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Sansa becoming Cersei


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13 minutes ago, Pandean said:

They have a point, though.

Conditioning wise, we are more likely to view a women with a man's traits of authority as being more bitchy. Sansa, Cersei, Dany, Olenna, Arya, Catelyn, etc. It happens in real life too. Traits of men are considered 'bossy' or bitchy on woman.

It isn't about the patriarchy, it's about how societies work and how we do, like it or not, tend to unconsciously view the different sexes different for the same or similar actions.

And it would make sense that as Sansa takes more power and authority over Winterfell, some of the reasons she's compared to certain characters or called a bitch might stem (whether consciously or unconsciously) from that social view.

I don't think anyone thinks that it's straight out "Women ruling are bitchy". It's mainly and usually unconscious thoughts. 

Also, all you said about that post was "P.S. to the poster etc. etc. go back to SJW school" so unless I missed something, I don't know what your connection was because you didn't say anything about it other than that. If you did say something regarding their post other than that, I'd love to see it, however.

 

I see your point, however I respectfully disagree that I have been conditioned to view women in those positions as bitchy or bossy.  It's a character analysis that I believe holds true, regardless of my gender or theirs. Regarding the SJW comment I'm just fed up with being told that my social and cultural conditioning completely dictates how I view the world when the poster knows nothing about me: it was meant to be a snarky dig.

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36 minutes ago, Pandean said:

They have a point, though.

Conditioning wise, we are more likely to view a women with a man's traits of authority as being more bitchy. Sansa, Cersei, Dany, Olenna, Arya, Catelyn, etc. It happens in real life too. Traits of men are considered 'bossy' or bitchy on woman.

It isn't about the patriarchy, it's about how societies work and how we do, like it or not, tend to unconsciously view the different sexes different for the same or similar actions.

And it would make sense that as Sansa takes more power and authority over Winterfell, some of the reasons she's compared to certain characters or called a bitch might stem (whether consciously or unconsciously) from that social view.

I don't think anyone thinks that it's straight out "Women ruling are bitchy". It's mainly and usually unconscious thoughts. 

I agree there is definitely a social stigma attached to how people view those of a particular gender in certain roles.

For example, how male nurses, dancers, gymnasts or administrative workers can be looked down upon or mocked and how female workers  in primarily male dominated roles (construction, sport, executive positions, etc) may be labelled 'rough', 'weak' or 'butch' by some small minded people.

I also agree that people's actions are often viewed differently depending on their gender, particularly those of a sexual nature. 

For me though, using the women you named for example, I think every one of them has had genuinely bitchy character moments, but Cersei is the only one who I would regard as a complete bitch...the others are mostly strong, likeable women. In Cerseis case, my revulsion has nothing to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her being Cersei Lannister (a selfish, spiteful, hateful cunt with no redeeming qualities whatsoever - even her love for her children, which was genuine, she used as a tool to ultimately serve herself first). 

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9 minutes ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

I see your point, however I respectfully disagree that I have been conditioned to view women in those positions as bitchy or bossy.  It's a character analysis that I believe holds true, regardless of my gender or theirs. Regarding the SJW comment I'm just fed up with being told that my social and cultural conditioning completely dictates how I view the world when the poster knows nothing about me: it was meant to be a snarky dig.

I see. I can understand that.

On the topic:

I'd like to point out that it's not a bad thing that social and cultural conditioning has a say in how we view the world. EVERYONE is like that. It's not a conscious thing. It doesn't make you bad or good. Society has norms, folkways, mores that we don't even think about or consciously know that are ingrained inside of us. It doesn't make us bad or sexist or racist or anything. It makes us people who live in a society or culture.

Being affected by it doesn't make you as a human being terrible or anything. And there is a high chance that a lot of the things you see and opinions you form are somehow touched with the things we unconsciously learn.

It's sociology. How societies work.

I was a sociology major for years until I got sick and couldn't continue classes and it's so interesting to learn about it.

It doesn't completely dictate how one views the world, but it does play a part in all of our decisions and opinions. How great or small depends.

It doesn't make you bad or good or anything. Makes you human. And different societies and cultures make things different! Hell, different parenting styles make those things different! Different friend groups, etc.

I don't think you were trying to come off in a bad way at all. I don't think you meant it that way or view it that way.

I'm more so saying that it's true we view things from cultural and societal lenses is all.

__

 

Back to the show, anyway.

I think Sansa may have picked up things from Cersei but the major difference is Sansa is a compassionate person who does care about those under her rule. Otherwise she wouldn't be stocking up for Winter or making armor better or trying to get all the Northern lords to come together while Jon's gone, etc. Cersei was the first person to teach Sansa about power but she was hardly the last. And we know Sansa despises Cersei.

