Gaston de Foix

The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread IV

389 posts in this topic

New thread. 

I've been dipping and browsing in the glossary.  One interesting find, which may be a clue as to the location of the Heron Spear, is the entry about the Holy Sagas.  For some reason my kindle reader won't let me copy and paste, but it appears that the Holy Sagas are a  travelog of Seswatha's wanderings,  ending at Sakarpus:

"and lastly, the Annal Sakarpa or "the Refugees Song", as it is sometimes called, the strange account of the city of Sakarpus during the Apocalypse."  The theory here would be that the Heron Spear left in Cenei was a fake of some sort. 


Question about the Unification Wars: there appear a number of military set-backs in the Unification Wars, which are to my mind revealed  to suggest that Kellhus was not as indomitable and/or in control of events as previously understood.  But such explanations  overlook the fact that Kellhus could use assassination as a military strategy more or less at will right?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I was going to post this in the last thread, but forgot and figured I'd go on ahead an post it now.

Before I even began to read TDTCB back in 11' - 12', while glossing over Bakker threads I had seen the acronym TSTSNBN. I didn't know what it meant at the time and never asked until I got caught up with WLW. But, it seems to me, that even as far back as 2011 everyone knew that TUC was not the end. That a 3rd series was planned. I think we're the confusion comes in is from a statement Bakker released on TPB about, "TUC would finish the series as conceived by his 17 year old self, and that in doing that he could die happy if another word was never written."

Obviously, as he started writing TSA the story grew in the telling. It went from a trilogy, to 2 trilogies and a duology. Even then the 2nd trilogy grew into 4 books. He knew long ago and made several statements that TUC wasn't "the end". It was just his original vision from a 17 year old dungeon master. Since, I've started the series, I have never had any thought that TUC would be "the end", because TSTSNBN has been discussed since before I even read a book in the series. Why does everyone seem to forget this? And take his above statement that TUC was meant to be the end? I clearly didn't. I knew there was more to come.

That being said, I loved the book. I will love anything he writes in the world of Earwa. But, I had my issues also with the books. I don't think Mimara and Akka got the roles they should have, but considering the next series takes place only weeks after the events of TUC, I'd assume Akka, Esme and Mimara will be the main character and the fate of the world will lie in their hands. It seems they was there to witness, as Bakker said. And their plot will be what the 3rd series is about, for the most part. But, from info received from those that attended the Con, the Nameless Dunyain Boy (Bakker seemed pissed that people was calling him Crabicus, he's supposed to remain unnamed.) will be the focus of the 1st book of The No-God series. I find that very intriguing.

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bathroom musing (though not in the shower):  Whenever there's a thread about internal monologues on Reddit, there always pop up people in the comments exclaiming that they don't think in words/aren't even capable of making a voice in their heads (conversely I also read someone commenting recently that they didn't realize people can actually imagine images in their heads like "people do in the movies.")  

Would such people straight up be incapable of sorcery (other than the Psukhe, I guess)?   Or would visualizing words like one of those fancy youtube lyric videos work?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

:rolleyes::bang:

 

Yea, I'm assuming this is to my post, very articulate response. Though, the usual. The only time you seem to offer anything is when Kalbear makes an appearance and you can piggyback his responses. Have your own thoughts, add your own voice. If you have an argument to any of my comments, express those. We can be cordial, I can except your retorts. But, we've (meaning you've agreed with Kalbear) already went over this, isn't an argument. Just childish emoji's seem to be your extensive knowledge on the subject at hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I was going to post this in the last thread, but forgot and figured I'd go on ahead an post it now.

Before I even began to read TDTCB back in 11' - 12', while glossing over Bakker threads I had seen the acronym TSTSNBN. I didn't know what it meant at the time and never asked until I got caught up with WLW. But, it seems to me, that even as far back as 2011 everyone knew that TUC was not the end. That a 3rd series was planned. I think we're the confusion comes in is from a statement Bakker released on TPB about, "TUC would finish the series as conceived by his 17 year old self, and that in doing that he could die happy if another word was never written."

