Samwell_Tarly

Viserion....

122 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Vuron said:

There were too many references in this episode related to killing WW's and having their wights die and killing the NK and they all die for it not to happen.

There's exactly one reference to killing the NK and they all die, and it's a desperate guess by Beric, a guy who admittedly has no idea what he's talking about, and it's denied by Jon, a guy who knows more than him.

The only place there are too many references to that idea is this forum, where half the people seem to be convinced that because Beric said it, it must be true.

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

There's exactly one reference to killing the NK and they all die, and it's a desperate guess by Beric, a guy who admittedly has no idea what he's talking about, and it's denied by Jon, a guy who knows more than him.

The only place there are too many references to that idea is this forum, where half the people seem to be convinced that because Beric said it, it must be true.

That was the NK, Specifically, which was lead into by the first fight where they killed the Walker.  Through 7 seasons, nobody ever knew that killing a Walker destroyed his minions like friggin vampires.  I guess they just ignored that at Hardhome

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1 hour ago, Vuron said:

That was the NK, Specifically, which was lead into by the first fight where they killed the Walker.  Through 7 seasons, nobody ever knew that killing a Walker destroyed his minions like friggin vampires.  I guess they just ignored that at Hardhome

I'm sorry, I don't understand what point you're making here. What was the NK? And what does any of that have to do with the idea that killing the NK will kill all the Walkers just because killing a Walker killed its wights? 

Also, why does everyone keep saying "like friggin vampires"? That's not true in most vampire stories (even after Anne Rice), and it's at least as common in other types of supernatural stories, and most common of all in robot-invader stories.

Is this something to do with the World of Darkness games? Did they decide that killing a vampire kills its creations, but for werewolves or whatever other monsters they have it doesn't work, so a generation of kids grew up believing that's some universal rule? (The only reason I'm guessing that is that I've seen way too many people say things like "In most fantasy literature, the original vampire was Caine", which definitely isn't true of most fantasy literature, but is true in WoD, and also everyone but WoD spells his name "Cain".)

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7 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand what point you're making here. What was the NK? And what does any of that have to do with the idea that killing the NK will kill all the Walkers just because killing a Walker killed its wights? 

Also, why does everyone keep saying "like friggin vampires"? That's not true in most vampire stories (even after Anne Rice), and it's at least as common in other types of supernatural stories, and most common of all in robot-invader stories.

Is this something to do with the World of Darkness games? Did they decide that killing a vampire kills its creations, but for werewolves or whatever other monsters they have it doesn't work, so a generation of kids grew up believing that's some universal rule? (The only reason I'm guessing that is that I've seen way too many people say things like "In most fantasy literature, the original vampire was Caine", which definitely isn't true of most fantasy literature, but is true in WoD, and also everyone but WoD spells his name "Cain".)

The point is that Beric and the rest of the group have come to the conclusion that killing a WW kills the wights that he creates.  The NK created the WW's.  So, killing the NK kills the WW's, which kills all the wights.

There have been more than a few vampire stories that I've read or seen that use the premise of killing the source vampire kills all the creatures it turned.  My wife currently watches a TV show where this is the case.  The Originals.

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well considering it is likely just a wight only not human "like that undead bear they fought" the nightking is just riding a dragon mount. It might breath ice but in the end he is just a wight and can get burned by fire like any others. It will be a cool way to fight with dragons which the show wants to do. Ironically if dany hits the undead dragon with dragon fire from drogon while the night king is riding it he is proper fuc*ed since he will fall from a long way up and on top of a flaming corpse. And that's if none of the dragon fire hits him. That has to do at least some damage and leave him vulnerable for a time

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52 minutes ago, Vuron said:

The point is that Beric and the rest of the group have come to the conclusion that killing a WW kills the wights that he creates.  The NK created the WW's.  So, killing the NK kills the WW's, which kills all the wights.

Killing the droid control computer kills all the droids. So killing the guy who programmed all the droid control computers must kill all the droid control computers, right?

Of course not.