So I don't think she's becoming Cersei. I think she has learned from her, especially about what not to do, but her compassion, dedication, and loyalty sets her apart from Cersei--a ruler who only looks out for herself, never weighs her decisions, and doesn't care for anyone but herself.

Sansa has her flaws but I can't see her as Cersei. 

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16 minutes ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

I see your point, however I respectfully disagree that I have been conditioned to view women in those positions as bitchy or bossy.  It's a character analysis that I believe holds true, regardless of my gender or theirs. Regarding the SJW comment I'm just fed up with being told that my social and cultural conditioning completely dictates how I view the world when the poster knows nothing about me: it was meant to be a snarky dig.

The snarky dig was all yours, pal.  I gave a fairly deep explanation peppered with examples, and your response was a well thought out and articulately expressed, "Go back to SJW school."

 

I'll reiterate:  If Tywin, or Eddard, or Tyrion, had used attention toward papers as a queue to end a conversation, I seriously doubt you would have found arrogant abuse of authority that would remind one of Cersei in that action, and pinning childish politically charged labels on anyone that points it out doesn't bolster your position.

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6 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I agree there is definitely a social stigma attached to how people view those of a particular gender in certain roles.

For example, how male nurses, dancers, gymnasts or administrative workers can be looked down upon or mocked and how female workers  in primarily male dominated roles (construction, sport, executive positions, etc) may be labelled 'rough', 'weak' or 'butch' by some small minded people.

I also agree that people's actions are often viewed differently depending on their gender, particularly those of a sexual nature. 

For me though, using the women you named for example, I think every one of them has had genuinely bitchy character moments, but Cersei is the only one who I would regard as a complete bitch...the others are mostly strong, likeable women. In Cerseis case, my revulsion has nothing to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her being Cersei Lannister (a selfish, spiteful, hateful cunt with no redeeming qualities whatsoever - even her love for her children, which was genuine, she used as a tool to ultimately serve herself first). 

 

Yeah. Or how men have a harder time getting mental health help or getting custody of children because those are considered 'feminine' or 'nurturing' or even 'weak' and males aren't 'supposed' to be like that. 

When I was in rehab for my eating disorder we had a discussion about men with eating disorders. The place I was at was for women but they were thinking of founding a place for men too since there is so few. Men die quite a bit from mental health issues due to the stigma and belief it's a 'weak, feminine' type of thing. Only sissy-boys need shrinks. 

Oh definitely! All those characters have bitchy character moments. I was just naming women in GoT with power off the top of my head and that sometimes the actions of women and the same actions by men can be viewed differently and that if someone digs deep down, they might be able to find a comparison like that. Hell, the guys also have their asshole moments. Everyone does. 

And I agree with Cersei. Her one sort of redeeming character trait is her love for her children but even that is used for her own end and to serve herself (I mean, how she treats Tommen both in the show and book is....*shudder*).

That's why I can't see Sansa like Cersei. Yes, Sansa has made her fair share of bad moves. But she ultimately is a compassionate person who cares for others and her family and I can't see her ever becoming like Cersei. I mean, Sansa also hates Cersei with a furious passion. 

She might have learned things from Cersei--especially how NOT to rule, but I think Sansa, again while making her fair share of mistakes, is ultimately a very different ruler and person, from Cersei Lannister.

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3 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

 

I'll reiterate:  If Tywin, or Eddard, or Tyrion, had used attention toward papers as a queue to end a conversation, I seriously doubt you would have found arrogant abuse of authority that would remind one of Cersei in that action, and pinning childish politically charged labels on anyone that points it out doesn't bolster your position.

Isn't there a scene were Tywin ignores Tyrion for a good amount of time while doing Hand of the King work while Tyrion wants to speak to him?

I remember thinking Tywin was a dick but not for that part, for what he said after.

So, while I didn't think Sansa did anything wrong by using the whole papers thing to end the conversation. I feel like you have a very very fair point here.

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4 minutes ago, Pandean said:

She might have learned things from Cersei--especially how NOT to rule, but I think Sansa, again while making her fair share of mistakes, is ultimately a very different ruler and person, from Cersei Lannister.

Absolutely she is.

Sansa, like everyone, has her weaknesses, but unlike Cersei she also has an abundance of redeeming qualities. She is trying her best to rule Winterfell and protect her people wisely until Jon returns, so on that alone she is far better than Cersei. 

Cersei would happily kill every single commoner in the Seven Kingdoms if it meant she could destroy her enemies and consolidate her power absolutely. 

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16 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Absolutely she is.

Sansa, like everyone, has her weaknesses, but unlike Cersei she also has an abundance of redeeming qualities. She is trying her best to rule Winterfell and protect her people wisely until Jon returns, so on that alone she is far better than Cersei. 

