Sansa becoming Cersei

[Pandean]

59 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

I wouldn't say despicable, but there is an unStarkness to it that is important and it's why there's been tension between Sansa and Jon and between Sansa and Arya.  Sansa looks at the world now from a very consequentialist point of view.  She judges actions by whether they bring consequences she wants or consequences she doesn't want.  And it's maybe a bigger argument than this thread whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, though I think that question is certainly one of the things being explored by the book and the series. Jon and Ned and Arya seem to be on the other side.  They seem to have a much more non-consequentialist world view bound up in ideas of duty to family and honor.  So they're easily driven to do things that have bad results for noble reasons (e.g the "stupid" thing that Ned did that got him killed was to confront Cersei and give her a chance to leave King's Landing with her children, or the "stupid" things Jon has done -- riding out to meet Rickon, returning the Karstarks and Umbers to their lands).  Sansa has meanwhile done sensible things in shady ways (summoning Littlefinger) or opposed the rash but noble actions of her brother. 

Cersei is on the same side as Sansa in that sense -- her thorough consequentialism and disinterest in any non-consequentialist claim as to what is right and wrong.  

Does that make Sansa like Cersei?  Probably not but I think the show is leading us to circumstances under which we either establish that you can be consequentialist without becoming a Cersei Lannister or Sansa has to reexamine and maybe abandon her interest in consequences.  Maybe that's where the quarrel with Arya is driving things?

I like this idea here.

It's true. Many of the Starks act on honor, family, and duty, etc. Which does sometimes cause them to pay for it in not-so-good ways. I think that part of it is that the Starks are not normally the center of any political intrigue. They're so far up North and disconnected from it all. So, when the way they do things and the nest of vipers that is the South and their way of doing things collide, it doesn't end very well.

I guess then there's the question if you can still be honorable while being pragmatic. Sansa is the most pragmatic of the Starks now because she's spent most of the time in the South, in a decadent court where death was a very real option, learning how to survive in that area, versus Arya, Bran, and Jon who all have different experiences.

I don't think the North will ever go back to the isolated from the games of the capitol state it was, however.

But I can see, especially to those like Arya and Jon, how the dealings of things pragmatically can rub them the wrong way. Especially when it comes to Sansa who always was a bit of the odd one out, sibling-wise.

[Dickon Khaleesi]

48 minutes ago, Pandean said:

ummm

 

Robb:

*Broke Oath to Walder Frey to marry some foreign girl 

*Killed Rickard Karstark despite everyone telling him to keep him as a hostage as to not lose the Karstark men

*Sent Theon to the Iron Islands despite being told otherwise

Ned:

*Tells Cersei beforehand he's going to tell Robert about everything and thus setting up Robert's death and his own death

*Refusing to play the Game and being killed due to lack of political savvy

*Nearly refusing to confess and thus both almost condemning not only his life but Sansa's

*Trusting Littlefinger

 

How are any of these smart? These actions caused both their own downfall.

Sansa saying that both Ned and Robb made stupid choices and both paid for it is not despicable, it's true.

I beg to differ and where was Sansa during all of these events? For her to say her father and eldest brother was stupid that's when the word despicable comes in. Good night all.

[Infeth]

Just now, Dickon Khaleesi said:

and where was Sansa during all of these events?

Seriously? :')

[Pandean]

I'm laughing. So. Hard.

[Gaz0680]

57 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I like this idea here.

It's true. Many of the Starks act on honor, family, and duty, etc. Which does sometimes cause them to pay for it in not-so-good ways. I think that part of it is that the Starks are not normally the center of any political intrigue. They're so far up North and disconnected from it all. So, when the way they do things and the nest of vipers that is the South and their way of doing things collide, it doesn't end very well.

I guess then there's the question if you can still be honorable while being pragmatic. Sansa is the most pragmatic of the Starks now because she's spent most of the time in the South, in a decadent court where death was a very real option, learning how to survive in that area, versus Arya, Bran, and Jon who all have different experiences.

I don't think the North will ever go back to the isolated from the games of the capitol state it was, however.

But I can see, especially to those like Arya and Jon, how the dealings of things pragmatically can rub them the wrong way. Especially when it comes to Sansa who always was a bit of the odd one out, sibling-wise.

