Sansa becoming Cersei

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

What? You seriously don't remember Cersei making sure all her soldiers and the smallfolk of Kingslanding are well armed, warm,and have a safe place to fall back to during the war?

I must watch this more closely  NOW, I see many parallels between the two of them.

[Dickon Khaleesi]

20 minutes ago, Lady Sansa Stark said:

I mean.. what? I'm confused. Footage literally not found.

Confused about what? The footage is there when she talks to Jon.

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, Dickon Khaleesi said:

Confused about what? The footage is there when she talks to Jon.

She's part of Jon's council. She literally sides by Jon's side. She is suppose to be giving advice, especially when everyone is in attendance. And she was right when it came to Robb and Ned. She loved them but they did stupid things that killed them.

 

None of that is disrespecting Jon. It's advising Jon. That's her job as Lady of Winterfell and one of Jon's advisers. 

Disagreeing and saying here's why is different than disrespecting.

Multiple characters in those scenes spoke up. Is Lyanna Mormont suddenly disrespecting Jon when she disagrees? How about Davos? Or any other Northern or Vale Lords?

 

[Tianzi]

As for now, Sansa is the one who takes 'let's reason with the lords and not excalate conflicts' approach as opposed to 'fhafuhigq khfudsui hdsajk traitors, traitors, let's cut everyone's heads!', so I'd say it's one as far cry from Cersei as possible.

[Dickon Khaleesi]

3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

She's part of Jon's council. She literally sides by Jon's side. She is suppose to be giving advice, especially when everyone is in attendance. And she was right when it came to Robb and Ned. She loved them but they did stupid things that killed them.

 

None of that is disrespecting Jon. It's advising Jon. That's her job as Lady of Winterfell and one of Jon's advisers. 

Disagreeing and saying here's why is different than disrespecting.

Multiple characters in those scenes spoke up. Is Lyanna Mormont suddenly disrespecting Jon when she disagrees? How about Davos? Or any other Northern or Vale Lords?

 

When Sansa talked down about Robb that was a smack in the face to Jon and in fact that was despicable. 

[Darksnider05]

9 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

As for now, Sansa is the one who takes 'let's reason with the lords and not excalate conflicts' approach as opposed to 'fhafuhigq khfudsui hdsajk traitors, traitors, let's cut everyone's heads!', so I'd say it's one as far cry from Cersei as possible.

What she literally fought with Jon about calling down attainder on two houses.  That's death,loss of land titles and essentially being beggared in Winter.  Which would mean their servants as they can't be trusted their men as well.  So yeah might wanna back that statement up.  Chopping off heads is one thing attainder is another. 

 

2 minutes ago, Dickon Khaleesi said:

When Sansa talked down about Robb that was a smack in the face to Jon and in fact that was despicable. 

Yeah well she's not really one for self judgement never has been, so calling her dead family stupid when one died for her and the other died via the worst betrayal in centuries and a slight against her peoples gods.  She's got foot mouth disease in the extreme.

[Illiterati]

2 minutes ago, Dickon Khaleesi said:

When Sansa talked down about Robb that was a smack in the face to Jon and in fact that was despicable. 

That's a very naive and "black and white" way to look at it.

She didn't talk down about it.  She used his story as warning to Jon:  Robb did something stupid, it cost him his head.

 

Are you positing that Robb didn't do something stupid?

[Pandean]

7 minutes ago, Dickon Khaleesi said:

When Sansa talked down about Robb that was a smack in the face to Jon and in fact that was despicable. 

How is "I loved father and Robb but they did stupid things and they died for them"

smacking Jon in the face and despicable?

 

She loved her father and her brother, and she's right, they DID do stupid things and DID die over them. She wants Jon not to make the same mistakes, because guess what, she cares about him and doesn't want him to die.

Robb made many mistakes as KitN and he ended up dying. Ned made mistakes as HotK and died.

Glorifying Robb and Ned and ignoring that they did do stupid things and did die for them is not going to help anyone, much less the new KitN. 

What should she have said "Robb and Father did everything perfect and wonderful and they only died because the world was cruel and unfair?"

She gave legit, helpful advice. 

By that logic, when Ser Jorah told Dany "Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably, Rhaegar fought vailantly, and Rhaegar died." should be considered disrespectful and rude and mean, etc.

[Tianzi]

8 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Yeah well she's not really one for self judgement never has been, so calling her dead family stupid when one died for her and the other died via the worst betrayal in centuries and a slight against her peoples gods.  She's got foot mouth disease in the extreme.