Even in this universe: Benjen didn't die when the Children died, Beric didn't die when Thoros died, I wouldn't expect Jon to die when Melisandre dies, and of course the NK didn't die when Leaf died.

Wights are dead corpses animated by magic, with nothing like a life of their own. WWs are living people transformed into some other state. They think for themselves, and even talk. They seem a lot more like Jon or the NK than like the wights. They're even apparently created the same way Benjen and the NK were.

Just because Beric, who knows nothing about it, in desperate straits, made a wild guess that killing the NK would kill all the WWs, that doesn't mean he's right.

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11 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Killing the droid control computer kills all the droids. So killing the guy who programmed all the droid control computers must kill all the droid control computers, right?

Of course not.

Even in this universe: Benjen didn't die when the Children died, Beric didn't die when Thoros died, I wouldn't expect Jon to die when Melisandre dies, and of course the NK didn't die when Leaf died.

Wights are dead corpses animated by magic, with nothing like a life of their own. WWs are living people transformed into some other state. They think for themselves, and even talk. They seem a lot more like Jon or the NK than like the wights. They're even apparently created the same way Benjen and the NK were.

Just because Beric, who knows nothing about it, in desperate straits, made a wild guess that killing the NK would kill all the WWs, that doesn't mean he's right.

I never said that Beric was right, only that this was the conclusion they arrived at.  When Beric mentioned it, the others seemed to indicate a silent agreement.

Unfortunately, he reached this conclusion after seeing the events in the previous battle and I believe the writers were trying to get us watchers to come to the same conclusion.  If not, there was absolutely no reason to have the wights die in that fashion.  The group could have simply killed all but one before capturing the last one.  Their disintegration was clearly shown on purpose along with the groups discussion about it after it happened.  We are being led in that direction and I'm hoping it's a red herring because it's just poor writing, if not.  

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On 8/21/2017 at 4:26 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

So that would make him the same but undead...therefore I cant see no reason why he wont still breath fire.

Yeah I dont necessary think that the dragon will inherit the raising the dead power. The magic of the Walkers is unclear and this needs to be addressed soon (I hope)

Ive already mentioned that, if hes a WW then he'll be unharmed by fire.

Wights are killed with dragonglass, that was confirmed by Jon in Ep2 of season 7. 

Yeah I can see this being a real possibility.

Until season 7 concludes and/or we learn more about how the WW/NK magic works then we will still be only be able to speculate.

I'm just speculating here. But I think that a whight dragon will not be able to breathe fire. It might breathe something else, like a blast of intense ice. The fire magic that restores life from the lord of light, and gave life to the dragons is the opposite of the magic that makes the dead alive. For a twist though Viseron will likely be immune to fire. So it will take dragon glass or valerian steel to kill him.

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On 8/21/2017 at 3:26 PM, Samwell_Tarly said:

 

Yeah I dont necessary think that the dragon will inherit the raising the dead power. The magic of the Walkers is unclear and this needs to be addressed soon (I hope)

One can hope. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that the show is much concerned with the consistencies of the various magics. 

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1 hour ago, Vuron said:

I never said that Beric was right, only that this was the conclusion they arrived at.  When Beric mentioned it, the others seemed to indicate a silent agreement.

Unfortunately, he reached this conclusion after seeing the events in the previous battle and I believe the writers were trying to get us watchers to come to the same conclusion.  If not, there was absolutely no reason to have the wights die in that fashion.  The group could have simply killed all but one before capturing the last one.  Their disintegration was clearly shown on purpose along with the groups discussion about it after it happened.  We are being led in that direction and I'm hoping it's a red herring because it's just poor writing, if not.  

The disintegration is obviously to show us that killing a walker kills all his wights. But again, that doesn't necessarily mean that killing the NK kills all his walkers.

I think there was silent agreement to the "We can go for the walkers" part earlier, before Jon said "No, we need to take that thing back with us"—they might be able to kill enough walkers to take out enough wights to get a path to escape, but there's no way they'd be able to do that while carrying the captive wight. But the "Kill him, he turned them all" line, Jon immediately responds "You don't understand", and everyone goes back to talking about why they're prepared to die.