Obviously, as he started writing TSA the story grew in the telling. It went from a trilogy, to 2 trilogies and a duology. Even then the 2nd trilogy grew into 4 books. He knew long ago and made several statements that TUC wasn't "the end". It was just his original vision from a 17 year old dungeon master. Since, I've started the series, I have never had any thought that TUC would be "the end", because TSTSNBN has been discussed since before I even read a book in the series. Why does everyone seem to forget this? And take his above statement that TUC was meant to be the end? I clearly didn't. I knew there was more to come.

That being said, I loved the book. I will love anything he writes in the world of Earwa. But, I had my issues also with the books. I don't think Mimara and Akka got the roles they should have, but considering the next series takes place only weeks after the events of TUC, I'd assume Akka, Esme and Mimara will be the main character and the fate of the world will lie in their hands. It seems they was there to witness, as Bakker said. And their plot will be what the 3rd series is about, for the most part. But, from info received from those that attended the Con, the Nameless Dunyain Boy (Bakker seemed pissed that people was calling him Crabicus, he's supposed to remain unnamed.) will be the focus of the 1st book of The No-God series. I find that very intriguing.

Preach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

44 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, I'm assuming this is to my post, very articulate response. Though, the usual. The only time you seem to offer anything is when Kalbear makes an appearance and you can piggyback his responses. Have your own thoughts, add your own voice. If you have an argument to any of my comments, express those. We can be cordial, I can except your retorts. But, we've (meaning you've agreed with Kalbear) already went over this, isn't an argument. Just childish emoji's seem to be your extensive knowledge on the subject at hand.

Dude, I can only repeat the same facts so many times. Just keep ignoring them. This isn't going to go anywhere.

Edited by Darth Richard II

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

That being said, I loved the book. I will love anything he writes in the world of Earwa. But, I had my issues also with the books. I don't think Mimara and Akka got the roles they should have, but considering the next series takes place only weeks after the events of TUC, I'd assume Akka, Esme and Mimara will be the main character and the fate of the world will lie in their hands. It seems they was there to witness, as Bakker said. And their plot will be what the 3rd series is about, for the most part. But, from info received from those that attended the Con, the Nameless Dunyain Boy (Bakker seemed pissed that people was calling him Crabicus, he's supposed to remain unnamed.) will be the focus of the 1st book of The No-God series. I find that very intriguing.

Per @redeagl, the next book is entirely Crabicus. Does that change your opinion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I adore the name crabicus. Much better than naming him (pretentious).

i like the books, I like the way they make me think about belief, it's the same feeling I get from the Tiffany Aching books by Pratchett, what he calls "second thoughts" thinking about how you are thinking. (Much better books by the way, deeper too, crivens!)

i have written some of the wackiest craziest theories it's fun, I never expected many of them to play out or be really meaningful, like my theory that chorae are crafted from the wombs of cunoroi women. It's a fun way to explore the world's ideas, but I didn't expect them to matter. I always figured the author was going to introduce the "horcrux" element that no one sees coming in the first five books, but it is the crucial piece to both indicating the direction of the end game and also explaining much of the prior events motivations and maneuvering.

I've known about TSTSNBN for years, but I've also known Bakker has said that the end of this series was a conclusion, and the original conclusion. So I expected a conclusion. I got it, it was fine, I was starting to really like it.

the problem i have at this moment in time is that Bakker behaves like a troll. His first instinct is always to troll. If he gets asked a question, there's a very good chance he is going to troll the reader, see for example my question about the rape of omindalea. He was trolling me about previous troll behavior he had done at the original three seas, just to keep it going. Because that's what trolls do, they always keep trolling. 