Cersei would happily kill every single commoner in the Seven Kingdoms if it meant she could destroy her enemies and consolidate her power absolutely. 

Cersei would happily kill in the Seven Kingdom's if it meant she could destroy her enemies and get absolute power.

She's also the ultimate crazy Mother-in-Law

Cersei: *endangers smallfolk, starves smallfolk because who cares about Winter, kills all her allies, sees danger everywhere, has a sort of sick possession over her eldest son, makes terrible life-ruining decisions, etc.*

Also Cersei: These people are idiots to see I'm not the best Queen Westeros will ever have

 

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3 hours ago, Pandean said:

Cersei would happily kill in the Seven Kingdom's if it meant she could destroy her enemies and get absolute power.

One reason the plan to prove the existence of the Army of the Dead to Cersei is so stupid is that she'd probably try to make a deal with the WW and their zombie army if it meant stabbing her rivals in the back. The Faith Militant was just a practice run.

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5 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I don't get it. What has Sansa done that's remotely Cersei-esque? Arya is the cold-blooded killer of the Stark sisters, and frankly the more annoying at the moment.

She pulled a power move dismissing Brienne.  Women should know their place!

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17 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

One reason the plan to prove the existence of the Army of the Dead to Cersei is so stupid is that she'd probably try to make a deal with the WW and their zombie army if it meant stabbing her rivals in the back. The Faith Militant was just a practice run.

Cersei's a cold enough bitch to become the Night Queen.

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1 minute ago, Kytheros said:

Sansa's not becoming Cersei. Sansa might be becoming a (much younger) Olenna.

I just want Sansa to become her own women. Influenced by others, yes, but I want her to utilize those influences and not be utilized by them, you know what I mean?

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9 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I just want Sansa to become her own women. Influenced by others, yes, but I want her to utilize those influences and not be utilized by them, you know what I mean?

Good point. Yes. I would like that more than her becoming young!Olenna.

 

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True. I probably should have said Sansa's becoming similar to a younger Olenna.

Hopefully, anyways. As the scheming, manipulative, ruthless mastermind Olenna is probably the "best" such character for Sansa to model her behavior on - that Olenna wasn't out for personal gain like Littlefinger and Cersei, but was looking to protect her family and their interests, whatever the means necessary to do so.

If Sansa can turn the lessons she learned towards the good of her family and their interests, not just herself, that would be a good thing, IMO.

 

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6 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I just want Sansa to become her own women. Influenced by others, yes, but I want her to utilize those influences and not be utilized by them, you know what I mean?

I should hope so. Olenna is not a nice person at all. Heaps better than Cersei, sure, but that is (as always) damning with faint praise rather than an actual compliment.

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Not becoming Cersei on the show thus far.

What she is though is the only one of the political figures on the side of the "good guys" who is not too stupid to live.

Tyrion should be fed to a dragon for his advice this season, and Jon and Dany deserve whatever Cersei has planned for them for following his advice. 

Contrast with Sansa. Invite from Cersei and she refuses, the only one of them with any sense.

All hail Sansa, the rightful queen of Westeros. 

 

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On 8/22/2017 at 3:20 PM, Lady Sansa Stark said:

I really don't know where people keep getting these 'signs' that Sansa is as powerhungry, torturous, terrible etc. etc. etc. as Cersei, especially not if you follow her character development (to the extent that this even exists in Weisseroff). Sansa had to send Brienne away to keep her from Littlefinger's schemes, so of course she's not going to be nice about it when Brienne refuses to leave. But all Sansa has done this season is taking care of her people, defending Jon, trying to understand her siblings (except in the discussion with Arya and that made two of them, so..), and keeping the North together while Jon is off with no time to send some ravens. 

But, please enlighten me because I fail to see how that is similar to killing children, blowing up the Sept/half of King's Landing, torturing people just for the heck of it and having no regard for other people whatsoever? Sansa learnt a lot from Cersei, yes. She learnt how not to rule like Cersei did (see the Blackwater episode for example), how not to let revenge consume her completely, how to inspire loyalty based on love instead of fear, how to keep your mask etc. etc. If you think Sansa's going to turn into Cersei, then you haven't been paying attention.

Remember when Sansa's husband to be was cutting a little boy's face for no reason and Sansa's only concern was basically "Don't stop him Arya, you're going to ruin my chance to become a queen" It's easy to sympathize with Sansa because of what she's been through but I'm betting it's only made her more hungry for power. I guess what it comes down to is even though she doesn't trust Littlefinger, the fact that she even lets him near her makes me suspect her because she knows he is no good but also knows he can help her manipulate people.

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