Dawn of Fyre

Arya Stark - An Unprovoked attack?

304 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Kizzle said:

From Littlefinger of course. 

Sansa got the dagger from Littlefinger so she could kill Bran with it in season 1?   You mean before they even met?  

 

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Just now, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The only problematic part this season is why Arya got so aggressive with Sansa but even then, Sansa did threaten her with 'men loyal'. The writers as shown by the 'behind the episode' understand Sansa and care about Sansa's perspective more than Arya's. So its not so surprising that Arya's motivations look cloudy where Sansa's are very simplistic. 

That's why I tried to outline Arya's motivation for being so aggressive. Her past experience, and knowledge, is what has contributed to this outcome. I mean, Arya knows House Bolton betrayed House Stark, and then when she (presumably) learned that Sansa married Ramsay... would that not make her suspicious. "In what circumstance would that happen?" is what Arya would have been asking herself.

From my point of view, who has read all the avaible books, watched the show several times, I can see her motivation clearly. I remember the events in season 1 that caused the rift between them (the Trident), etc. I remember Arya being cupbearer to Tywin when Littlefinger joins him for breakfast or dinner. So imagine what Arya was thinking when she saw Littlefinger in Winterfell, beside Sansa...

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Just now, Dawn of Fyre said:

1) No she did not kill Mycah, but her lying about what happened at the Trident got him killed, and her own direwolf.

2) Going straight to Bran would be poor writing since it would be just for convenience-sake. And we must assume she knows Sansa married Ramsay without being forced like she was with Tyrion - it would have been brought up beforehand, insofar as Sansa would have lied to the other lords and said she was forced to marry Ramsay, which would make sense since the Knights of the Vale know she was in the Vale before marrying Ramsay. So there is no where she could have lied about the marriage not being consensual. - She knows Littlefinger was with Tywin at either Harrenhal or the Dreadfort, so she knows he was conspiring with the Lannisters while they war with the Starks. She knows Roose played a major part in the Red Wedding, too. These three facts are pretty damning, no?

3) Refer to my second response. Arya and Sansa were never tight, and what I've written before should show how distrustful Arya is of Sansa at this moment. They can't just sit down and have a calm conversation, no matter how much we might want that - that would be bad writing. They are strangers to each other now, and Arya is much to suspect of her sister to calmly listen. Arya was said to have wolves blood in her system, which makes her hotheaded. And trying to have a calm conversation with someone hotheaded is not so simple. And the many people who have issues with Arya are the ones who have no remembered the points I originally brought up about what she knows about certain events. And Bran could shed light on the situation, but that would defeat the whole purpose sine the writers needed some drama to last through the season. That is not bad writing... Resolving every plot-point in every logical fashion does necessarily not = good TV.

4) A reconciliation with Arya and Sansa could unfold in season 8 - they won't ever have the same relationship like Arya has with Jon, was what I was getting at, but they might become civil to one another, even grow to trust each other.

1. You do understand that Hound killed Mycah LONG BEFORE Sansa's testimony? Unless you invoke some sort of time travelling argument, it doesn't make much sense.

2. No one knows the marriage was consensual. Lord Royce is suspecting of LF. so no one knows whether Sansa really agreed to it, or LF made her. Yes, she knows about Roose and Freys, she knows about Littlefinger, but she never asks any questions. I agree that these things look damning, but Arya does nothing to figure out the current situation. Is she angry at Jon for allowing LF to stay there? 

3. No, this is bad writing. Them talking and resolving the issue, that is what both of them are more than capable of. We have seen Sansa talking to Jon and telling him everything. Arya is also good at figuring things out, she went through a training, and she would be able to understand the current situation. But, what we see is almost lack of trying. Not only that she has prejudices against Sansa, she is not even ready to listen, or far worse investigate the current situation. There is a meme going around the net about this. It just points out ridiculous her accusations are.

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Just now, Dawn of Fyre said:

That's why I tried to outline Arya's motivation for being so aggressive. Her past experience, and knowledge, is what has contributed to this outcome. I mean, Arya knows House Bolton betrayed House Stark, and then when she (presumably) learned that Sansa married Ramsay... would that not make her suspicious. "In what circumstance would that happen?" is what Arya would have been asking herself.

From my point of view, who has read all the avaible books, watched the show several times, I can see her motivation clearly. I remember the events in season 1 that caused the rift between them (the Trident), etc. I remember Arya being cupbearer to Tywin when Littlefinger joins him for breakfast or dinner. So imagine what Arya was thinking when she saw Littlefinger in Winterfell, beside Sansa...