I thought the topic of this discussion was supposed to be Sansa/Cersei comparision no 'oh no, we hate Sansa cause she hurt Jon's feels'. So no Cerseism here either, since she's being completely correct about both Robb and Ned.

11 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

What she literally fought with Jon about calling down attainder on two houses.  That's death,loss of land titles and essentially being beggared in Winter.  Which would mean their servants as they can't be trusted their men as well.  So yeah might wanna back that statement up.  Chopping off heads is one thing attainder is another. 

I don't really understand this paragraph.

Also I don't think I need backing that statement up to anyone who's seen the last episode.

[Darksnider05]

You don't understand the concept of attainder and what Sansa was suggesting be done to the Karstarks and Umbers?

[Dickon Khaleesi]

13 minutes ago, Pandean said:

How is "I loved father and Robb but they did stupid things and they died for them"

smacking Jon in the face and despicable?

Considering the known fact that Ned and Robb did nothing "stupid" but we're simply betrayed hard when the opportunity came and died for that only reason.

[winter daughter]

56 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Yeah well she's not really one for self judgement never has been, so calling her dead family stupid when one died for her and the other died via the worst betrayal in centuries and a slight against her peoples gods.  She's got foot mouth disease in the extreme.

Wrong.

"I came here every day when I was a girl. I prayed to be somewhere else. back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl."

[Lord Okra]

31 minutes ago, Dickon Khaleesi said:

Considering the known fact that Ned and Robb did nothing "stupid" but we're simply betrayed hard when the opportunity came and died for that only reason.

Robb broke his oath.  Then, he beheaded Lord Karstark (costing himself much of his army).

Ned just didn't want to play the GoT at all and he died for it.....after betryaing his own honor no less.  So, he couldn't keep his mouth shut......then, he refused to act first......then, he actually trusted Cersie/Joffrey and lied to protect his daughters/himself only to be killed anyway.

I'd say costing yourself the two largest allied armies over some ass is stupid.

I'd say running your mouth about what you know and then not acting on it is stupid....

[Illiterati]

3 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Robb broke his oath.  Then, he beheaded Lord Karstark (costing himself much of his army).

Ned just didn't want to play the GoT at all and he died for it.....after betryaing his own honor no less.  So, he couldn't keep his mouth shut......then, he refused to act first......then, he actually trusted Cersie/Joffrey and lied to protect his daughters/himself only to be killed anyway.

I'd say costing yourself the two largest allied armies over some ass is stupid.

I'd say running your mouth about what you know and then not acting on it is stupid....

Correct.

It isn't that they were stupid.  They were REALLY, REALLY stupid.

[Lord Okra]

49 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

You don't understand the concept of attainder and what Sansa was suggesting be done to the Karstarks and Umbers?

She suggested they be stripped of their lands.

It is right after this scene and hearing Jon's speech (after advising different) that she tells Jon he is good at ruling.

I mean, Sansa seems smitten with Jon from their first reunion.  Not in a sexual way but in a "he's my brother" kind of way.  She's so proud of Jon and wants Jon to rule the North for a long time.  She really is always trying to help him in show since they first come together.

Sansa has been through a lot.  Everybody has betrayed and abused her.  Including her aunt and her savior, LF.

[Capo Ferro]

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

How is "I loved father and Robb but they did stupid things and they died for them"

smacking Jon in the face and despicable?

 

She loved her father and her brother, and she's right, they DID do stupid things and DID die over them. She wants Jon not to make the same mistakes, because guess what, she cares about him and doesn't want him to die.

Robb made many mistakes as KitN and he ended up dying. Ned made mistakes as HotK and died.

Glorifying Robb and Ned and ignoring that they did do stupid things and did die for them is not going to help anyone, much less the new KitN. 

What should she have said "Robb and Father did everything perfect and wonderful and they only died because the world was cruel and unfair?"

She gave legit, helpful advice. 

By that logic, when Ser Jorah told Dany "Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably, Rhaegar fought vailantly, and Rhaegar died." should be considered disrespectful and rude and mean, etc.