I don't know what Jon thinks Beric doesn't understand, or why everyone just accepts it, but it can't still be about needing to take the captured wight back—if they really did kill the entire army of the dead in one blow, there'd be no need for a captured wight (and no captured wight, for that matter).

I suppose it could be that all Jon means is that it's more risky to try to fight their way through to the point where one of them could engage the NK than to wait for Dany, but that's hardly the most obvious interpretation of "You don't understand".

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Ice-Viserion will kill Rhaegal, Drogon will kill Ice-Viserion. I can't see any other way that's going.

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16 minutes ago, Wagshell said:

Ice-Viserion will kill Rhaegal, Drogon will kill Ice-Viserion. I can't see any other way that's going.

I can see all three Dragons being killed... which coincidentally would mean....

Both Dany and Cersei are both beautiful blondes looking to rule... by the end I imagine both will have lose 4 children each.... it's like that prophecy could have been meant for either one of them if it hadn't been told to Cersei specifically.

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On 8/21/2017 at 7:33 PM, Eddard Scissorhands said:

The baby was alive when the NK touched him.  Viserion was dead dead.

If Viserion was dead dead, they wouldn't have needed the chains. He would have just risen like the NK raised all the corpses at Hardhome.

Viserion would also have had a wight eye (whites same blue as the iris), not a walker eye (all blue iris.) 

Viserion is like Craster's baby. He has the same eyes. Baby was touched. Show made a huge point our of both of these moments.

The Children of the Forest taught us if you make a sentient weapon, it can turn on you.

Very poetic if the Night King makes the same mistake. 

Also - I don't think Bran can worg the dead. He'll be able to worg Viserion I think. That will cause the turn. 

I think Beric is going to have guessed correctly for the most part. Kill the NK and they all drop. 

I think The Night King is Patient Zero. 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

I don't know what Jon thinks Beric doesn't understand, or why everyone just accepts it, but it can't still be about needing to take the captured wight back—if they really did kill the entire army of the dead in one blow, there'd be no need for a captured wight (and no captured wight, for that matter).

I suppose it could be that all Jon means is that it's more risky to try to fight their way through to the point where one of them could engage the NK than to wait for Dany, but that's hardly the most obvious interpretation of "You don't understand".

For the same reasons Frodo doesn't ride an eagle over Mount Doom. The story would be over.

Cersei is the penultimate Boss of ASOIAF, because she'll be insane enough from not getting her way, she'll side with the AotD so NO ONE can have anything. So ending the WW threat now, we get no season 8, and no awesome ending for Lena, and no AAR.... and all the rest of the loose ends of all the characters we love.

This is justified by Jon's comment which I understand to mean - there's no way they get to the NK from their geographical location alive before the NK takes off on his wight horse.

I mean - yes, Beric's idea isn't wrong - it's just not logistically possible, where being defensive for as long as possible gives them the chance Gendry made it, so did the raven, and Dany's eventual arrival before they all freeze to death.

Beric wasn't at Hardhome. Jon knows water is an issue for them, how they move, how they're controlled mostly... he watched the dead rise at Hardhome. He watched them run off a cliff, and keep going... Jon's not wrong either.

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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16 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

For the same reasons Frodo doesn't ride an eagle over Mount Doom. The story would be over.

No. This isn't a parody, or a Discworld novel where the witches understand that their world runs on narrativium. The Council of Elrond's reasons for not sending the ring on Gwaihir's back* do not include the fact that they know they're only in the 1st part of a 6-part saga, and Jon's reasons for not killing the NK do not include the fact that he knows he's only in the 7th season of an 8-year show.

---

* And really, everyone who cares knows what the reasons are, except for trolls who like to ask the same question over and over and pretend nobody's answered it.

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6 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

If Viserion was dead dead, they wouldn't have needed the chains. He would have just risen like the NK raised all the corpses at Hardhome.