And it would have been very easy for Arya to vocalise her POV but they don't let her. I'm not sure why.

We have Sansa saying 'you don't know how much I've suffered' and I kind of like that Arya does not compete on that. Arya has suffered differently but its not a competition. She has seen rapists all over the Riverlands and women they prey on. She's seen brutality Sansa can't contemplate even from Ramsey. Suffering isn't an exclusive. But they let Sansa have that. Without Arya countering, viewers accept that Sansa had it so much harder. 

We also have Sansa say that Arya should be on her knees thanking her for getting rid of the Boltons. Arya doesn't counter that she exterminated the male line of House Frey without an innocent getting their blood spilled. Sansa sacrificed Northern armies for her triumph. But Arya doesn't compete and the audience accepts that Sansa has done great things unparalleled.

Sansa says that Arya didn't try to rescue Ned. Arya does not say she was actively stopped by Yoren, nor that she was a little girl, homeless, alone in Fleabottom while her father was imprisoned and Sansa was writing that letter. So the viewers accept that Arya was just as complacent about things as Sansa. 

They never allow Arya on the front foot unless she's waving a knife about. But I've said it before and I'll say it again. BOTH OF THEM ARE AS BAD AS EACH OTHER.

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17 minutes ago, Risto said:

1. You do understand that Hound killed Mycah LONG BEFORE Sansa's testimony? Unless you invoke some sort of time travelling argument, it doesn't make much sense.

2. No one knows the marriage was consensual. Lord Royce is suspecting of LF. so no one knows whether Sansa really agreed to it, or LF made her. Yes, she knows about Roose and Freys, she knows about Littlefinger, but she never asks any questions. I agree that these things look damning, but Arya does nothing to figure out the current situation. Is she angry at Jon for allowing LF to stay there? 

3. No, this is bad writing. Them talking and resolving the issue, that is what both of them are more than capable of. We have seen Sansa talking to Jon and telling him everything. Arya is also good at figuring things out, she went through a training, and she would be able to understand the current situation. But, what we see is almost lack of trying. Not only that she has prejudices against Sansa, she is not even ready to listen, or far worse investigate the current situation. There is a meme going around the net about this. It just points out ridiculous her accusations are.

1) Sansa lied about it all the same.

2) Come on, now you're stretching it. If the Lord Royce suspected Littlefinger of forcing Sansa to marry Ramsay... would he not have intervened or arrested him?

3) This is not bad writing, not for me. "Them talking and resolving the issue, that is what both of them are more than capable of." Yes, you're correct. But you're failing to understand the dynamic situation between them - Arya is hot-headed, highly suspicious of her sister, and the concern she feels over a potential betrayal is overriding her common sense. And this is a show, so resolving the issue in one episode would have meant that there was no other material for them to use - they are saving Bran for the next episode. Having him spill everything in one episode would have been bad writing.

With a character with so much power like Bran, you have to be conservative. The moment he gained the ability to see the past, present, and future? He became a pseudo-dues-ex-machina. He could resolve all these issues with a snap of his fingers, but the show needs to build drama, etc. Bran the character is the problem; he creates scenarios  where people just keep saying "why doesn't he do this or that..." by just existing.

 

Edited by Dawn of Fyre

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4 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

And it would have been very easy for Arya to vocalise her POV but they don't let her. I'm not sure why.

We have Sansa saying 'you don't know how much I've suffered' and I kind of like that Arya does not compete on that. Arya has suffered differently but its not a competition. She has seen rapists all over the Riverlands and women they prey on. She's seen brutality Sansa can't contemplate even from Ramsey. Suffering isn't an exclusive. But they let Sansa have that. Without Arya countering, viewers accept that Sansa had it so much harder. 

We also have Sansa say that Arya should be on her knees thanking her for getting rid of the Boltons. Arya doesn't counter that she exterminated the male line of House Frey without an innocent getting their blood spilled. Sansa sacrificed Northern armies for her triumph. But Arya doesn't compete and the audience accepts that Sansa has done great things unparalleled.

Sansa says that Arya didn't try to rescue Ned. Arya does not say she was actively stopped by Yoren, nor that she was a little girl, homeless, alone in Fleabottom while her father was imprisoned and Sansa was writing that letter. So the viewers accept that Arya was just as complacent about things as Sansa. 

They never allow Arya on the front foot unless she's waving a knife about. But I've said it before and I'll say it again. BOTH OF THEM ARE AS BAD AS EACH OTHER.

