Jon's poor battle record

[Illiterati]

48 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree Sansa's letter is a big hole. The audience knew that the Vale army is likely to come not only from her letter but also from the scenes in Vale, where LF persuades SR to send the army.

But we don't know if Sansa received an answer from LF. That's why I can't accept all this Sansa-bashing for not telling Jon. The audience knew that the army comes, but there's no proof that Sansa knew it too. 

I agree with you 100%.  I can believe that Sansa would withhold the info from Jon because she doesn't believe he's going to come through with the Vale army.

[Lord Okra]

6 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

I agree with you 100%.  I can believe that Sansa would withhold the info from Jon because she doesn't believe he's going to come through with the Vale army.

Agreed.

Plus she doesn't know if she can trust LF at all.  That's why she doesn't just offer up the Vale forces to Jon right away......she doesn't want to rely on LF.....she wants to gather the Northern Lords and use their forces.

It is only when Jon says to Sansa that they are moving out tomorrow.....and she protests.....that she desperately sends a raven to LF......because she has no choice left.

There is no reason to tell Jon as there is no way for Sansa to know if LF is going to betray her or not.  He could say he is coming and then not come......they could alter the battle plans expecting his support and not get it........best to just assume he won't show up and make the best plans you can using the forces you can count on.

If he shows up and helps, great.  If not, at least your battle plans didn't rely on his showing up to help.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

I agree with you 100%.  I can believe that Sansa would withhold the info from Jon because she doesn't believe he's going to come through with the Vale army.

Yep. Sansa and Jon would have counted on Blackfish's help than on LF's.  Blackfish is Sansa's uncle and Stark supporter. But LF would act only if it brings him some advantage and Starks not in the position to offer him anything in return.

Besides that lords of the Vale hate LF and would be reluctant (to say the least) to join him in retaking WF.

[Kytheros]

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree Sansa's letter is a big hole. The audience knew that the Vale army is likely to come not only from her letter but also from the scenes in Vale, where LF persuades SR to send the army.

But we don't know if Sansa received an answer from LF. That's why I can't accept all this Sansa-bashing for not telling Jon. The audience knew that the army comes, but there's no proof that Sansa knew it too. 

Sansa doesn't even mention them as a possibility. Sure, she'd need to point out she doesn't know, but it'd be a reason to wait a bit, and see if they are coming, even send some scouts/patrols in the direction they'd be coming from to look for them.

 

There's no conceivable reason for her not to at least have mentioned the possibility of Vale forces. That's what makes it a plot hole. Especially since her not mentioning them is ignored afterwards - if there'd been an actual reason, it would've needed to be explored, or someone would have been shown being upset about her not mentioning the Vale forces, but because it was "plot" it gets ignored.

[snow is the man]

On 8/22/2017 at 11:12 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's obvious at this point that Jon is not a good battle field commander.  Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 
• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.
• Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

Jon is not good at anything except swinging a sword.  I don't see a place for Jon after the war with the Night's King is won.  Dany is much better at ruling and at leading than Jon.  She should have the iron throne.  A heroic death while taking down the Night's King would be a fitting way for Jon to die. 

Uh seriously?

Castle black can't be blamed on him. He told alistar to fill the tunnels with ice and alistar completly ignored it as well as jons other suggestions and jon did his best to pick up the mess and jon did the best that he could possibly do and with very few men. Saying he did poorly at that battle is ridiculous.

Winterfell was a screwup on his part and I will not argue it.

 

Beyond the wall was a stupid idea altogether and could be blamed all the way around. Jon and the crew running to that little island was the best option in a horrible situation. The whole idea was stupid and was the writers being stupid. Can't blame jon for that.

Also jon doesn't want to rule at all. He doesn't even want to be king of the north so him ruling or not is stupid. Jon could have many roles after the war. For example dany will have to have a king and given the route they are going she would essentially have a king who lets her have all the power. If you love dany so much then this is the perfect sitiuation for her and him. Jon actually would be a good king on small domestic issues I think.

[snow is the man]

4 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Sansa doesn't even mention them as a possibility. Sure, she'd need to point out she doesn't know, but it'd be a reason to wait a bit, and see if they are coming, even send some scouts/patrols in the direction they'd be coming from to look for them.

 

There's no conceivable reason for her not to at least have mentioned the possibility of Vale forces. That's what makes it a plot hole. Especially since her not mentioning them is ignored afterwards - if there'd been an actual reason, it would've needed to be explored, or someone would have been shown being upset about her not mentioning the Vale forces, but because it was "plot" it gets ignored.