Viserion would also have had a wight eye (whites same blue as the iris), not a walker eye (all blue iris.) 

Viserion is like Craster's baby. He has the same eyes. Baby was touched. Show made a huge point our of both of these moments.

The Children of the Forest taught us if you make a sentient weapon, it can turn on you.

Very poetic if the Night King makes the same mistake. 

Also - I don't think Bran can worg the dead. He'll be able to worg Viserion I think. That will cause the turn. 

I think Beric is going to have guessed correctly for the most part. Kill the NK and they all drop. 

I think The Night King is Patient Zero. 

the blacked part is the only part that confuses me, are you implying that Viseryon wasnt completely dead when the NK touched him?, we certainly dont know much about Dragon´s endurance, but getting the torax pierced, your guts spilled over a frozen lake and then falling on said lake for a X amount of time, wouldve done it ( hell just rename the Dragon to Rasputin and youre done), but i agree in that the magic that was used to bring back Viseryion isnt the same used to bring back the wights, but, i dont think its the same that creates WW, for all we know the Criokinesis magic the NK may have a thousand different ways of doing the trick.. 

EDIT;

Quote

It's about size. The legendary horn was described as massive, 8 feet long. Mance's fake horn was also massive. Sam's horn is small. Thousands of years of winter aren't going to do that.

the size is among those treats that people exagerates, over time the story said that the horn was bigger, and bigger, and bigger, until its said to be massive, and then aside from massive, they started adding details, banded in bronze, runes carved.. etc etc etc.. we even have a character thats famous for exagerating the size of his pecker to inhuman ammounts..  so we know the wildings like to add small details to their stories to make them more incredible

Edited by VenezuelanLord

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9 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

-If Viserion was dead dead, they wouldn't have needed the chains. He would have just risen like the NK raised all the corpses at Hardhome.

-Viserion would also have had a wight eye (whites same blue as the iris), not a walker eye (all blue iris.) 

-Viserion is like Craster's baby. He has the same eyes. Baby was touched. Show made a huge point our of both of these moments.

The Children of the Forest taught us if you make a sentient weapon, it can turn on you.

Very poetic if the Night King makes the same mistake. 

Also - I don't think Bran can worg the dead. He'll be able to worg Viserion I think. That will cause the turn. 

I think Beric is going to have guessed correctly for the most part. Kill the NK and they all drop. 

I think The Night King is Patient Zero. 

-I don't completely understand what you are implying here. Viserion was for certain dead. I understand you're implying they needed chains so the NK could touch him but what do the chains have to do with being alive or not? Are you suggesting Viserion would have flown away or something because you think he was alive?

-You have a point there.

-No, Craster's baby was alive and well when turned. 

 

So in case of the dragon it's a unique process and unprecedented in the show.

 

Edited by Eddard Scissorhands

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On 8/22/2017 at 3:27 AM, Dragonandwolf said:

If hes a walker with Valyrian steel maybe?

Maybe Sam will find a way to save him :)

Or may be dragonstone?

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On 8/22/2017 at 3:32 AM, Brightstar_ said:

I bet he's nothing more than an undead dragon for the NK to ride. That's already terrifying enough and the question of how do you even kill that still stands. The fact that they had the NK touch him was probably because they thought it looked cooler, I don't think they mind the minor inconsistency that's involved with it, hell they probably didn't even think about that.

When NK touches undead creatures, they turn into WW. So,if that's so, it can be killed with dragonstone / valyrian steel.

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On 8/22/2017 at 3:34 AM, Samwell_Tarly said:

In theory if he was a WW dragon, it would make sense that he would be killed with Valyrian steel or Dragonglass. If he does follow the rules of the WWs then he potentially is fireproof, therefore another dragon may not be able to kill him. 

But having Viserion on the other side now, could lay reference to Khal drogo killing Viserys, therefore potentially foreshadowing that Daenerys will have to use Drogon to kill Viserion

Thinking about dragons with riders fighting in mid air is so awesome!!

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