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future plans?


Graydon Hicks

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Well in my opinion by the end pretty much 60% of the major houses will be either completly destroyed or reduced to children. Dany's best bet would be to create an absolute monarchy with a parliment formed from the major houses which could take part in ruling certain things. Right know it is a feudal system but creating an absloute monarhcy with a small parliment would be most likely to work for the best or just an absloute monarchy. Westeros isn't ready for a democracy. They still believe in divine right type stuff.

Ironically the problem with westeros is that it is so big. The land beyond the wall is supposed to be the size of canada according to GRRM. If you look at the map of westeros the land beyon the wall looks small in comparrison to the north. So westeros is like afira and asia combined in size. You then have to remember your using old school technology to do everything and that means it's hard to do anything in a sensible time frame. There is just too much. If dany was smart she would give the north their independence to help with that problem since it doesn't contribute much to the rest of westeros except land. By cutting that size she would be able to concentrate on ruling the other kingdoms properly and since the north doesn't really have the men or resources to really pose a threat to her. 

The sheer size of westeros is a big reason why the feudal system was set up in the first place.

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33 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Well in my opinion by the end pretty much 60% of the major houses will be either completly destroyed or reduced to children. Dany's best bet would be to create an absolute monarchy with a parliment formed from the major houses which could take part in ruling certain things. Right know it is a feudal system but creating an absloute monarhcy with a small parliment would be most likely to work for the best or just an absloute monarchy. Westeros isn't ready for a democracy. They still believe in divine right type stuff.

Ironically the problem with westeros is that it is so big. The land beyond the wall is supposed to be the size of canada according to GRRM. If you look at the map of westeros the land beyon the wall looks small in comparrison to the north. So westeros is like afira and asia combined in size. You then have to remember your using old school technology to do everything and that means it's hard to do anything in a sensible time frame. There is just too much. If dany was smart she would give the north their independence to help with that problem since it doesn't contribute much to the rest of westeros except land. By cutting that size she would be able to concentrate on ruling the other kingdoms properly and since the north doesn't really have the men or resources to really pose a threat to her. 

The sheer size of westeros is a big reason why the feudal system was set up in the first place.

actually, the wall is about 300 miles in length. i found a size comparison map, and i think that north to south, westeros is about as long as the US is from east to west.

and ye, the time it would to take to travel that kind of distance is immense, but in terms of pure communication, the use of ravens resolves much of the problems that plagued the roman empire. for the romans to send messages they had to use a courier system of riders, and by the time a message went from rome the city to, say Iberia, weeks to months might have passes. the use of raven to carry messages reduces that time to a days to weeks frame.

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13 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

actually, the wall is about 300 miles in length. i found a size comparison map, and i think that north to south, westeros is about as long as the US is from east to west.

and ye, the time it would to take to travel that kind of distance is immense, but in terms of pure communication, the use of ravens resolves much of the problems that plagued the roman empire. for the romans to send messages they had to use a courier system of riders, and by the time a message went from rome the city to, say Iberia, weeks to months might have passes. the use of raven to carry messages reduces that time to a days to weeks frame.

I heard GRRM said that himself.  The map is misleading I admit. The wall however may be three hundred miles long but it doesn't cover the entire distance from sea to sea. It stops at the mountains that were impossible to build on. The mountains are incredibly tough terrain so many few raiders actually use it.

 

Also what happens if someone needs to get to one part of the realm to another or an army has to. Yes sending a message by raven would save time but some things can't be sent by raven because they are too secret or you need someone who can negotiate a situation and they can't really do that by raven. I just think she would be better off giving up some land

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8 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I heard GRRM said that himself.  The map is misleading I admit. The wall however may be three hundred miles long but it doesn't cover the entire distance from sea to sea. It stops at the mountains that were impossible to build on. The mountains are incredibly tough terrain so many few raiders actually use it.

 

Also what happens if someone needs to get to one part of the realm to another or an army has to. Yes sending a message by raven would save time but some things can't be sent by raven because they are too secret or you need someone who can negotiate a situation and they can't really do that by raven. I just think she would be better off giving up some land

what i mean with the wall is that you can use it as the base scale to measure the continent. and as to the distance and travel time. what hampered rome was that by the time a message, by courier, reached an army or or person or ect, that need for that person to be marching was already a month too late. with ravens, it is relatively quick to tell someone you need to start marching, sure, they might be a while in getting to you, but at least they are starting within a week or so of the message being sent in the first place.

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On 8/22/2017 at 11:46 PM, Graydon Hicks said:

say dany and jon survive, kill night king, take the iron throne, start making little stark/targ babies, what then? she wants to break the wheel, that game of politics that the nobility plays, at the cost of the common folk in westeros, what would they set up instead? dany isnt going to give up her authority as monarch, but what can she do to curb the power of the great houses? and about the free folk? the unsullied? the dothraki?

Giving up her authority as monarch is the last thing she should do. That's the only thing that can take power away from the nobles.

There's really two separate things she can plausibly do.

The first one is actually pretty easy. From what we're told, Aegon V's reforms were pretty sensible, and the only problem was that he didn't have the power to push them through. Dany has the Unsullied, who are stronger and more loyal than any royal army in Westeros or real-life feudalism. That won't last forever, but it doesn't have to—in a few decades, the Unsullied will be retiring and dying, but her initial reforms will be solidly established, and a whole generation of lords will have grown up with the idea that the monarch can make those kinds of changes.