If LF didn't respond then how was she right there when the knights of the vale showed up. She was right by LF side. And your right she had no reason not to tell jon. He was under the impression that they weren't gonna get anyone else since it seemed implied he asked everyone he could for help.  He says this and sansa says nothing. He would have waited for the knights of the vale

[The Golden Wolf]

4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

If LF didn't respond then how was she right there when the knights of the vale showed up. She was right by LF side. And your right she had no reason not to tell jon. He was under the impression that they weren't gonna get anyone else since it seemed implied he asked everyone he could for help.  He says this and sansa says nothing. He would have waited for the knights of the vale

Also Littlefinger had already told her that him and the Knights of the Vale were camped out at Moat Cailin (the worst defense barrier in history apparently, no wonder all the Northerners worship the Seven...oh wait) when he visited her in Mole Town outside of Castle Black. So Sansa already knew that the Vale was in the North but never told Jon because...reasons? Sansa could have saved a lot of lives if she had just told Jon about the Vale. He could have sent her, Brienne, Pod, and a small contingent to Moat Cailin and bring them to Winterfell.

Hell we are constantly being told that Sansa has become a player of the "Game" yet she actively withheld info from the North's Commander. 

I still am upset that they did not approach the Mountain clans and we never got Big Bucket's speech...the entire Northern plot last season was disappointing. You read those chapters and saw that the North was still repping the Starks hardcore and learned that "the North Remembers"and you couldn't wait to see it adapted for the small screen...and we got that instead. in some ways it was actually worse than Porne because you knew the potential greatness that was being discarded.   

[watcher of the night]

On 2017. 08. 24. at 0:21 AM, plastic throne said:

I don't see where do I call people names exactly. Words such as "idiot", "fool" and such words are not in my vocabulary here. At least not when talking/describing other users; think I did use such bad word once describing Jon though. But - no hard feelings - since I'm sure fictional character does not care about that.

It is not about Jon, it is your misinterpretation that people defending Jon would be defending the show.

Quote

Also, you should know that Jon and the Wildlings are my favorite 'folks' from ASOIAF.

That is good to hear.

Quote

And I am criticizing the show for taking unbelievable steps just to satisfy their need for "drama".

Then perhaps we have more common that it seemed.

 

Quote

For your arguments though... Just what are you trying to accomplish here really?

To point out the same thing that you said one sentence before. That the showrunners are throwing caracters under the bus just to create "drama" and to get from plot A to plot B. IMO this is why it is difficult (impossible/wrong/futile) to try to evaluate characters based on their "in show" performance because the whole story is unbeliavble.

 

Quote

So if showrunners don't know jack sh*t about the medieval battles (they do get payed quite a lot though) and they write them as such - I have to ignore how completely useless Jon from the show is as a commander?

Well it depends whether you can keep your immersion in the story or not. For me it does not work. I just cannot take any of these battles seriously. This is what I tried to point out to an other forumer that all of the supposed "great" generals of Westeros act like bumbling idiots in the show. I just cannot take it seriously that Stannis, Randyl Tarly, or even Ramsay Bolton would be that stupid as they were depicted in the show. On the other hand, if you are not bothered by such details and you can keep up your immersion, then indeed, you have to conclude that Jon Snow is an idiot.

 

Quote

Writing should have consequences on a character and his abilities, or we have to assume 'something' here again like it is suggested in other threads?

 

In a good story yes, writing should have consequences. I would say however, that this is not a good story anymore. For many reasons, just like many other forumers I cannot take this story seriously, I am only here for the "endgame" and for the dragons.

 

Quote

Unlike you, I gave exact arguments why I feel this way. Actual ones, not meta.

What kind of argument would you like? That it is not a good story or that Jon is good commander? I have no such argument on the later "in show", I just pointed out that he was portrayed in a hopless situation which no none could hope to win (unless the opponent does something utterly stupid).

 

Quote

And since we're debating what they "tried to show with BoB", I'll tell you right here as an extra on top of this "vale saving the day". Ever since he was resurrected he wasn't himself, melancholic, even pleaded Mel to never again try to ress him again, so we have this really suicidal Jon at the beginning of the battle (his charge). However during the course of battle, at the one - lowest point suffocating - when he is just about to give up, he finds the strength in him to live and symbolically climbs/claws his way up to take a deep breath. Really good idea but poor execution because in process to get there they made him a terrible commander. They had this scene in their heads first and then they resolved everything around it to move him there. They did the same in the latest episode with that frozen lake; they even said/confirmed it so.

In this case, I do not see what are we arguing about. You are saying the same thing as I do. The writing is bad, they are just connect plot-twist to plot-twist without regard to realism or character consitency. How can you keep your immersion?

As for the battles I can responde if you would like it, but imho it is kind of pointless in the light of the above. It is really upto whether you can keep your immersion in the story or not.

[Texas Hold Em]

22 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Sansa doesn't even mention them as a possibility. Sure, she'd need to point out she doesn't know, but it'd be a reason to wait a bit, and see if they are coming, even send some scouts/patrols in the direction they'd be coming from to look for them.

