a very long time, meaning that the weather, animals, even time to time owners have taken a toll on it...

I never said anything about flamboyance. The legendary Horn of Winter was never described as fancy or shiny in the first place. I don't remember the book scene exactly with Mance's (presumably fake) horn, but I'm pretty sure they make exactly that point.

It's about size. The legendary horn was described as massive, 8 feet long. Mance's fake horn was also massive. Sam's horn is small. Thousands of years of winter aren't going to do that.

 

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