Episode Title: The Dragon and the Wolf

[4 Eyed Crow]

5 hours ago, tugela said:

No, he killed Ghost and used his shrunken head as a sword pommel. Jon is like that. Evil to the bone.

So that means ... for the past few seasons, every time people saw Jon accompanied by a white direwolf, it was either mass hysteria or a ghost of Ghost?

[UnViserion]

7 hours ago, tugela said:

No, he killed Ghost and used his shrunken head as a sword pommel. Jon is like that. Evil to the bone.

 

[Gala]

On 23.08.2017 at 2:48 PM, RhaenysB said:

Well my point still stands in this case. Jon is not a wolf. But of course nobody gives a shit about this because dragon and wolf sounds cool and that's as far as the show's "thinking" goes. 

I don't think the society matters in this case...we are talking about magic and blood. You cannot deny that Jon actually got a direwolf along with other Stark kids. Jon's mother was a wolf and she apparently counts in this case, since Jon has Ghost. The evidence is that he is a wolf from the book 1.

Although, I do agree that the name of the episode was chosen by the showrunners because it sounds cool.

[RhaenysBee]

4 hours ago, Gala said:

I don't think the society matters in this case...we are talking about magic and blood. You cannot deny that Jon actually got a direwolf along with other Stark kids. Jon's mother was a wolf and she apparently counts in this case, since Jon has Ghost. The evidence is that he is a wolf from the book 1.

Although, I do agree that the name of the episode was chosen by the showrunners because it sounds cool.

But that means Sansa and Arya are fishes because their mother is a Tully. Or is everybody the pet they own? jeor Mormont is a raven? And Ramsay is a dog? That's stupid. 

and it's exactly the first season that establishes that a kid is whatever "sigil" their father is. When Sansa says Joffrey is a golden lion, Arya corrects her that he's a stag. That's what inspires Ned to look into Joffrey. 

 

[Gala]

1 hour ago, RhaenysB said:

But that means Sansa and Arya are fishes because their mother is a Tully. Or is everybody the pet they own? jeor Mormont is a raven? And Ramsay is a dog? That's stupid. 

and it's exactly the first season that establishes that a kid is whatever "sigil" their father is. When Sansa says Joffrey is a golden lion, Arya corrects her that he's a stag. That's what inspires Ned to look into Joffrey. 

 

The idea is in case of Jon (as well as other Stark kids) and Daenerys for that matter - not the lineage matters, but magic and the fact that Starks are descendants of the First Men that still worship the Old Gods and they are skinchangers, powerful ones actually, that is why they got their "sigil pets". Mormont women joke that they mate with bears, but I'm guessing they are also skinchangers. Ramsey's "love" to his dogs - is a mocking version of bonding with such a powerful and magical creature like direwolf. It doesn't matter what the sigil is...magic and blood matters...Lyanna's blood matters. It has nothing to do with the society rules - lion, stag, fish, wolf or bear. It comes with the Old Gods and magic. That is just my personal opinion.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

15 minutes ago, Gala said:

The idea is in case of Jon (as well as other Stark kids) and Daenerys for that matter - not the lineage matters, but magic and the fact that Starks are descendants of the First Men that still worship the Old Gods and they are skinchangers, powerful ones actually, that is why they got their "sigil pets". Mormont women joke that they mate with bears, but I'm guessing they are also skinchangers. Ramsey's "love" to his dogs - is a mocking version of bonding with such a powerful and magical creature like direwolf. It doesn't matter what the sigil is...magic and blood matters...Lyanna's blood matters. It has nothing to do with the society rules - lion, stag, fish, wolf or bear. It comes with the Old Gods and magic. That is just my personal opinion.

Plus Jon is called the White Wolf. And Daenerys is called Mother of Dragons. I think the title is about them and Jon's parents. 

[LucyMormont]

9 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

But that means Sansa and Arya are fishes because their mother is a Tully. Or is everybody the pet they own? jeor Mormont is a raven? And Ramsay is a dog? That's stupid. 

and it's exactly the first season that establishes that a kid is whatever "sigil" their father is. When Sansa says Joffrey is a golden lion, Arya corrects her that he's a stag. That's what inspires Ned to look into Joffrey. 