This is strange how you and Capo Ferro have lumped Arya in with Ned and Jon, when Arya is a completely different character and does not share Neds and Jons values.

Arya isnt dogmatic like Ned. She is not completely pragmatic, but is practical and her actions are not based on any code of honor like Neds and Robbs were or Jons are. 

Honor is and always has been fairly low on Aryas list of personal values. She has always been far more practical than any of her family (except perhaps Sansa now - as children Arya was by far the more pragmatic one while Sansa spent her time dreaming about the way she thought things should be).

I dont think Arya has any problem with Sansa wanting to do things pragmatically - indeed Arya herself takes the pragmatix approach much if the time, but its the motivations she is questioning when it comes to Sansa, not her actions. 

I agree with Jon its a bit different as his view is more dogmatic than Sansa's so understandable they would have different opinions on how to handle situations.

Arya's outlook is unique and doesn't really match any of her family's.

[Pandean]

27 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

This is strange how you and Capo Ferro have lumped Arya in with Ned and Jon, when Arya is a completely different character and does not share Neds and Jons values.

Arya isnt dogmatic like Ned. She is not completely pragmatic, but is practical and her actions are not based on any code of honor like Neds and Robbs were or Jons are. 

Honor is and always has been fairly low on Aryas list of personal values. She has always been far more practical than any of her family (except perhaps Sansa now - as children Arya was by far the more pragmatic one while Sansa spent her time dreaming about the way she thought things should be).

I dont think Arya has any problem with Sansa wanting to do things pragmatically - indeed Arya herself takes the pragmatix approach much if the time, but its the motivations she is questioning when it comes to Sansa, not her actions. 

I agree with Jon its a bit different as his view is more dogmatic than Sansa's so understandable they would have different opinions on how to handle situations.

Arya's outlook is unique and doesn't really match any of her family's.

I don't think Arya is exactly like Jon and Ned or falls into the same category as then. They're different people.

I more so think that Arya, while pragmatic, isn't accustomed to the way things are done in the South via the Game, similar to Jon and Ned. She's not really a player. While she is cunning and practical, it's not in  the same way as Sansa.

I was just saying in general, the Starks haven't really been involved in these things as often as everyone else and the person who ended up most involved in Court and whatnot was Sansa, so it would make sense that she seems different and makes the other Starks sort of wary or cautious, or, if Arya and Sansa aren't acting this whole thing out for LF, treacherous.

Arya and Sansa are both cunning, but Sansa is the character who probably has adopted the most political pragmatic outlook of the remaining Starks, especially due to her time in the capitol and whatnot, and thus it might be natural that it makes her seem suspicious to Arya, who has a very different experience and while practical and pragmatic, comes across to me as more straightforward.

 

ETA:

I apologize for continuing to fuck up at explaining my thoughts. I'm someone who tends to say something, then has to re-process it multiple times before I can finally get it to sound right because my mind is....a bit different developmentally. It annoys a lot of people. Sorry.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa is not Cersei. Sansa is dumb and unlucky. Cersei is an Uber Narcissist who is very, very lucky.

[TheKingInTheNorth3]

2 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

I wouldn't say despicable, but there is an unStarkness to it that is important and it's why there's been tension between Sansa and Jon and between Sansa and Arya.  Sansa looks at the world now from a very consequentialist point of view.  She judges actions by whether they bring consequences she wants or consequences she doesn't want.  And it's maybe a bigger argument than this thread whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, though I think that question is certainly one of the things being explored by the book and the series. Jon and Ned and Arya seem to be on the other side.  They seem to have a much more non-consequentialist world view bound up in ideas of duty to family and honor.  So they're easily driven to do things that have bad results for noble reasons (e.g the "stupid" thing that Ned did that got him killed was to confront Cersei and give her a chance to leave King's Landing with her children, or the "stupid" things Jon has done -- riding out to meet Rickon, returning the Karstarks and Umbers to their lands).  Sansa has meanwhile done sensible things in shady ways (summoning Littlefinger) or opposed the rash but noble actions of her brother. 

Cersei is on the same side as Sansa in that sense -- her thorough consequentialism and disinterest in any non-consequentialist claim as to what is right and wrong.  