Look at the infamous bit on this forum. Troll behavior. Followed up immediately by a public social media campaigns to troll vox day and troll requires only hate. Because he likes to troll. he knows enough to know that you never persuade any person with trolling. Rubbing a rabid puppies nose in poop never accomplishes anything positive (no matter if starship troopers says otherwise). But trolling presumably gratifies him, because he has consistently and continually pursued troll strategies for a decade or more. 

watching his Ever changing reactions to the responses to the book play out in real time the past few weeks has been like watching a stereotypical case study of online troll behavior. I do not like his troll antics. It doesn't change how I feel about the books. 

Crabicus is really a delightful name for a silly and poorly executed element. David and Dan can laugh at themselves and acknowledge their own silly and poorly executed elements, "pods magic cock," was a line in last nights show, Bakker can never laugh at himself, which is sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Per @redeagl, the next book is entirely Crabicus. Does that change your opinion?

No? I said the 1st book was focused on Crabicus. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, lokisnow said:

the problem i have at this moment in time is that Bakker behaves like a troll. His first instinct is always to troll. If he gets asked a question, there's a very good chance he is going to troll the reader, see for example my question about the rape of omindalea. He was trolling me about previous troll behavior he had done at the original three seas, just to keep it going. Because that's what trolls do, they always keep trolling. 

I do agree with this to an extent. Some questions he will come out and give straightforward answers, others he will purposely be as ambiguous as he is in the books. I guess you can call it trolling if you like. But, he has no obligation to tell us anything other than whats in the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I was going to post this in the last thread, but forgot and figured I'd go on ahead an post it now.

Before I even began to read TDTCB back in 11' - 12', while glossing over Bakker threads I had seen the acronym TSTSNBN. I didn't know what it meant at the time and never asked until I got caught up with WLW. But, it seems to me, that even as far back as 2011 everyone knew that TUC was not the end. That a 3rd series was planned. I think we're the confusion comes in is from a statement Bakker released on TPB about, "TUC would finish the series as conceived by his 17 year old self, and that in doing that he could die happy if another word was never written."

Obviously, as he started writing TSA the story grew in the telling. It went from a trilogy, to 2 trilogies and a duology. Even then the 2nd trilogy grew into 4 books. He knew long ago and made several statements that TUC wasn't "the end". It was just his original vision from a 17 year old dungeon master. Since, I've started the series, I have never had any thought that TUC would be "the end", because TSTSNBN has been discussed since before I even read a book in the series. Why does everyone seem to forget this? And take his above statement that TUC was meant to be the end? I clearly didn't. I knew there was more to come.

That being said, I loved the book. I will love anything he writes in the world of Earwa. But, I had my issues also with the books. I don't think Mimara and Akka got the roles they should have, but considering the next series takes place only weeks after the events of TUC, I'd assume Akka, Esme and Mimara will be the main character and the fate of the world will lie in their hands. It seems they was there to witness, as Bakker said. And their plot will be what the 3rd series is about, for the most part. But, from info received from those that attended the Con, the Nameless Dunyain Boy (Bakker seemed pissed that people was calling him Crabicus, he's supposed to remain unnamed.) will be the focus of the 1st book of The No-God series. I find that very intriguing.

I came into TUC knowing there would be a third series and that it would likely end on a cliffhanger (I assumed the No God would come back). That wasn't what make me dislike the book so much. Even if there is a third series, I still feel that the Aspect-Emperor has to stand on on its own in a way that the Prince of Nothing did; sure, there was more coming, but The Thousandfold-Thought at least answered many questions, wrapped up the main plot elements of that trilogy, and pointed the way forward. The main characters all had arcs, and affected the plot in some way.

This series... not so much. If Akka and Mimara are two of the main protagonists of this four book series, then I expect them to do something in this four book series. I'm tired of fantasy authors thinking they need two to four books with tons of tedium so that characters can do something relevant in the next book/series. And the same feels true for half of the characters in the Aspect Emperor, from Sorwheel to Cnaiur.