Meh, Arya is my Assassin Queen. :) She can ever do evil in my books. Slay them all, I say. Slay them haters.

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23 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Arya doesn't counter that she exterminated the male line of House Frey without an innocent getting their blood spilled. Sansa sacrificed Northern armies for her triumph.

"Sophie, why didn't Sansa just tell Jon about the Vale army?" "the writers didn't tell me. there is no in-universe reason. it was just to build up the tension of the Vale army coming and to make the scene dramatically satisfying."

SDCC 2016

She didn't sacrifice Northern armies for her triumph. she withheld the information because the writers wanted a LOTR style deus ex machina so they made that happen by throwing logic out of the window.

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5 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

"Sophie, why didn't Sansa just tell Jon about the Vale army?" "the writers didn't tell me. there is no in-universe reason. it was just to build up the tension of the Vale army coming and to make the scene dramatically satisfying."

SDCC 2016

She didn't sacrifice Northern armies for her triumph. she withheld the information because the writers wanted a LOTR style deus ex machina so they made that happen by throwing logic out of the window.

The writers' intentions or lack of them does not change what happened on screen

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19 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

We have Sansa saying 'you don't know how much I've suffered' and I kind of like that Arya does not compete on that. Arya has suffered differently but its not a competition. She has seen rapists all over the Riverlands and women they prey on. She's seen brutality Sansa can't contemplate even from Ramsey. Suffering isn't an exclusive. But they let Sansa have that. Without Arya countering, viewers accept that Sansa had it so much harder. 

I am not sure that point was to tell Sansa suffered more. I actually think that Arya was here saying Sansa "You have no idea what suffering" is, which is also problematic, as we know both of them suffered. 

Quote

We also have Sansa say that Arya should be on her knees thanking her for getting rid of the Boltons. Arya doesn't counter that she exterminated the male line of House Frey without an innocent getting their blood spilled. Sansa sacrificed Northern armies for her triumph. But Arya doesn't compete and the audience accepts that Sansa has done great things unparalleled.

OMG, does this need some 10 000 explanations? Sansa didn't sacrifice anyone. Show canon is clear about that. Whether we like it or not.

I think Sansa was defending here from Arya's attacks that she has done nothing. It is not that Sansa is the only one who did something great, more like establishing that she actually did something for her family. 

Quote

 

Sansa says that Arya didn't try to rescue Ned. Arya does not say she was actively stopped by Yoren, nor that she was a little girl, homeless, alone in Fleabottom while her father was imprisoned and Sansa was writing that letter. So the viewers accept that Arya was just as complacent about things as Sansa. 

They never allow Arya on the front foot unless she's waving a knife about. But I've said it before and I'll say it again. BOTH OF THEM ARE AS BAD AS EACH OTHER.

 

You are right, just like Sansa was held by a guard, while she was screaming from the top of her lungs. But, at the end of the day, I would agree that they are both terrible in communication here. It is just that I expected more from Arya. 

26 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

1) Sansa lied about it all the same.

2) Come on, now you're stretching it. If the Lord Royce suspected Littlefinger of forcing Sansa to marry Ramsay... would he not have intervened or arrested him?

3) This is not bad writing, not for me. "Them talking and resolving the issue, that is what both of them are more than capable of." Yes, you're correct. But you're failing to understand the dynamic situation between them - Arya is hot-headed, highly suspicious of her sister, and the concern she feels over a potential betrayal is overriding her common sense. And this is a show, so resolving the issue in one episode would have meant that there was no other material for them to use - they are saving Bran for the next episode. Having him spill everything in one episode would have been bad writing.

With a character with so much power like Bran, you have to be conservative. The moment he gained the ability to see the past, present, and future? He became a pseudo-dues-ex-machina. He could resolve all these issues with a snap of his fingers, but the show needs to build drama, etc. Bran the character is the problem; he creates scenarios  where people just keep saying "why doesn't he do this or that..." by just existing.

1. Yes, and Ned explained it to Arya. Not to mention that the lie itself backfired solely on Sansa. No one else.

2. You do remember that LF holds SR in his pocket? And that he actually almost killed Royce in his own home? Even the actor who played Royce said in an interview that Royce is in precarious situation with LF and that he now has to dance to his tune.

3. Well, that is just the question of taste. I do think that this is the poorest writing for Arya and I think that this amazing character deserves much better storyline. As for Bran, I agree that he now becomes key to all answers, but from Arya's perspective, she should at least try to reach for answers before confronting anyone. Or even be ready to listen. I mean, Arya is much better than this. Simply, she is. She knows better. And that is why this is terrible writing. 