Does that make Sansa like Cersei?  Probably not but I think the show is leading us to circumstances under which we either establish that you can be consequentialist without becoming a Cersei Lannister or Sansa has to reexamine and maybe abandon her interest in consequences.  Maybe that's where the quarrel with Arya is driving things?

This is a very well thought out response, and very much what I was getting at in my initial post.  I don't think Sansa will become as cruel and evil as Cersei.  However, I see her employing some of the same devices and thinking the same way as Cersei... and this is what scares me.  

 

P.S. to the poster who said this has to do with chauvinism... go back to SJW school 

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

 

P.S. to the poster who said this has to do with chauvinism... go back to SJW school 

If you think that our reactions to news, characterizations, and situations aren't colored by the social and cultural norms that we've been raised in, you haven't been paying attention. Not social justice warriors. That's sociology 101.

[Gaz0680]

8 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I don't think Arya is exactly like Jon and Ned or falls into the same category as then. They're different people.

I more so think that Arya, while pragmatic, isn't accustomed to the way things are done in the South via the Game, similar to Jon and Ned. She's not really a player. While she is cunning and practical, it's not in  the same way as Sansa.

I was just saying in general, the Starks haven't really been involved in these things as often as everyone else and the person who ended up most involved in Court and whatnot was Sansa, so it would make sense that she seems different and makes the other Starks sort of wary or cautious, or, if Arya and Sansa aren't acting this whole thing out for LF, treacherous.

Arya and Sansa are both cunning, but Sansa is the character who probably has adopted the most political pragmatic outlook of the remaining Starks, especially due to her time in the capitol and whatnot, and thus it might be natural that it makes her seem suspicious to Arya, who has a very different experience and while practical and pragmatic, comes across to me as more straightforward.

Yes, Arya is certainly more direct than Sansa.

Arya is equally cunning as Sansa, but in a different way. Arya has learned deception and how to play games or to act a certain role to achieve an objective. She has good street cunning I guess you could say and I believe she is currently using this in Winterfell. You could say some of the skills she has could be transferrable to the political arena, but not all, and not necessarily easily.

For example, the Faceless Men ability to lie effectively and detect lies from individuals could be awesome in politics if you had only one political opponent and were in a one on one conversation with them in person. However, when you have any number of enemies spreading communications (both true and false) and gaining information (both true and false) through multiple methods, it becomes much more complex to suss out the truth of what is really happening and determining the most appropriate course of action.

Sansa has directly learned real political cunning. She has learned from the likes of Cersei, Tyrion and Littlefinger, so has developed political savvy, which she is currently demonstrating in Winterfell on the show.

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Yes, Arya is certainly more direct than Sansa.

Arya is equally cunning as Sansa, but in a different way. Arya has learned deception and how to play games or to act a certain role to achieve an objective. She has good street cunning I guess you could say and I believe she is currently using this in Winterfell. You could say some of the skills she has could be transferrable to the political arena, but not all, and not necessarily easily.

For example, the Faceless Men ability to lie effectively and detect lies from individuals could be awesome in politics if you had only one political opponent and were in a one on one conversation with them in person. However, when you have any number of enemies spreading communications (both true and false) and gaining information (both true and false) through multiple methods, it becomes much more complex to suss out the truth of what is really happening and determining the most appropriate course of action.

Sansa has directly learned real political cunning. She has learned from the likes of Cersei, Tyrion and Littlefinger, so has developed political savvy, which she is currently demonstrating in Winterfell on the show.

Yes. This. Agreed 100%. Both girls are cunning but it's a different type of cunning. 

Arya's FM abilities are probably not as useful in a big political field such as the things going on in Westeros where there are lies that are hidden with truths and lies again, etc. It's all very jumbled and very half-truth-y. That being said, Sansa's abilities would not transfer over to FM things very well.

It would be very hard to use detecting lies effeciently when things are usually covered in truths, half-truths, and the like FM style. That being said, FM are not political players. So their brand of things are not meant for that, but for, in the most simplized form, being religious assassins (obvs there is more, just keeping it simple)

Just like political cunning, while good for the political field, isn't meant for FM and assassin stuff.

I may be using the wrong words but one seems more resourceful and one seems more pragmatic. I'm probably saying that wrong.

Again, apologies. I have a hard time writing down my thoughts correctly so if I'm frustrating you or anything, apologies. Yay developmental disorders whooo.