Long-term, though, this isn't enough; eventually her grandson or whoever will be stupid or malicious or weak and things will end up worse than before she arrived. But, as Tyrion explained to her (probably the wisest thing anyone said in all of S7), building a new system is going to take longer than a single lifetime. Even if she could magically intuit an ideal system (which is impossible—nobody has even remotely the sufficient background to invent a modern democracy, or enlightened anarchy or Marxist socialism or whatever else anyone might want), she couldn't possibly implement it overnight.

What she can do is start laying the foundations for a better system to come later. An independent court system (initially only as an auxiliary to lords' justice), regular Great Council meetings with an advisory Commons Council that can eventually become a Parliament, a stronger guild system, even just new royal vows and titles that imply that the monarch represents the dignity of the people rather than the grace of god… Those are all things she could accomplish in his first decade that might only have small benefits in the short term, but are essential to long-term progress.

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48 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Giving up her authority as monarch is the last thing she should do. That's the only thing that can take power away from the nobles.

There's really two separate things she can plausibly do.

The first one is actually pretty easy. From what we're told, Aegon V's reforms were pretty sensible, and the only problem was that he didn't have the power to push them through. Dany has the Unsullied, who are stronger and more loyal than any royal army in Westeros or real-life feudalism. That won't last forever, but it doesn't have to—in a few decades, the Unsullied will be retiring and dying, but her initial reforms will be solidly established, and a whole generation of lords will have grown up with the idea that the monarch can make those kinds of changes.

Long-term, though, this isn't enough; eventually her grandson or whoever will be stupid or malicious or weak and things will end up worse than before she arrived. But, as Tyrion explained to her (probably the wisest thing anyone said in all of S7), building a new system is going to take longer than a single lifetime. Even if she could magically intuit an ideal system (which is impossible—nobody has even remotely the sufficient background to invent a modern democracy, or enlightened anarchy or Marxist socialism or whatever else anyone might want), she couldn't possibly implement it overnight.

What she can do is start laying the foundations for a better system to come later. An independent court system (initially only as an auxiliary to lords' justice), regular Great Council meetings with an advisory Commons Council that can eventually become a Parliament, a stronger guild system, even just new royal vows and titles that imply that the monarch represents the dignity of the people rather than the grace of god… Those are all things she could accomplish in his first decade that might only have small benefits in the short term, but are essential to long-term progress.

very good. and her ability to enforce those changes shouldnt  end when the unsullied retire or die. she could use the unsullied as the foundation to build a royal army loyal to the crown and house targaryen. thats been a weakness of her house in the past, they lack much of soldiery that swears directly to the targaryens, especially compared to the tyrells, lannisters, and starks, and have to rely heavily on their bannermen. but building a regular army that directly serves house targaryen and the iron throne would be a major step in centralizing the power on the crown while working to strip it from the lords.

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2 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

but building a regular army that directly serves house targaryen and the iron throne would be a major step in centralizing the power on the crown while working to strip it from the lords.

Well, she needs a careful balance here. Leaving a strong and permanent absolute monarchy for her heirs pretty much guarantees one of them will turn it into a tyranny. Also, too strong a royal army can lead to a late Roman situation where the army starts installing their favorite heirs, or just a military junta.

Also, the reason almost nobody had strong royal armies is, how do you pay for them? If you start taxing your vassals extra, for the purpose of building an army strong enough that they can't rebel… that's a tough sell. (In the long run, of course, you want to build up a middle class that you can tax, and then feudalism is no longer necessary, but that's not going to happen in a generation.)

But, all that being said, the fact that it's tricky doesn't mean it's not worth doing, it means it's worth Dany starting to plan it now, when she's got a few decades of leeway from the Unsullied, and when she can use the immediate memory of the Great War and the mess of succession was to help sell people, and so on…

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16 hours ago, falcotron said:

Well, she needs a careful balance here. Leaving a strong and permanent absolute monarchy for her heirs pretty much guarantees one of them will turn it into a tyranny. Also, too strong a royal army can lead to a late Roman situation where the army starts installing their favorite heirs, or just a military junta.

Also, the reason almost nobody had strong royal armies is, how do you pay for them? If you start taxing your vassals extra, for the purpose of building an army strong enough that they can't rebel… that's a tough sell. (In the long run, of course, you want to build up a middle class that you can tax, and then feudalism is no longer necessary, but that's not going to happen in a generation.)

But, all that being said, the fact that it's tricky doesn't mean it's not worth doing, it means it's worth Dany starting to plan it now, when she's got a few decades of leeway from the Unsullied, and when she can use the immediate memory of the Great War and the mess of succession was to help sell people, and so on…

well, for all we know, in an westeros not suffering from the debt accrued by littlefinger's book cooking, and robert's extravagances,  there might actually be money in the treasury to pay for it. joff wanted to build a royal army, but cerise pointed out the fact that most of the people he would using to make that force would be more loyal to the lords of the lands they came from, not to the king who might be sending them to kill that lord. so maybe the money is there, but the issue was more in the subject of soldier loyalties being in question.

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