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8 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

"Sophie, why didn't Sansa just tell Jon about the Vale army?" "the writers didn't tell me. there is no in-universe reason. it was just to build up the tension of the Vale army coming and to make the scene dramatically satisfying."

SDCC 2016

She didn't sacrifice Northern armies for her triumph. she withheld the information because the writers wanted a LOTR style deus ex machina so they made that happen by throwing logic out of the window.

Wow.....just when I thought I couldn't lose any more respect for the GoT writers.....

Edited by Gaz0680

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Just now, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The writers' intentions or lack of them does not change what happened on screen

Yes, but the characters' reaction to the said thing does. And none of them believe what you are saying.

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10 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yes, but the characters' reaction to the said thing does. And none of them believe what you are saying.

That Sansa withheld crucial information from Jon about the battle that directly impacted his ability to plan the attack leading to more considerable Northern losses. In Jon and Ned's words 'We need to trust each other. We can't fight a war amongst ourselves'. 

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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9 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

That Sansa withheld crucial information from Jon about the battle that directly impacted his ability to plan the attack leading to more considerable Northern losses. In Jon and Ned's words 'We need to trust each other. We can't fight a war amongst ourselves'. 

You forget that Jon had a plan and that he simply abandoned his plan. Which then caused his army to be put in much more dangerous situation. Jon did have a plan, but Ramsay outplayed him. If only someone had warned him about Ramsay. Oh wait, someone did. 

Simply, the argument that Sansa sacrificed the Northern army is not something anyone in-universe thinks. So, if no one in-universe thinks that Sansa betrayed North, how the hell some viewers came to that conclusion speaks about writing. But that doesn't negate the point that it is not what writers wanted audience to think about her actions. 

Edited by Risto

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3 hours ago, Kizzle said:

Just a theory but I think she's hostile because she recognized the dagger belonged to Sansa and it was Sansa who tried to have Bran killed, That might be why Arya handed it to her, so she would realize Arya knows it was her. If this is so then Sansa's next move might be to try to kill Arya which would explain why she sent Brienne away

How? How would Sansa have that dagger? Please I want to know...

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3 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

It's just pointless conflict that only makes sense if you imagine the characters are idiots who never talk to each other or explain themselves. Writers often seem to like using this sort of thing as a crutch.

I don't explain everything to my sister... Sometimes I just feel likfe I don't have enough strenght to explain. It's something that happens... Not explaining yourself... 

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3 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

For me, reading this chapter was really, really uncomfortable since she used her 'pre-teen' sexuality to actually seduce her victim before assassinating him. Arya is my favorite character in the books alongside Jon Snow, so this scene shocked me to the core - I hated that she cares so little about her own body

Was it Arya? Or was she wearing someone else's face? Wasn't she no one at that time? Wasn't she training herself to become whatever it requires her to become to achieve? In season 6 When Arya is at the Riverrun, she was looking at Jaime... That was seduction... In order to "kill" him right? But she wasn't Arya... That was another person's face. I might be off tracks... I don't know...

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13 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

Was it Arya? Or was she wearing someone else's face? Wasn't she no one at that time? Wasn't she training herself to become whatever it requires her to become to achieve? In season 6 When Arya is at the Riverrun, she was looking at Jaime... That was seduction... In order to "kill" him right? But she wasn't Arya... That was another person's face. I might be off tracks... I don't know...

I think she was wearing the face of someone called Mercy. But you have to remember, in the books wearing faces is limited. You can't change your height or sex, or even weight. So her Mercy mask only changed her facial features, not body. So she was still visibly Eleven or Twelve, and she seduced Raff who is like 30 - he kissed her, all tongue, and she later felt his erection through his pants right before she cut the vein in his leg. Normally, I wouldn't care. But this is Arya, and it made my stomach churn. :( She feels like a sister or daughter to me, so I get defensive when she's put into those situations.

It's the only moment in the books thus far that I hated reading. I don't want Arya to give her soul for revenge. I don't want her to sell her body to cross a name off her list. :(

Edited by Dawn of Fyre

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Sounds like I need to rewatch the Harrenhal? scenes where Arya is cupbearer and hears a conversation between Tywin and Littlefinger.  I don't much recall those scenes, I seem to recall the book more vividly.  Would've been season 2 right?

Mostly posting to ask what impact, if any, the mummer's show in Braavos that Arya saw a few times would have impacted her perception of Sansa, Tyrion, the Lannisters, etc.