And the Aspect-Emperor also fails to wrap up the major questions of the series. I don't particularly care that we don't learn everything about the Consult and the No-God and the world in this book. But aside from the Dunsult twist, I felt like I learned next to nothing. Hell, I have no clue what Kellhus' motives were, and those were to me the central mystery of the series, or what the nature of his deal with Ajokli was. So TUC combines a lack of payoff for character arcs with a lack of payoff for mysteries/plot arcs. Combine that with what I consider to be truly awful prose and style in the last two books (though I know there's some disagreement here), and these are the reasons I think this book and the entire series in the end were failures, not because they ended with cliffhangers and didn't resolve everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

No? I said the 1st book was focused on Crabicus. 

But you also said that Akka, Mimara and Esme will be the 'main' characters, and both things can't be true. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

But you also said that Akka, Mimara and Esme will be the 'main' characters, and both things can't be true. 

Well, in the other books I guess. Bakker said, and it's in a thread at SA, at the Con that making the 1st book about Crabicus would be funny to him. Because, of all the backlash about Mimara and Akka and other plotlines, just make em wait even more, something along those lines. You lurk over there anyway, look it up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Well, in the other books I guess. Bakker said, and it's in a thread at SA, at the Con that making the 1st book about Crabicus would be funny to him. Because, of all the backlash about Mimara and Akka and other plotlines, just make em wait even more, something along those lines. You lurk over there anyway, look it up. 

I stopped bothering lurking over there, honestly. I haven't checked it out in a while other than after the fanaticcon thing they did, and that was just to get the basic info. 

That would tie well into the @lokisnow 'everything he does is a troll' thing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, lokisnow said:

*snip*

Crabicus is really a delightful name for a silly and poorly executed element. David and Dan can laugh at themselves and acknowledge their own silly and poorly executed elements, "pods magic cock," was a line in last nights show, Bakker can never laugh at himself, which is sad.

Holy shit, I think you nailed the problem on the head. Dude takes himself way to seriously and can't take criticism at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I came into TUC knowing there would be a third series and that it would likely end on a cliffhanger (I assumed the No God would come back). That wasn't what make me dislike the book so much. Even if there is a third series, I still feel that the Aspect-Emperor has to stand on on its own in a way that the Prince of Nothing did; sure, there was more coming, but The Thousandfold-Thought at least answered many questions, wrapped up the main plot elements of that trilogy, and pointed the way forward. The main characters all had arcs, and affected the plot in some way.

This series... not so much. If Akka and Mimara are two of the main protagonists of this four book series, then I expect them to do something in this four book series. I'm tired of fantasy authors thinking they need two to four books with tons of tedium so that characters can do something relevant in the next book/series. And the same feels true for half of the characters in the Aspect Emperor, from Sorwheel to Cnaiur.

And the Aspect-Emperor also fails to wrap up the major questions of the series. I don't particularly care that we don't learn everything about the Consult and the No-God and the world in this book. But aside from the Dunsult twist, I felt like I learned next to nothing. Hell, I have no clue what Kellhus' motives were, and those were to me the central mystery of the series, or what the nature of his deal with Ajokli was. So TUC combines a lack of payoff for character arcs with a lack of payoff for mysteries/plot arcs. Combine that with what I consider to be truly awful prose and style in the last two books (though I know there's some disagreement here), and these are the reasons I think this book and the entire series in the end were failures, not because they ended with cliffhangers and didn't resolve everything.

:bang::bang:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Holy shit, I think you nailed the problem on the head. Dude takes himself way to seriously and can't take criticism at all.

Are we lamenting that Bakker doesn't do much dick jokes now??! :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Are we lamenting that Bakker doesn't do much dick jokes now??! :huh:

No, its not the lack of humor in the books, it's he himself seems to lack one. Seems way to serious all the time, but I guess that could be him trolling?

 

Edit: Also whoever wrote that blurb needs to be fired. It practically screams THIS IS THE FINAL BOOK FOREVER AND EVER and if you're not one of us crazy internet people I can see how you would think it is the end.

Edited by Darth Richard II

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.