 

 

Sansa doesn't mention it because she's a selfish idiot. 

[Kytheros]

11 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Sansa doesn't mention it because she's a selfish idiot. 

If that were solely the case, I'd have expected someone to have brought up her not mentioning the Knights of the Vale.

As is, I'd prefer to categorize that as yet another, really, gaping plot hole for the furtherance of the scene/visual that Dan&Dave wanted to have happen, no matter how it screws with established characters and continuity.

[Texas Hold Em]

3 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

If that were solely the case, I'd have expected someone to have brought up her not mentioning the Knights of the Vale.

As is, I'd prefer to categorize that as yet another, really, gaping plot hole for the furtherance of the scene/visual that Dan&Dave wanted to have happen, no matter how it screws with established characters and continuity.

Maybe Sansa was concerned that if Jon knew, he would try to get them to follow his "strategy".  Which Sansa may have guessed would be a disaster.   As the title of the topic says, Jon has a poor battle record and so why would you want the Vale army to follow his lead.  But even with all of that, Sansa is selfish.

[Megorova]

On 23.08.2017 at 6:12 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black. 
• Winterfell.
• Beyond the Wall.

Robb Stark said "I have won every battle, yet somehow I'm losing the war ".

Jon Snow lost all battles. But in Episode 7 he's saying "There's only one war that matters". And he will win that war. Other battles are insignificant.

Also even though Jon lost those battles, he benefited from all of them: Castle Black - he became Lord Commander, Winterfell - he became The King in The North, beyond The Wall - Dany fell in love with him (she had feelings for him even before that expedition, but they became much stronger after she nearly lost him).

Furthermore Gods LOVE Jon.

After battle at Castle Black they sent Stannis just in time to save Jon. At Winterfell knights of the Vale also arrived at the most critical moment - few more minutes of that jamming and Jon would've suffocated. Beyond the Wall Dany and dragons flew thru space and time, and saved him again. Not to mention Deus Ex Machina uncle Benjen's timely arrival.

In books ritual thru which Jon was brought back to life is called kiss of fire. Lord of Light got the hots for Jon.

Old gods made Jon's brother a Three Eyed Raven, and Many Faced god made his sister a No one - they gifted Jon with the strongest supporters.

Jon Snow is one lucky bastard  

[Megorova]

On 23.08.2017 at 0:34 PM, Mikkel said:

 he has a bit of a hero complex.

Add to that a Messiah complex.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Old gods made Jon's brother a Three Eyed Raven, and Many Faced god made his sister a No one - they gifted Jon with the strongest supporters.

Now I can't wait to see what the Black Goat of Qohor is going to do to Sansa for him.

[Kytheros]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

In books ritual thru which Jon was brought back to life is called kiss of fire. Lord of Light got the hots for Jon.

Old gods made Jon's brother a Three Eyed Raven, and Many Faced god made his sister a No one - they gifted Jon with the strongest supporters.

Jon Snow is one lucky bastard  

No, the Kiss of Fire is how Beric gets brought back by Thoros. We even saw it when Beric and the Hound fought back ... whenever it was Season 3, I think.

Also, Thoros bringing Beric back from death via the Kiss of Fire was originally an accident, and was supposed to be a funerary rite. After it brought Beric back once, Thoros just kept giving him the Kiss. There was no conscious intent to bring Beric back, it's just something that happened.

Melissandre did something completely different to bring Jon back - there was a ritual cleansing and then a verbal incantation/invocation, repeated several times, with the deliberate and conscious intent of resurrecting Jon from death. There was no Kiss of Fire involved in bringing Jon back. Plus, Mel brought Jon back at the Wall, which nominally has preservative properties.

[Mikkel]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Add to that a Messiah complex.

Nah, that's Dany's deal 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 8/22/2017 at 11:12 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's obvious at this point that Jon is not a good battle field commander.  Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 
• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.
• Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

Jon is not good at anything except swinging a sword.  I don't see a place for Jon after the war with the Night's King is won.  Dany is much better at ruling and at leading than Jon.  She should have the iron throne.  A heroic death while taking down the Night's King would be a fitting way for Jon to die. 

Jon is not any good at ruling.  Jon is not any good at commanding.  If the show had any logic, his decision to give Karhold and Last Hearth to two children will bite him in the ass.  Those castles should have been given to experienced leaders.  I would like to see Jon die in the battle against the white walkers. 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Jon is incompetent.  He deserves to die.  He should die fighting the white walkers.

[Mikkel]

Just now, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon is incompetent.  He deserves to die.  He should die fighting the white walkers.

Gee, why don't you make your point again? I don't think you're said it often enough.

[Lurid Jester]

11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Gee, why don't you make your point again? I don't think you're said it often enough.

Sometimes a person's passion demands they immediately post a follow up to a post that they literally just made.  

You knw.. for 'reasons'.