The rewrite that Arya suggested of Cersei's purple wedding speech in 'The Bloody Hand' added Cersei pledging to get revenge against Sansa and Tyrion for Joffrey's murder (rather than just sorrow for his death, as in the first version of the script).  She suggested those changes after she went to Braavos, based on her perception of events that happened before? Harrenhal.  If Arya knows that Cersei wants to kill Sansa, why would she think Sansa was suddenly colluding with Cersei?  Unless she thinks Sansa's been duped into it...

Edited by Kleia

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So, the OP is basically arguing that Arya is acting like a spoiled brat who hasn't overcome the resentments she had at eleven? That's... actually correct.

The thing is, Arya arrived to Winterfell three minutes ago and doesn't know shit about the situation. She managed not to learn anything during her journey except Jon being the king. I mean, she shows up at WF's gates and asks 'Hello, is maester Luwin here? Oh, Lady Stark? Which Lady Stark?'. Catelyn dead for 43287 seasons. Robb and his wife dead for 43287 seasons. Rickon and Bran proclaimed dead 43287 seasons ago. Jon is a Snow and the king to boot, so his wife wouldn't be titled Lady Stark. And she asks which Lady Stark. She presumably doesn't learn that much after arriving, since it's clear Sansa and Arya don't communicate and Bran is happily stoning off under a tree.

And with not knowing anything and not really having anything constructive to offer, she starts suggesting to cut Royce's head and threatening Sansa to ruin her reputation in front of the Northern lords. [not to mention that several seasons ago everyone who read this letter was all like: 'Sansa's writing, Cersei's words, dismiss'] That is just brilliant. Yes, antagonize the guy who has an actual army, that went so well for Cersei Lannister and the Tyrells, for one. Yes, ruin your sister's authority, that will help to create... um, chaos? Conflicts? A power vacuum, since Jon is not here? Aww, your big brother Jon will sure thank you, if he ever comes back, that is.

Except she is undermining Jon too. Jon who has probably had even more childhood butthurt with Sansa than Arya had. Jon who has actually spent some time in the North and with Sansa recently, learned more about her and about the situation and still chose to trust Sansa with WF during his absence. Arya just doesn't respect Jon's judgment, despite knowing that her knowledge about just everything except for the letter (and it's been established that everyone concerned dismissed it in the past and Arya herself says that Jon would probably be understanding) is inferior to Jon's. She will throw her temper tantrum around, goddamnit!

And about Littlefinger in Harrenhall? Everyone and their rottweiler knows that LF used to be an official in the Lannister regime, that's old news.

And I'm not going to go into the 'who was snooping first and why asserting that you're not defenseless when you find the evidence someone is a homicidal maniac is OK while threatening your sister to peel off her face is not' discussion. Or how someone supposed to be a ninja shouldn't be outspied by LF. Himself. Not even using any minions.

The thing is, Arya's character has undergone such ruining in this season, that I'm beyond disliking the character herself - I'm mad at the writers who created this shit (similarly as when they made Jaime rape Cersei several seasons ago). And I just hope it's going somewhere, that they know it's ridiculous and made it such on purpose. Because if they are really trying to sell it as 'in character' or 'understandable', this is just laughable.

 

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12 minutes ago, Kleia said:

Sounds like I need to rewatch the Harrenhal? scenes where Arya is cupbearer and hears a conversation between Tywin and Littlefinger.  I don't much recall those scenes, I seem to recall the book more vividly.  Would've been season 2 right?

Mostly posting to ask what impact, if any, the mummer's show in Braavos that Arya saw a few times would have impacted her perception of Sansa, Tyrion, the Lannisters, etc.

The rewrite that Arya suggested of Cersei's purple wedding speech in 'The Bloody Hand' added Cersei pledging to get revenge against Sansa and Tyrion for Joffrey's murder (rather than just sorrow for his death, as in the first version of the script).  She suggested those changes after she went to Braavos, based on her perception of events that happened before? Harrenhal.  If Arya knows that Cersei wants to kill Sansa, why would she think Sansa was suddenly colluding with Cersei?  Unless she thinks Sansa's been duped into it...

Season 2, yes. And I don't think anyone was suggesting Sansa is colluding with Cersei. She is, for all intents and purposes, however, colluding with Littlefinger, who switches sides whenever it suits him - first the Lannisters, now the Starks. I'm not sure about the mummer's show, although Arya's suggestion seems to point to the fact that Arya prefers aggression over pacifism.

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