 

But we know that Joffrey's sigil had both Baratheon's stag and Lannister's lion, it was a combination of both his parent's houses (his apparent parents). And we are not talking of king Joffrey, who could take the sigil he wanted,  young Joffrey used that combinated sigil when he went to Winterfell. 

In the books, there's even a conversation Jon and Arya had about that, in the sense that House Lannister is too proud to be hidden behind another sigil, even if it's a royal one, and Arya likes that the mother's house reflects in the sigil, and Jon jokes that she should do that too, and she pictures a wolf with a fish in his mouth and laughs at the ridiculous image.

So I'm also of the opinion that what matters is blood and magic, the sigil you can design it yourself to fit what you want to express. And as for blood and magic,  Jon is both wolf and dragon. 

 

[RhaenysBee]

13 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

But we know that Joffrey's sigil had both Baratheon's stag and Lannister's lion, it was a combination of both his parent's houses (his apparent parents). And we are not talking of king Joffrey, who could take the sigil he wanted,  young Joffrey used that combinated sigil when he went to Winterfell. 

In the books, there's even a conversation Jon and Arya had about that, in the sense that House Lannister is too proud to be hidden behind another sigil, even if it's a royal one, and Arya likes that the mother's house reflects in the sigil, and Jon jokes that she should do that too, and she pictures a wolf with a fish in his mouth and laughs at the ridiculous image.

So I'm also of the opinion that what matters is blood and magic, the sigil you can design it yourself to fit what you want to express. And as for blood and magic,  Jon is both wolf and dragon. 

 

So we are still at "both wolf and dragon" and not just wolf. 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I saw it referring to:

Rhaegar and Lyanna

Jon himself

House Targaryen (Jon and Dany) and House Stark (Arya, Sansa and Bran)

'The lone wolf dies but the pack survives', the pack is clearly Arya, Sansa and Bran, in Winterfell, with the heart tree.

Jon is on the Targ boat, he enters the room with the Targ sigil. The two scenes of Ice and Fire are contrasted.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

11 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I saw it referring to:

Rhaegar and Lyanna

Jon himself

House Targaryen (Jon and Dany) and House Stark (Arya, Sansa and Bran)

'The lone wolf dies but the pack survives', the pack is clearly Arya, Sansa and Bran, in Winterfell, with the heart tree.

Jon is on the Targ boat, he enters the room with the Targ sigil. The two scenes of Ice and Fire are contrasted.

I think you are right.  But I think Jon is still part of the pack and still part of the family. Sansa is ruling as his regent. What he said to Theon about not needing to choose between Greyjoy and Stark applies to Jon too. 

[LucyMormont]

5 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I think you are right.  But I think Jon is still part of the pack and still part of the family. Sansa is ruling as his regent. What he said to Theon about not needing to choose between Greyjoy and Stark applies to Jon too. 

It was so obvious that they had him speak those lines because they apply to himself. When he said to Theon that Ned was more of a father to him than Lord Greyjoy ever was, and that despite everything, Ned is still part of Theon like he is part of Jon himself; all this was for the audience to know that Jon might eventually have to accept and come to terms to his dragon part, but he will never cease to be also a wolf. Maybe a slighty different one, but he always was, as it was simbolically and beautifully portrayed by Ghost being an albino and having been found at a short distance from his siblings. So, the "bastard" brother turn out to be a cousin and adoptive brother, from the pack point of view it's not that much of a difference.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

30 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

It was so obvious that they had him speak those lines because they apply to himself. When he said to Theon that Ned was more of a father to him than Lord Greyjoy ever was, and that despite everything, Ned is still part of Theon like he is part of Jon himself; all this was for the audience to know that Jon might eventually have to accept and come to terms to his dragon part, but he will never cease to be also a wolf. Maybe a slighty different one, but he always was, as it was simbolically and beautifully portrayed by Ghost being an albino and having been found at a short distance from his siblings. So, the "bastard" brother turn out to be a cousin and adoptive brother, from the pack point of view it's not that much of a difference.

Yup. I doubt there will be a rift between Jon and his Stark relatives now. Over and over again they keep saying how protective of Jon Arya is. I dont think that will change. She might end up being more protective of him when they find out how their father protected him from outsiders by making up this lie.