[Illiterati]

1 hour ago, Infeth said:

Seriously? :')

Look at his nickname.  He's a troll.

[Pandean]

4 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Look at his nickname.  He's a troll.

We can have nicknames?

[Gaz0680]

45 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Yes. This. Agreed 100%. Both girls are cunning but it's a different type of cunning. 

Arya's FM abilities are probably not as useful in a big political field such as the things going on in Westeros where there are lies that are hidden with truths and lies again, etc. It's all very jumbled and very half-truth-y. That being said, Sansa's abilities would not transfer over to FM things very well.

It would be very hard to use detecting lies effeciently when things are usually covered in truths, half-truths, and the like FM style. That being said, FM are not political players. So their brand of things are not meant for that, but for, in the most simplized form, being religious assassins (obvs there is more, just keeping it simple)

Just like political cunning, while good for the political field, isn't meant for FM and assassin stuff.

I may be using the wrong words but one seems more resourceful 

I agree with this, except for the part about Faceless Men not being political players.

Individual Faceless Men aren't political players. That is true.

However, Im not completely convinced the Faceless Men as an organisation, at least in the books, dont have any political affiliations or aspirations. I think its entirely possible the Iron Bank uses the Faceless Men to achieve its own political aims.

[Infeth]

14 minutes ago, Pandean said:

We can have nicknames?

I don't even know what my pseudo means for you, I'm not english, it's just... a pseudo I use everywhere?.. :/

I just found the "where was Sansa???" really stupid considering she was an hostage! ^^'

[Dickon Khaleesi]

22 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Look at his nickname.  He's a troll.

Funny considering the fact that I am not a troll as I have made my point on a civil manner about sansa and when nobody dared to respectfully respond to my latest post but responded in a such a childish way. Hmm.

[Pandean]

20 minutes ago, Infeth said:

I don't even know what my pseudo means for you, I'm not english, it's just... a pseudo I use everywhere?.. :/

I just found the "where was Sansa???" really stupid considering she was an hostage! ^^'

Don't you know Sansa made all of Robb's executive decisions from her room in King's Landing???

[Pandean]

13 minutes ago, Dickon Khaleesi said:

Funny considering the fact that I am not a troll as I have made my point on a civil manner about sansa and when nobody dared to respectfully respond to my latest post but responded in a such a childish way. Hmm.

Maybe it's because you don't have any arguments worth responding for in ways other than laughter

 

[TheKingInTheNorth3]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

If you think that our reactions to news, characterizations, and situations aren't colored by the social and cultural norms that we've been raised in, you haven't been paying attention. Not social justice warriors. That's sociology 101.

Go back and read the initial chauvinism claim put forth.  I'm not saying it isn't a part of the modern-day social and cultural reality.  I'm saying my connection of Sansa/Cersei has nothing to do with his/her claims.  I'm simply pointing out something I noticed and parallels I've drawn between two characters in a fictional series.  Everything isn't always about the patriarchy.

[Pandean]

13 minutes ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

Go back and read the initial chauvinism claim put forth.  I'm not saying it isn't a part of the modern-day social and cultural reality.  I'm saying my connection of Sansa/Cersei has nothing to do with his/her claims.  I'm simply pointing out something I noticed and parallels I've drawn between two characters in a fictional series.  Everything isn't always about the patriarchy.

They have a point, though.

Conditioning wise, we are more likely to view a women with a man's traits of authority as being more bitchy. Sansa, Cersei, Dany, Olenna, Arya, Catelyn, etc. It happens in real life too. Traits of men are considered 'bossy' or bitchy on woman.

It isn't about the patriarchy, it's about how societies work and how we do, like it or not, tend to unconsciously view the different sexes different for the same or similar actions.

And it would make sense that as Sansa takes more power and authority over Winterfell, some of the reasons she's compared to certain characters or called a bitch might stem (whether consciously or unconsciously) from that social view.

I don't think anyone thinks that it's straight out "Women ruling are bitchy". It's mainly and usually unconscious thoughts. 

Also, all you said about that post was "P.S. to the poster etc. etc. go back to SJW school" so unless I missed something, I don't know what your connection was because you didn't say anything about it other than that. If you did say something regarding their post other than that, I'd love to see it, however.