I wouldn't say despicable, but there is an unStarkness to it that is important and it's why there's been tension between Sansa and Jon and between Sansa and Arya.  Sansa looks at the world now from a very consequentialist point of view.  She judges actions by whether they bring consequences she wants or consequences she doesn't want.  And it's maybe a bigger argument than this thread whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, though I think that question is certainly one of the things being explored by the book and the series. Jon and Ned and Arya seem to be on the other side.  They seem to have a much more non-consequentialist world view bound up in ideas of duty to family and honor.  So they're easily driven to do things that have bad results for noble reasons (e.g the "stupid" thing that Ned did that got him killed was to confront Cersei and give her a chance to leave King's Landing with her children, or the "stupid" things Jon has done -- riding out to meet Rickon, returning the Karstarks and Umbers to their lands).  Sansa has meanwhile done sensible things in shady ways (summoning Littlefinger) or opposed the rash but noble actions of her brother. 

Cersei is on the same side as Sansa in that sense -- her thorough consequentialism and disinterest in any non-consequentialist claim as to what is right and wrong.  

Does that make Sansa like Cersei?  Probably not but I think the show is leading us to circumstances under which we either establish that you can be consequentialist without becoming a Cersei Lannister or Sansa has to reexamine and maybe abandon her interest in consequences.  Maybe that's where the quarrel with Arya is driving things?

[bb1180]

No,  I really don't see it.  Sansa is not without her faults and clearly feels underappreciated (and gets an attitude about it once in a while),  but that doesn't make her anything close to Cersei.  She's had opportunities to undermine Jon in his absence,  but instead, seems be genuinely working in his best interests and to keep order in the North under difficult circumstances. She's certainly acting more rational than either of her two siblings currently at Winterfell right now.     

[Infeth]

38 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

I wouldn't say despicable, but there is an unStarkness to it that is important and it's why there's been tension between Sansa and Jon and between Sansa and Arya.  Sansa looks at the world now from a very consequentialist point of view.  She judges actions by whether they bring consequences she wants or consequences she doesn't want.  And it's maybe a bigger argument than this thread whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, though I think that question is certainly one of the things being explored by the book and the series. Jon and Ned and Arya seem to be on the other side.  They seem to have a much more non-consequentialist world view bound up in ideas of duty to family and honor.  So they're easily driven to do things that have bad results for noble reasons (e.g the "stupid" thing that Ned did that got him killed was to confront Cersei and give her a chance to leave King's Landing with her children, or the "stupid" things Jon has done -- riding out to meet Rickon, returning the Karstarks and Umbers to their lands).  Sansa has meanwhile done sensible things in shady ways (summoning Littlefinger) or opposed the rash but noble actions of her brother. 

This!

You managed to put words on what I think! I give you an A+! <3

Cersei is Sansa's first incarnation of power because all her family appeared weak and unadequate to her, ofc they were very strong and brave, but remember what Daenerys said about things that can't be flexible... 

It is obvious she is a very big part of her personality in her own construction. Once Cersei showed her power, LF showed her how to obtain it and keep it, and then Ramsey proved her the necessity of being powerful : survival.

So, she can use the same face as Cersei, she can use the same attitude, you always do the things the way you learned, she may rule with the same pragmatism, but with much better intention and without cruelty.

[John Meta]

I think that Sansa is becoming Cersei and Littlefinger; but the difference she will use her powers for good. Which I hope because I'll be honest, I like Littlefinger because of his intellect; but I hate he uses his powers for bad and always wished he would be a character that turned to the Stark side. I don't think this will happen, but I think even better may be that Sansa fulfills this role.

Sansa is the odd-out for now, her other three siblings have so much under their belt, that I am thinking it is now Sansa's turn to shine. I hope she will come out of this thing with Arya as coming into her own, and showing Arya how she has also learned a thing or two; and perhaps Arya will learn respect and admiration for her.

Then we would finally have each Stark take their place on the proverbial super-team: Jon super-commander, Arya super-assassin, "Bran" super-seer and Sansa super-sneak. Feels right to me.

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Dickon Khaleesi said:

Considering the known fact that Ned and Robb did nothing "stupid" but we're simply betrayed hard when the opportunity came and died for that only reason.

ummm

 

Robb:

*Broke Oath to Walder Frey to marry some foreign girl 

*Killed Rickard Karstark despite everyone telling him to keep him as a hostage as to not lose the Karstark men

*Sent Theon to the Iron Islands despite being told otherwise

Ned:

*Tells Cersei beforehand he's going to tell Robert about everything and thus setting up Robert's death and his own death

*Refusing to play the Game and being killed due to lack of political savvy

*Nearly refusing to confess and thus both almost condemning not only his life but Sansa's

*Trusting Littlefinger

 

How are any of these smart? These actions caused both their own downfall.

Sansa saying that both Ned and Robb made stupid choices and both paid for it is not despicable, it's true.